FB: Liberty League

[SJFF82]

I don't have a problem with a coach leaving for a better situation.  There's a difference between what Brian Kelly (built a program up, took it to the top of the Big East) did and Kiffin (come for one year, embarass at least this UT fan, potentially saddle the program with five years worth of problems and run).  Contract's in the business world do have non-competes.  They could enforce that.  

The problems I have are a)  Kiffin is a degenerate worthy of the 8th circle and b) if it's really a business, which I believe it is at this point, separate it from these institutions that are supposed to educate not only in the classroom, but finish off the process of creating men and woman who can stand up and produce in society.  I blame the administrations for being spineless and gutless and avoiding doing their duty as leaders of young men and women (as opposed to college coaches, who I wouldn't put that on any more than Charles Barkley is a role model).  These schools are non-profits and all benefit from government aid (even private schools, who run up the cost of tuition on the backs of gov't backed borrowing) in various forms (tax exemption while building $1Bn + endowments).  Sever the college football programs from the institutions and bring some pride and leadership back to these institutions of higher learning.  The taxpayers don't deserve and shouldn't put up with this dlip.  

this is a great point that I have argued countless times in other arenas.  Why do we continue to sit back and swallow the tuition increases in the name of inflation, meanwhile the endowments keep growing.  I chose to stop donating to my law school...wrote a letter to the dean indicating my reasons why.  Hold tuition steady with the donations and stop upgrading the water fountains.

['gro]

KS would hang himself from the yardarm before joining the Canadian anything.

What? Have you tried their bacon?  ****ING AMAZING!

Don't forget the strippers.  Especially in Montreal.

Good times in Montreal when your underage in the States. And you can touch.


p.s. saw MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice, and En Vogue at the KNICKERBOCKER arena back in 6th grade.

[Knightstalker]

KS would hang himself from the yardarm before joining the Canadian anything.

What? Have you tried their bacon?  ****ING AMAZING!

Don't need to become canadian to enjoy their bacon and stripper.

[Doid23]

I'm a Tennessee fan (for now, my in-laws are trying to move me into GT fully) and have to say good riddance.  That dood is destined for SMU style sanctions somewhere.  The only guy I've ever seen lose a PR battle to Al Davis since John Madden was relevant.  It seems like he's putting together a great team around him (Orgeron and Chow), but I have zero doubt that USC is beyond screwed.  

I have to say, it seems like stuff is getting more out of control than ever in the NCAA, big time athletics relationship.  Between "abusive" coaches (still think these guys are a bunch of crybabies) and weak spined administrators (a friend of my father in law's knows the AD and Leach and knows the AD didn't want to pay Leach last year, but didn't have the spine to stand up to the masses after a top ten finish, so they gave him the big $ extension), I'm hoping there's finally an overhaul of this whole bulls**t system.  I love DI, don't compare it to DIII, like so many here, but this s**t is out of control.  The NCAA is a joke.  Major college sports are minor league systems.  Do we really belive that the BB and FB guys are any different than in David Thompson's (BB) and late 50's Duke FB era (Dook notoriously bought an Orange Bowl appearance, flat out then)?  It's perception vs. reality, only now they can't keep a lid on it and it's going to cost the schools.  Ultimately, it's a good thing.  There's no school that is truly, GAAP, profitable (even the ones that claim a profit have whacked non-profit accounting that doesn't factor in subsidized borrowing costs from floating GO bonds to build FB only stadiums, for example), which means, as a consequence, that taxpayers subsidize this s**t, just like building new ballparks and arenas (the one area where I agree with Californians, who won't pony up for new ballparks, which are a waste of dough) instead of getting their fiscal hosue in order.  The SUNY people all wanted big time sports, but honestly, I think they're the only state that's got it right, where they spread the resources around better and get more in state kids a decent education vs. a Berkeley or UVA who takes a ton of out of state kids.  

Rant over.  

What he said. +K

Ha...82 gave a similar rant about the NCAA D1 style when Brian Kelly jumped ship on UC for ND and Doid didnt like my rant too much.  What has changed Doid?

Try not to take this all personally. Nothing changed, just a fundamentally different situation. The dick part of the move is that he came for one year, got the program (potentially) in trouble, then moved on. He left the program WORSE than when he inherited it, then ran. He absolutely has the right to go, just speaks to the quality of the man.

As to BK, the same way that Cincy got BK, is the same way ND got BK. But BK ADDED great value to Cincy, and certainly left the program much better than the one he inherited. I found great irony that Cincy once again took out the Central Mich coach to fill their vacancy. Just like I see the karmic justice in the fact that Tennessee got rid of a solid coach (Fulmer) whose loyalty to the school was unquestioned, in search of some more wins. The same can be said of my beloved Wolverines, showed Lloyd Carr the door and sometimes you get what you get. The reason I agreed with the rant is that the kids are screwed here, and the NCAA is shown once again to have their head up their ass.

So no change in my position. I fundamentally believe in a persons right to find the best opportunity for them. Loyalty from companies/ school is non-existent, and people are delusional to believe in it anymore. How about Cincinnati, if BK had gone 12 - 36 over 3 years, but ran a great program with great grad rates, no problems, etc., how loyal would they have been?

[dlippiel]

Some of you guys are kinda ridiculous on this coaching matter.  If you don't like the guys or the programs that's one thing, but you can't fault these guys for going to greener pastures. 

Case in point, you are back in the job hunt market...your 'ideal' job is unobtainable.  Maybe it's filled, maybe they can't justify a new position, whatever the case.  So, you take a different job, that is a good one, but maybe not everything you hoped.  HR from Company 1 calls you 6 months later with a better offer, and it's the job you've wanted...What do you do?  Are you loyal to the company you originally took the job with?  I know my answer.

It's all about timing, and these guys are going to take the opportunity when they can, because that opportunity might not come along for a long time if ever.  You guys are so ****ing critical of everyone because they take different jobs.  It's a business for crying out loud.

Honestly dlip could give a ****in **** about what a coach does regarding his choice of jobs etc. When he posted his artile on Kiffen he was just having some fun. dlip just thinks Kiffen is a bit of a tool and definitely unproven as a coach. At least unproven enough to warrent an immediate hiring at USC. Yet dlip also heard he was far from their first choice; more like #4. To dlip it is blatantly ****ing obvious that colleges and companies alike will ****in toss your ass aside at the drop of a hat for multiple reasons. When it comes to business and jobs, at least on the D1 coaching level dlip thinks coaches are so expendable that when they get a golden opportunity they should take it. Obviously in dlips ideal sporting world he would love for coaches, universities, and athletes as a whole to show complete loyalty, personal responsibility, and accountability. Yet dlip knows better and realizes that is just not realistic.

[dlippiel]

**** if Menudo offered dlip a chance to join their group he would leave his current boy band in a minute! Just the buisness fellas...

[Doid23]

[
this is a great point that I have argued countless times in other arenas.  Why do we continue to sit back and swallow the tuition increases in the name of inflation, meanwhile the endowments keep growing.  I chose to stop donating to my law school...wrote a letter to the dean indicating my reasons why.  Hold tuition steady with the donations and stop upgrading the water fountains.

And see, sometimes I even agree with you. College's have the same problems that homeowners had over the past decade, rather than take the money and secure you financial standing, and ensure your future, they raid the equity to spruce up the joint, get a new car, take a vacation, build a  library, research center, etc. There's an article out there about Harvard's endowment/ investment portfolio that's just scary.

[union89]

Some of you guys are kinda ridiculous on this coaching matter.  If you don't like the guys or the programs that's one thing, but you can't fault these guys for going to greener pastures. 

Case in point, you are back in the job hunt market...your 'ideal' job is unobtainable.  Maybe it's filled, maybe they can't justify a new position, whatever the case.  So, you take a different job, that is a good one, but maybe not everything you hoped.  HR from Company 1 calls you 6 months later with a better offer, and it's the job you've wanted...What do you do?  Are you loyal to the company you originally took the job with?  I know my answer.

It's all about timing, and these guys are going to take the opportunity when they can, because that opportunity might not come along for a long time if ever.  You guys are so ****ing critical of everyone because they take different jobs.  It's a business for crying out loud.

U89 agrees....my problem is with USC naming a snake it's head coach when they are already looking down the barrel of the NCAA.

[lewdogg11]

Some of you guys are kinda ridiculous on this coaching matter.  If you don't like the guys or the programs that's one thing, but you can't fault these guys for going to greener pastures. 

Case in point, you are back in the job hunt market...your 'ideal' job is unobtainable.  Maybe it's filled, maybe they can't justify a new position, whatever the case.  So, you take a different job, that is a good one, but maybe not everything you hoped.  HR from Company 1 calls you 6 months later with a better offer, and it's the job you've wanted...What do you do?  Are you loyal to the company you originally took the job with?  I know my answer.

It's all about timing, and these guys are going to take the opportunity when they can, because that opportunity might not come along for a long time if ever.  You guys are so ****ing critical of everyone because they take different jobs.  It's a business for crying out loud.

U89 agrees....my problem is with USC naming a snake it's head coach when they are already looking down the barrel of the NCAA.

U89 loves him some Alabama Black Snake...


Love the Urban Dictionary...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Alabama%20Black%20Snake

[Frank Rossi]

I was a Kiffin defender when the Al Davis situation blew up in Oakland because it just felt like Davis was causing his team to implode year-in and year-out.

I took a step back when I heard some of Kiffin's buffoon-like comments that caused the SEC to reprimand him and threaten him with worse punishments because he began to validate Al Davis's issues with Kiffin.  Basically, Davis keyed in on Kiffin's hot-headed, disrespectful and at times inept behavior.  Do you guys not remember this call while Kiffin was still at Oakland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXTvv4mjur0

However, I gave Kiffin a chance and was thoroughly unimpressed with the image and impression he attempted to put forward as a college head coach while at Tennessee in '09.  He just seemed juvenile in so many ways -- maybe it was the visor and the hissy fits he'd throw (worse than Spurrier's when he was younger even).  After the season, though, I said to myself that while Davis may have had some points about Kiffin, he was just trying to adapt to his third job in as many years and wasn't doing a tremendous job at it yet.

Now, after watching the antics of the last week, I hate to say it -- AL DAVIS WAS RIGHT.  Kiffin has really put together a major dog-and-pony show over the last couple years.  Why USC would want to perpetuate it is really beyond me.  Whatever luster Kiffin had while he was at USC is missing in its entirety right now.  

I have no problem with people following their dream jobs, as LD pointed out earlier.  For instance, I pretty much would lay $1,000 down that says that if the Notre Dame basketball job opens up, Siena Head Coach Fran McCaffery would jump over to Notre Dame in an instant (he used to be an assistant there and has a lot of ties to the ND program).  The difference is that, in the meantime, McCaffery hasn't poisoned the Siena program.  Instead, he has made sure that both Siena and his resume both appear with dignity and success.  He isn't sitting there assuming that his ties to ND will automatically place him in the driver's seat.  He isn't helping to destroy teams, programs and the futures of some talented athletes in the name of trying to help his own rear end at all times.

The negatives that McCaffery has avoided, though, are negatives that Kiffin has exemplified over the last few years.  Like I said, I supported the guy -- but eventually, you have to start looking at the culture he creates in his wake and realize that the problem isn't everyone else; it's Kiffin.  Until he accepts that fact, I don't see things getting better, especially at USC.

[PBR...]

philadelphia and the world lost an icon and 1 of the greatest voices yesterday when teddy pendergrass passed away. paralyzed from the waist down after his car accident in '82 teddy still was out singing regularly. he lost his battle w/ colon cancer yesterday and the world is a lesser place today. r.i.p. teddy. here he singing 1 of his many famous songs from his days w/ harold melvin and the blue notes...wake up everybody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itUrjWNGnZQ

EDIT: another classic w/ teddy on lead...if you dont know me by now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Ni7LGXW7g&feature=related

[union89]

Some of you guys are kinda ridiculous on this coaching matter.  If you don't like the guys or the programs that's one thing, but you can't fault these guys for going to greener pastures. 

Case in point, you are back in the job hunt market...your 'ideal' job is unobtainable.  Maybe it's filled, maybe they can't justify a new position, whatever the case.  So, you take a different job, that is a good one, but maybe not everything you hoped.  HR from Company 1 calls you 6 months later with a better offer, and it's the job you've wanted...What do you do?  Are you loyal to the company you originally took the job with?  I know my answer.

It's all about timing, and these guys are going to take the opportunity when they can, because that opportunity might not come along for a long time if ever.  You guys are so ****ing critical of everyone because they take different jobs.  It's a business for crying out loud.

U89 agrees....my problem is with USC naming a snake it's head coach when they are already looking down the barrel of the NCAA.

U89 loves him some Alabama Black Snake...


Love the Urban Dictionary...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Alabama%20Black%20Snake

Thank goodness the description does not come with pictures.

[SJFF82]

I'm a Tennessee fan (for now, my in-laws are trying to move me into GT fully) and have to say good riddance.  That dood is destined for SMU style sanctions somewhere.  The only guy I've ever seen lose a PR battle to Al Davis since John Madden was relevant.  It seems like he's putting together a great team around him (Orgeron and Chow), but I have zero doubt that USC is beyond screwed.  

I have to say, it seems like stuff is getting more out of control than ever in the NCAA, big time athletics relationship.  Between "abusive" coaches (still think these guys are a bunch of crybabies) and weak spined administrators (a friend of my father in law's knows the AD and Leach and knows the AD didn't want to pay Leach last year, but didn't have the spine to stand up to the masses after a top ten finish, so they gave him the big $ extension), I'm hoping there's finally an overhaul of this whole bulls**t system.  I love DI, don't compare it to DIII, like so many here, but this s**t is out of control.  The NCAA is a joke.  Major college sports are minor league systems.  Do we really belive that the BB and FB guys are any different than in David Thompson's (BB) and late 50's Duke FB era (Dook notoriously bought an Orange Bowl appearance, flat out then)?  It's perception vs. reality, only now they can't keep a lid on it and it's going to cost the schools.  Ultimately, it's a good thing.  There's no school that is truly, GAAP, profitable (even the ones that claim a profit have whacked non-profit accounting that doesn't factor in subsidized borrowing costs from floating GO bonds to build FB only stadiums, for example), which means, as a consequence, that taxpayers subsidize this s**t, just like building new ballparks and arenas (the one area where I agree with Californians, who won't pony up for new ballparks, which are a waste of dough) instead of getting their fiscal hosue in order.  The SUNY people all wanted big time sports, but honestly, I think they're the only state that's got it right, where they spread the resources around better and get more in state kids a decent education vs. a Berkeley or UVA who takes a ton of out of state kids.  

Rant over.  

What he said. +K

Ha...82 gave a similar rant about the NCAA D1 style when Brian Kelly jumped ship on UC for ND and Doid didnt like my rant too much.  What has changed Doid?

Try not to take this all personally. Nothing changed, just a fundamentally different situation. The dick part of the move is that he came for one year, got the program (potentially) in trouble, then moved on. He left the program WORSE than when he inherited it, then ran. He absolutely has the right to go, just speaks to the quality of the man.

As to BK, the same way that Cincy got BK, is the same way ND got BK. But BK ADDED great value to Cincy, and certainly left the program much better than the one he inherited. I found great irony that Cincy once again took out the Central Mich coach to fill their vacancy. Just like I see the karmic justice in the fact that Tennessee got rid of a solid coach (Fulmer) whose loyalty to the school was unquestioned, in search of some more wins. The same can be said of my beloved Wolverines, showed Lloyd Carr the door and sometimes you get what you get. The reason I agreed with the rant is that the kids are screwed here, and the NCAA is shown once again to have their head up their ass.

So no change in my position. I fundamentally believe in a persons right to find the best opportunity for them. Loyalty from companies/ school is non-existent, and people are delusional to believe in it anymore. How about Cincinnati, if BK had gone 12 - 36 over 3 years, but ran a great program with great grad rates, no problems, etc., how loyal would they have been?

I hear ya Doid, but the only problem I had with BK that you didnt address was that he left on the eve of the bowl game.  So while he left the program in a better place than when he started, he still pulled an unloyal move in leaving.  Now, if he discussed leaving with his team and they gave him their blessing then maybe a different story.  My only dog in this fight is loyalty and dignity. Those principles can be applied evenly to any one of these coaching situations, regardless of what happens on the football field before, during and after they leave. 

Frank gives a good example with the Siena coach.  If he chooses to leave someday, as long as he does it with dignity and doesnt bolt on his team mid season or the night before the Big Dance, then so be it.

[PBR...]

ouch...

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2010/01/13/misunderstood-kiffin-hes-even-worse-than-we-thought/?cxntfid=blogs_mark_bradley_blog

[SaintsFAN]

Some of you guys are kinda ridiculous on this coaching matter.  If you don't like the guys or the programs that's one thing, but you can't fault these guys for going to greener pastures.  

Case in point, you are back in the job hunt market...your 'ideal' job is unobtainable.  Maybe it's filled, maybe they can't justify a new position, whatever the case.  So, you take a different job, that is a good one, but maybe not everything you hoped.  HR from Company 1 calls you 6 months later with a better offer, and it's the job you've wanted...What do you do?  Are you loyal to the company you originally took the job with?  I know my answer.

It's all about timing, and these guys are going to take the opportunity when they can, because that opportunity might not come along for a long time if ever.  You guys are so ****ing critical of everyone because they take different jobs.  It's a business for crying out loud.

It is called honor and integrity and honoring the contract you signed.  When I joined the Navy I signed a six year contract, 4 years active duty, 2 years inactive reserve.  I couldn't change my mind a year in decide I wanted to go to do something else.  Also if I was in one job and offered a better job I would give the current company a chance to match the offer and position.

KS what if you had to join the Canadian Navy first though because there were no openings in the US navy.  Then the US navy called and said they had an opening....?

Or the Mexican Navy?

_{The Mexican Navy}

Seriously, let's not measure your military experience and serving the country with coaching college football, or having any other corporate job.  As JT mentioned, you can be loyal your entire career and pass up other opportunities, and when the time is right, they won't hesitate to stick it up your butt.  

FYI - I think the Mexican Navy would be dope.

OK forget the military, but it is still about honor and integrity, most of us don't sign contracts when we take new jobs.  We may sign an offer letter that usually states either party can terminate at anytime.  A contract is to be honored.  

The only thing that SF knows you have honor is a Non Compete Agreement and even then, there are ways around it.

Good times in Montreal when your underage in the States. And you can touch.

nice