FB: Liberty League

[Regulator]

If teaching was such an easy job, wouldn't it be in higher demand?  I don't mind that they make what they make or get the time off they do.  The only thing that bothers me is the accountability....

If a teacher isn't adding value to a classroom, then get rid of them.  There should be 2 things done to rank teachers.  A baseline taken at the beginning of the year and a test at the end of the year. (I believe the year end test is already done in NY)  Administrators should have enough baseline data from around the state to fairly judge every teacher in the "system".  Of course, you would need to take into account demographics (inner-city, grants, budget), but at the end of the day, at least you will know who you want on your liferaft.

This of course roll up as well.  If, as an administrator, your school is falling well behind the curve versus the benchmark, then you need to go.....

Run a school like a business if you want to improve education.....

Exactly becasue our buisness world is in such great shape and businesses lately have been so successful. Please...

Ok, sure, then look at darwinism......or sports.....or what about simply picking a kickball team.
If you are good, you get chosen on the team.  If you aren't pulling your weight, then you sit on the bench.

I personally believe the same thing should happen in the classroom.  (pretty simple concept, really)

[dlippiel]

If teaching was such an easy job, wouldn't it be in higher demand?  I don't mind that they make what they make or get the time off they do.  The only thing that bothers me is the accountability....

If a teacher isn't adding value to a classroom, then get rid of them.  There should be 2 things done to rank teachers.  A baseline taken at the beginning of the year and a test at the end of the year. (I believe the year end test is already done in NY)  Administrators should have enough baseline data from around the state to fairly judge every teacher in the "system".  Of course, you would need to take into account demographics (inner-city, grants, budget), but at the end of the day, at least you will know who you want on your liferaft.

This of course roll up as well.  If, as an administrator, your school is falling well behind the curve versus the benchmark, then you need to go.....

Run a school like a business if you want to improve education.....

Exactly becasue our buisness world is in such great shape and businesses lately have been so successful. Please...

Ok, sure, then look at darwinism......or sports.....or what about simply picking a kickball team.
If you are good, you get chosen on the team.  If you aren't pulling your weight, then you sit on the bench.

I personally believe the same thing should happen in the classroom.  (pretty simple concept, really)

Now were talking regulator, I think that is a very valid point. One I am incredibly in favor of. Yet this also leads us to the question of how we assess teachers and who will asses teachers. I love how everyone thinks they are an expert at teaching because they were in school once. It is a very complicated question and believe me if I have learned anything thus far it is that stadardized tests are for the birds. They are good for partially assessing teacher, students etc but not close to the whole answer. I always challenge people to come and see my wonderful kids. To look at them at the end of the year and tell me they haven't grown as learners and people. Yet if they don't pass some standarized test that is completely unrealistic for them, then what? I fail or they fail? It is just a tough question all around.

[Regulator]

If you take a baseline coming in to the year and a test leaving the year then you will see how much incremental growth that the students have developed.  If the growth isn't high enough to get them to the "unrealistic" test, then the administrator should answer to that.  Is it that the test is too hard for the age student it's being given to?  Does the cirriculum not match the test?  I have to ask, how unrealistic is a test if 80% of all students in that age group and grade pass it?

If the baseline from the previous year isn't high enough, then the teacher responsible for that would be held accountable when the students are tested the previous year. (and fail)
If the teacher hasn't taken the students from the baseline to an acceptable level, they would be dealt with.

I am just sick of someone being considered a great teacher (manager) based on people liking them.  And the whole "wonderful kids" comment struck a nerve, because at the end of the day, being wonderful doesn't always get the job done.

[dlippiel]

If you take a baseline coming in to the year and a test leaving the year then you will see how much incremental growth that the students have developed.  If the growth isn't high enough to get them to the "unrealistic" test, then the administrator should answer to that.  Is it that the test is too hard for the age student it's being given to?  Does the cirriculum not match the test?  I have to ask, how unrealistic is a test if 80% of all students in that age group and grade pass it?

If the baseline from the previous year isn't high enough, then the teacher responsible for that would be held accountable when the students are tested the previous year. (and fail)
If the teacher hasn't taken the students from the baseline to an acceptable level, they would be dealt with.

I am just sick of someone being considered a great teacher (manager) based on people liking them.  And the whole "wonderful kids" comment struck a nerve, because at the end of the day, being wonderful doesn't always get the job done.

Reg-just the fact that you state "unrealistic" tests tells me you really don't know what these kids are asked to do, performance wise, to say they have been successful during a certain year and/or the teacher has been successful. See what I believe you are missing here is that teaching is not a bar graph, its not a profession that is in anyway related to a buisness, at least in a classroom. It is about 80 % social and 20% data based. I just would love to see all the "haters" who love to bitch like ****ing babies about teachers come and spend a day in a classroom with some very challenged students. The funny thing is is that everyone here is a ****ing expert because they ahve gone through school so they know exactly what needs to be done. Our social structure in this country is ****ed. People take no responsiblity for there actions anymore period, especially in urban areas (parenting). I mean suburban schools across the nation are doing fantastic, hands ****ing down, no questions needed. I urban areas children have little to no experience at home with math or exposure to literature at a young age. Then when they are taught all day long they go right back into the world from where they came. A world that is surronded by violence, family disfunction, and drugs. And yet its teachers fault that these kids are not scoring the same as suburban students so are schools are failing? Give me a ****ing break. Be as cold and close minded as you want and think that teachers are failing across the country. How can "wonderful kids" strike a nerve? It strikes a nerve with me that these kids, who are so troubled, are seen as failures because htey don't pass a ****ing standardized test. And their teachers who love them and give them the only caring they ever get are failures because of a test. Bull****. Be a hard liner who takes nothing into account all you want. You don't know and or don't want to hear what is really going on. I am ****ing done with this debate.

[Regulator]

Let's be rational here.  I started this whole thing out by stating "Of course, you would need to take into account demographics (inner-city, grants, budget), but at the end of the day, at least you will know who you want on your liferaft."

The only reason I stated "unrealistic" is the fact that that is the term you gave it here- "Yet if they don't pass some standarized test that is completely unrealistic for them, then what? I fail or they fail? It is just a tough question all around."

I know what's going on and I am being very realistic about this whole thing.  Have a walked a mile in your shoes, absolutely not and I'm not going to pretend I can even scratch the surface of some of the stuff you deal with on a day to day basis as I'm not sure I could handle it.

The fact of the matter is, if we are "Ok" with letting children through the system or TEACHERS underperforming without meeting a set criteria, then children are set up to become mediocre in life, which by default takes money out of my pocket.  I don't have an answer to do with children that cannot perform up to a specified level, absolutely not....that is the issue here.

This whole thing is about underperforming teachers, not excuses.

Am I an expert on education, no, never claimed to be.*  Do I have a say on this as a tax payer- YOU BET!

*PS- I've watched dangerous minds like 45 times, could that make me an expert???

[dlippiel]

Let's be rational here.  I started this whole thing out by stating "Of course, you would need to take into account demographics (inner-city, grants, budget), but at the end of the day, at least you will know who you want on your liferaft."

The only reason I stated "unrealistic" is the fact that that is the term you gave it here- "Yet if they don't pass some standarized test that is completely unrealistic for them, then what? I fail or they fail? It is just a tough question all around."

I know what's going on and I am being very realistic about this whole thing.  Have a walked a mile in your shoes, absolutely not and I'm not going to pretend I can even scratch the surface of some of the stuff you deal with on a day to day basis as I'm not sure I could handle it.

The fact of the matter is, if we are "Ok" with letting children through the system or TEACHERS underperforming without meeting a set criteria, then children are set up to become mediocre in life, which by default takes money out of my pocket.  I don't have an answer to do with children that cannot perform up to a specified level, absolutely not....that is the issue here.

This whole thing is about underperforming teachers, not excuses.

Am I an expert on education, no, never claimed to be.*  Do I have a say on this as a tax payer- YOU BET!

*PS- I've watched dangerous minds like 45 times, could that make me an expert???

Sometimes I need to take a pill to simmer I here ya reg and absolutely as a tax payer you have the right. I think you do make many valid points. Hope I didn't over read into it. Sometimes I definitely suck at discussion because I get so into them and go a bit overboard. I am just very passionate thats all 

[PBR...]

If you take a baseline coming in to the year and a test leaving the year then you will see how much incremental growth that the students have developed.  If the growth isn't high enough to get them to the "unrealistic" test, then the administrator should answer to that.  Is it that the test is too hard for the age student it's being given to?  Does the cirriculum not match the test?  I have to ask, how unrealistic is a test if 80% of all students in that age group and grade pass it?

If the baseline from the previous year isn't high enough, then the teacher responsible for that would be held accountable when the students are tested the previous year. (and fail)
If the teacher hasn't taken the students from the baseline to an acceptable level, they would be dealt with.

I am just sick of someone being considered a great teacher (manager) based on people liking them.  And the whole "wonderful kids" comment struck a nerve, because at the end of the day, being wonderful doesn't always get the job done.

Reg-just the fact that you state "unrealistic" tests tells me you really don't know what these kids are asked to do, performance wise, to say they have been successful during a certain year and/or the teacher has been successful. See what I believe you are missing here is that teaching is not a bar graph, its not a profession that is in anyway related to a buisness, at least in a classroom. It is about 80 % social and 20% data based. I just would love to see all the "haters" who love to bitch like ****ing babies about teachers come and spend a day in a classroom with some very challenged students. The funny thing is is that everyone here is a ****ing expert because they ahve gone through school so they know exactly what needs to be done. Our social structure in this country is ****ed. People take no responsiblity for there actions anymore period, especially in urban areas (parenting). I mean suburban schools across the nation are doing fantastic, hands ****ing down, no questions needed. I urban areas children have little to no experience at home with math or exposure to literature at a young age. Then when they are taught all day long they go right back into the world from where they came. A world that is surronded by violence, family disfunction, and drugs. And yet its teachers fault that these kids are not scoring the same as suburban students so are schools are failing? Give me a ****ing break. Be as cold and close minded as you want and think that teachers are failing across the country. How can "wonderful kids" strike a nerve? It strikes a nerve with me that these kids, who are so troubled, are seen as failures because htey don't pass a ****ing standardized test. And their teachers who love them and give them the only caring they ever get are failures because of a test. Bull****. Be a hard liner who takes nothing into account all you want. You don't know and or don't want to hear what is really going on. I am ****ing done with this debate.

dlipp no hatin' on u here from us we all know how tough your job is...pbr and mpbr are very involved in our kids school life like chaperone and mpbr is a homeroom mom etc...what drives us a little crazy is all the money we pay for school taxes and teachers have no accountability/responsiblity. pbr goes to the school board meetings and watches the union rep tell all the media outside how the union is all for a baseline and acountability. yet when inside all they do is shoot down every proposal and bring nothing to the table themselves. it gets more than frustrating when the rest of us are held accountable/responsible in the workplace and if we dont perform we are gone. (YES we know u agree w/ us on most of the union issues) short of sleeping w/ a student or caught w/ children porn we cant get rid of bad teachers. perfect example the union asked the school board to tax the people for the losses in their pension fund? r u f'n kidding me? people are losing their jobs left and right and these a holes had the gaul to ask for the taxpayers to pick up their losses due to mismanagement and them not holding their fund managers accountable(hmmm see what happens when not held accountable)...pbr had to just about be physically restrained....it just gets frustrating when you shovel tons of school tax money and have almost no say because the union heads refuse to budge on any accountability issues.  BUT we are not hatin' on you ..just the system and the slacker teachers, YOU have passion about what you do and YOUR what we do want in our schools teaching our kids and shaping our countries future

[SaintsFAN]

Taxing the community for losses in the pension fund?  That's unbelievable that was even brought up.  Props to you, PBR for not going postal in that meeting..

[Knightstalker]

Let's be rational here.  I started this whole thing out by stating "Of course, you would need to take into account demographics (inner-city, grants, budget), but at the end of the day, at least you will know who you want on your liferaft."

The only reason I stated "unrealistic" is the fact that that is the term you gave it here- "Yet if they don't pass some standarized test that is completely unrealistic for them, then what? I fail or they fail? It is just a tough question all around."

I know what's going on and I am being very realistic about this whole thing.  Have a walked a mile in your shoes, absolutely not and I'm not going to pretend I can even scratch the surface of some of the stuff you deal with on a day to day basis as I'm not sure I could handle it.

The fact of the matter is, if we are "Ok" with letting children through the system or TEACHERS underperforming without meeting a set criteria, then children are set up to become mediocre in life, which by default takes money out of my pocket.  I don't have an answer to do with children that cannot perform up to a specified level, absolutely not....that is the issue here.

This whole thing is about underperforming teachers, not excuses.

Am I an expert on education, no, never claimed to be.*  Do I have a say on this as a tax payer- YOU BET!

*PS- I've watched dangerous minds like 45 times, could that make me an expert???

Sometimes I need to take a pill to simmer I here ya reg and absolutely as a tax payer you have the right. I think you do make many valid points. Hope I didn't over read into it. Sometimes I definitely suck at discussion because I get so into them and go a bit overboard. I am just very passionate thats all 

KS used to teach music privately in a music store.  KS had individual students and a small class of 6 kids that I was teaching music theory to.  After doing this for a year during college KS realized he did not want to teach.  The main reason was the parents.  KS was teaching in a music store in a NJ suburb that is very well off.  Kids wouldn't practice or study but these parents came to the store screaming at the owner and KS because their kids are lazy and it was our fault.

I have seen what Dlip is talking about with the urban kids.  Earlier this year KS was late for work for a week straight because some ghetto momma was showing up at the Stalkerettes school every morning and threatening a little girl ghetto mamma said pushed her daughter.  The school administrators and security just let this women scream, swear and threaten students, teachers and parents and they did nothing.  Finally at the end of the week a parent called the cops and the principle and other administrators got all bent out of shape.

Reg, KS agrees with holding teachers accountable, but KS also believe and research has proven that Music, Art and phys ed classes help students in their other classes.  

The teachers KS learned the most from growing up where the strict teachers that most of the students did not like but our parents loved.

[Knightstalker]

The Board of Ed and the PTA are slick in Jersey City.  They don't announce the meetings until the last minute and then they always schedule them for a time when most parents, especially those in a single parent household couldn't possibly come.  They also send notifications out so they reach the homes the day of or the day before the meeting.  That way they get very little public input and do whatever the hell they want.

[Regulator]

Reg, KS agrees with holding teachers accountable, but KS also believe and research has proven that Music, Art and phys ed classes help students in their other classes.  

You missed the part when I said that it should be up to the administrators and teachers for what, how and when they teach it.  They should be held accountable for "making the number".

Dlip- I agree with PBR, you sound like a stand up guy who takes this seriously and personally.  My targets are the teachers who have as much business in front of a classroom as does PeeWee Herman.

[dlippiel]

Reg, KS agrees with holding teachers accountable, but KS also believe and research has proven that Music, Art and phys ed classes help students in their other classes.  

You missed the part when I said that it should be up to the administrators and teachers for what, how and when they teach it.  They should be held accountable for "making the number".

Dlip- I agree with PBR, you sound like a stand up guy who takes this seriously and personally.  My targets are the teachers who have as much business in front of a classroom as does PeeWee Herman.

I appreciate that guys I really do. As I think about the whole "taxpayer" deal, which of course I am also a part of, school taxes are ridiculous and the point is very valid when one says, "heah I am paying a ton of school tax and teachers who are not up to par are sliding by." I hear that and it is very interesting because of this conversation it does make me think of some of the teachers I know (honestly there are not many) who really don't do ****. Then the Union's back them up. And yet still the school taxes go up each year. That is cleary crazy and is very frustrating. Teacher's should be held accountable and I think that in my earlier statements my passion may have clouded that point. I guess I just feel like becasue of these few awful teachers the rest of us are underappreciated some times and lumped in with them ya know. Not to toot my own horn here but I decided to stop drinking the last semester of my senior year at UVM, stopped really partying, and made a lot of changes to my life because felt that if I was going to be a teacher I needed to walk the walk and talk the talk. To this day (aside from my potty mouth) I feel I really try to not only be a good teacher in the classroom but a constant role model out of the classroom. I know it sounds a bit sappy but it really drives my passion in the classroom and in life. Its seven years later, I still don't drink, party, or **** around and I just give my best to my kids. So I guess if anything I wanted to make it clear that I agree with you guys about accountability and really welcome it, yet at the same time I just wanted to make sure you guys saw how hard some of us work.

[Knightstalker]

Reg, KS agrees with holding teachers accountable, but KS also believe and research has proven that Music, Art and phys ed classes help students in their other classes.  

You missed the part when I said that it should be up to the administrators and teachers for what, how and when they teach it.  They should be held accountable for "making the number".

Dlip- I agree with PBR, you sound like a stand up guy who takes this seriously and personally.  My targets are the teachers who have as much business in front of a classroom as does PeeWee Herman.

I appreciate that guys I really do. As I think about the whole "taxpayer" deal, which of course I am also a part of, school taxes are ridiculous and the point is very valid when one says, "heah I am paying a ton of school tax and teachers who are not up to par are sliding by." I hear that and it is very interesting because of this conversation it does make me think of some of the teachers I know (honestly there are not many) who really don't do ****. Then the Union's back them up. And yet still the school taxes go up each year. That is cleary crazy and is very frustrating. Teacher's should be held accountable and I think that in my earlier statements my passion may have clouded that point. I guess I just feel like becasue of these few awful teachers the rest of us are underappreciated some times and lumped in with them ya know. Not to toot my own horn here but I decided to stop drinking the last semester of my senior year at UVM, stopped really partying, and made a lot of changes to my life because felt that if I was going to be a teacher I needed to walk the walk and talk the talk. To this day (aside from my potty mouth) I feel I really try to not only be a good teacher in the classroom but a constant role model out of the classroom. I know it sounds a bit sappy but it really drives my passion in the classroom and in life. Its seven years later, I still don't drink, party, or **** around and I just give my best to my kids. So I guess if anything I wanted to make it clear that I agree with you guys about accountability and really welcome it, yet at the same time I just wanted to make sure you guys saw how hard some of us work.

Dlip, you must have an extreme amount of patience, KS knows he would have a hard time holding back from grabbing some parents by the throat and slapping them silly.  The same would hold true for some administrators.  When MKS was teaching in the public schools she had to hold KS back one time at a Christmas party when KS wanted to take her vice-principle outside and choke him until his eyes bulged out.  He was a pompous ass who was basically useless and liked to intimidate new teachers.  KS was at just the right level of JD and ML to take exception for something stupid he said to the special ed inclusion teacher MKS worked with.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

RE: Teaching

Wow, couldn't you guys have chosen a less sensitive subject to debate? 

I have an interesting perspective on this I think.  I worked in various management positions for 13 years after college (Retail, Manufacturing and Software Support) and recently became a teacher (two years ago).  Both my parents were teachers and my wife is as well.  I used to have a very Pro-Business view on how our schools should be run.  I thought that teachers should be held accountable for the students grades and be paid, and promoted on that as well.

After teaching for two years (middle school and I am so HAPPY to be doing this now) I now understand the other side.  The majority of teachers that I work with do have the passion and dedication that dlippiel describes and I have not been able to find a fair and just way to base their value specifically based on a Test or some sort of learning achievement.  There is so much that goes into it and so many variables that it becomes very difficult to design a system to fairly measure all.  We have teachers who only teach Average Kids, others who teach gifted (Advanced) and then another subset that has mixed classes (average with ESE students mixed in). How do you measure that fairly when the third group had class sizes of 30-35 students (with a Co-Teacher in some classes) with the gifted teacher who only had 24-27 students.  The gifted students have the self-motivation to do better so those teachers can spend more of their time teaching, rather than counseling.  My wife, on the other hand, was a Co-Teacher on an 8th grade team and spent a majority of her time counseling her students who were dealing with some SERIOUS issues at home that I never had to deal with growing up (even though my parents divorced when I was young).

Our population is over 65% Free & Reduced Lunch and we actually had a family living in a barn and their only electricity was a generator that they plugged different appliances into it depending on the immediate need.  My wife could easily teach the gifted students who actually were motivated and did their homework without constant reminders but would that make her a better teacher than when she was helping a girl who was raped by her uncle, gave birth during the school year, and then had to come back to the same school and try to finish 8th grade when none of the students knew her real story (they all thought she just got pregnant by a boyfriend)?

Sorry for the rambling, but I wanted to try add something valuable to the discussion.

[Jonny Utah]

I had to throw my 2 cents here on this teaching thing.

I taught in a nice surburban high school for 5 years.  I subbed, worked in guidance and then taught history over that 5 year period.  What people don't understand is that you 100% cannot evaluate teachers on how their students do on tests.  It is that simple.  One year I had 5 classes and 2 different preps (preps mean 3 of my classes were AP and 2 were standard kids).  So I had 3 classes full of kids that went to Ivy league and nescac schools (and RPI, Union, Ithaca, Hobart), and 2 classes full of kids that had trouble graduating and never saw a college campus.  Some of those kids in the standard classes didnt show up, didnt do homework and didnt do well on tests.  Some of them failed because they skipped tests, some of them failed because they let off a stinkbomb in class and got expelled.  You could never tell what kind of teacher I was by looking at the scores. grades, or papers of the standard level classes, never.  It would have been unfair to me, unfair to the kids and unfair to the educational system.

And even if that was the way you evaluated kids, why would anyone want to teach in an urban system?  Or why would I want to take on those standard level classes?  Again, it simply doesn't work.  So I have to say to Reg, there is no "number".  I could have had my AP kids sit down and read every class, and have them watch movies every other class, and they still probably would have gotten into great schools and done well on the AP exams.  Then I could have worked harder than any other teacher in the standard level classes and the results would not have been much different.  You could have even put the two best teachers in the country in that class with me, and the results or "numbers" would have been worlds apart from the "numbers" of my AP kids.  And Im talking about if you included improvement in that number.  There are HS classes that simply cant pass the math that he couldnt pass in 8th grade.


I don't want to put words in Regs mouth, but I think Reg has a problem with bad teachers, and the tenure and union system does protects bad teachers.  He is 100% right there, that is the biggest problem with bad teachers.  But its not as simple as some number system to evaluate kids.

My opinion on what will work is every teachers nightmare.  Cameras in the classroom.  You then of course have to have administrators who know how to evaluate.

You need some union protection, as you dont want the principals niece replacing the good teacher, and that will happen.

I guess my bottom line here is that people have thought long and hard on how to figure out the problems with education in this country, and how to get rid of bad teachers.  Testing students and then ranking teachers based on those tests or "numbers" as Reg put it however is not the answer.

And also Reg, teachers are in high demand up here in MA for many subjects.  A freind of mine that still works in the same system that I worked at was on a committee for a new opening for a Social Studies teacher.  They had 400+ applications for that position.  Granted 200 of them were people that had no chance at getting it, but 100 of them were Ivy league type educational grad students with previous teaching experience, and 99 of them wont get the job.