FB: Liberty League

[JT]

The simultaneous economic realities of higher costs for education and collegiate football are going to force many programs to re-evaluate not only their conference affiliation but also the future of fielding a football team.

I predict some schools will opt out of collegiate football with an eye towards continuing less costly sports.

D-III teams are seldom money makers for the school but the argument may be made they bring in alumni donations and student-athlete enrollment.

Practically speaking, private, liberal arts college education, seems poised to follow the Detroit automakers into oblivion.  Each year car costs continued to rise as attention to detail suffered and overseas competitors found a way to build a better product.  The challenge facing higher education - how can they continue to balance the budget with soaring fuel costs, inflationary wage factors for well-qualified faculty and a decrease in the endowment due to stock market reverses.

Sounds like a very challenging time to be in the leadership of any higher education institution.

Lyco--

The Rev agrees with your assessment that these will be tough times for liberal arts colleges.  In fact, The Rev will turn it up a notch and say that some liberal arts colleges will have to close their doors.  They are over-priced and under-performing.  Worst of all, schools don't want to let go of subsidized programs (e.g. Trans-Gendered Studies, Wymyn's Studies, etc., etc.).  Granted those programs don't cost a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but if you add them all together and take an honest assessment of how much they bring in, they all need to be cut.

I never understood Hobart in the sense that we seem to have a large number of people in education programs.  Who in their right mind spends $50,000 a year to become a public school teacher?  Why not go to SUNY Cortland or SUNY Oneonta?  They are perfectly good schools and you can save yourself $150,000 over the course of four years.

That brings up the point of Return on Investment:  No liberal arts college will survive unless the promise of a great ROI materializes and becomes reality.  As in, when The Rev finally has kids, they are going to learn how to machine metal, weld, and other useful skills rather than go to college.  If they decide they want to go to school, they can choose an engineering program and live at home, but The Rev is not going to waste a dime on some Marxist P.O.S. teaching my kids to hate me, Free Enterprise, America, and the Church.

Oh! The Rev is fired up now!!!!

Ditto.  JT will teach his kids entepreneurship, investing, real (not white washed) history etc.,  They will earn money by doing real work  (JT started with a paper route at 10).  And they won't waste 10 hrs a day in front of the TV or computer.

[JT]

JT's Sis bailed on hosting the SB party.  Something about selling the old condo with ex-hubby.  Went over to Dad's house... SB was redeemed.  Took the Saints at +5.5.

Food was simple and good. Brought over bacon wrapped scallops.  Party was mostly football fans.  Good times.

[TheGrove]

The simultaneous economic realities of higher costs for education and collegiate football are going to force many programs to re-evaluate not only their conference affiliation but also the future of fielding a football team.

I predict some schools will opt out of collegiate football with an eye towards continuing less costly sports.

D-III teams are seldom money makers for the school but the argument may be made they bring in alumni donations and student-athlete enrollment.

Practically speaking, private, liberal arts college education, seems poised to follow the Detroit automakers into oblivion.  Each year car costs continued to rise as attention to detail suffered and overseas competitors found a way to build a better product.  The challenge facing higher education - how can they continue to balance the budget with soaring fuel costs, inflationary wage factors for well-qualified faculty and a decrease in the endowment due to stock market reverses.

Sounds like a very challenging time to be in the leadership of any higher education institution.

Lyco--

The Rev agrees with your assessment that these will be tough times for liberal arts colleges.  In fact, The Rev will turn it up a notch and say that some liberal arts colleges will have to close their doors.  They are over-priced and under-performing.  Worst of all, schools don't want to let go of subsidized programs (e.g. Trans-Gendered Studies, Wymyn's Studies, etc., etc.).  Granted those programs don't cost a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but if you add them all together and take an honest assessment of how much they bring in, they all need to be cut.

I never understood Hobart in the sense that we seem to have a large number of people in education programs.  Who in their right mind spends $50,000 a year to become a public school teacher?  Why not go to SUNY Cortland or SUNY Oneonta?  They are perfectly good schools and you can save yourself $150,000 over the course of four years.

That brings up the point of Return on Investment:  No liberal arts college will survive unless the promise of a great ROI materializes and becomes reality.  As in, when The Rev finally has kids, they are going to learn how to machine metal, weld, and other useful skills rather than go to college.  If they decide they want to go to school, they can choose an engineering program and live at home, but The Rev is not going to waste a dime on some Marxist P.O.S. teaching my kids to hate me, Free Enterprise, America, and the Church.

Oh! The Rev is fired up now!!!!

Lyco80, I think the move by Susquehanna is based purely on pride and ego. They were so eager to jump the MAC ship a few years back that they were more than happy to spend a few years up north rather than waste away with your alma mater, my alma mater, and the rest of the underperforming MAC leftovers  A great shame, as we always enjoyed great games with the Crusaders- they always had poor records in my time in blue and gold, but they played as hard as anyone we faced on the schedule. Everyone on our coaching staff got along well, the schools were close so that many parents could make the trip, and that beautiful campus had lots of pretty girls....I remember having a wonderful pregame chat before our 2005 game out there with this delightful Italian exchange student...Coach Shep and the bunch would have gotten a good laugh at that one

As you and I both know, often times the decisions that involve athletic conference affiliations are made at a "higher level" than the athletic department offices. In that case, the Crusaders can take it and have fun...if their new home gives them a warm, fuzzy feeling inside, good for them. The only disappointment I have is that it may impact the Stagg Hat game- do you have any info on this?

Rev,

I think you may be jumping to an early judgement on private, liberal arts schools. Having graduated from one, and being currently enrolled in grad school at another (non-football) such school, I can say that the last few years have not been the best, but the panic buttons at both my current school and my alma mater are far from sounding the "abandon ship" signal. In fact both schjools have recently added new academic programs that are among the first in the region. At the end of the day, kids can always go to Ship, Bloom, ESU or elsewhere if they want to be a teacher as you said, but there are other programs unique to the private schools that will always attract students.

In my case, I see myself as no different than many other students at the schools in question. I could have gotten a similar degree from any number of state schools and saved a bundle, but I would not trade my four years on the banks of the Susquehanna for ANY other school, public, private, or otherwise 

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, but I can't quote from a Blackberry.

In response to my former MAC brethren, Susquehanna wasn't looking to move. We like the Liberty League. Great people, great institutions. It's been a fantastic experience. The Centennial (ironically) came back and invited us to join. In these days of high gas prices and other institutional cost-cutting moves, sadly, it makes sense. The longest trip we'll have is about 2.5 hours. Most of the CC schools are just 1.5 hours from Selinsgrove - Gettysburg's a straight shot down 15, Dickinson just a hop over to 81, for example. Can you blame us, really?

As for the Stagg Hat Trophy game, unfortunately that's on at least a one-year hiatus. Not sure when we get Lyco back on the schedule. I'll miss that game, but I want the hat back!

And as for the bolded part, G-man, just wanted to say thanks. 

[Doid23]

Yeah I thought I was the only one who actually enjoyed the game... The commercials and the halftime show sucked, though.  

As a musician TGP hates to say this but was Betty White up there with the Who?

At least some of the HOFers they've had up there in recent years a) could get it done (e.g. Bruce) and b) actually sounded good (e.g. Sir Paul).

Agreed all around.  The commercials were dookie, and The Who are mad old.  Add Elton John to the list of good ones.  He is always entertaining, can still sing, and is moderately relevant still.  All because of the nipple slip that has forever ruined an entire generation of youth.  I wonder if that generation is out burning down buildings and smoking crack this morning because of the vaunted nipple.

I'm not sure which was more offensive, the Janet Jackson nipple slip or Pete Townsend's pasty white belly...

OK, I lied, I am very clear which is more offensive. Maybe this will swing the tide back towards musicians under 80 years old.

[JT]

Yeah I thought I was the only one who actually enjoyed the game... The commercials and the halftime show sucked, though.  

As a musician TGP hates to say this but was Betty White up there with the Who?

At least some of the HOFers they've had up there in recent years a) could get it done (e.g. Bruce) and b) actually sounded good (e.g. Sir Paul).

Agreed all around.  The commercials were dookie, and The Who are mad old.  Add Elton John to the list of good ones.  He is always entertaining, can still sing, and is moderately relevant still.  All because of the nipple slip that has forever ruined an entire generation of youth.  I wonder if that generation is out burning down buildings and smoking crack this morning because of the vaunted nipple.

I'm not sure which was more offensive, the Janet Jackson nipple slip or Pete Townsend's pasty white belly...

OK, I lied, I am very clear which is more offensive. Maybe this will swing the tide back towards musicians under 80 years old.

How about Daughtry?  Why can't they get him?

[lewdogg11]

Yeah I thought I was the only one who actually enjoyed the game... The commercials and the halftime show sucked, though.  

As a musician TGP hates to say this but was Betty White up there with the Who?

At least some of the HOFers they've had up there in recent years a) could get it done (e.g. Bruce) and b) actually sounded good (e.g. Sir Paul).

Agreed all around.  The commercials were dookie, and The Who are mad old.  Add Elton John to the list of good ones.  He is always entertaining, can still sing, and is moderately relevant still.  All because of the nipple slip that has forever ruined an entire generation of youth.  I wonder if that generation is out burning down buildings and smoking crack this morning because of the vaunted nipple.

I'm not sure which was more offensive, the Janet Jackson nipple slip or Pete Townsend's pasty white belly...

OK, I lied, I am very clear which is more offensive. Maybe this will swing the tide back towards musicians under 80 years old.

How about Daughtry?  Why can't they get him?

He played before the game in the parking lot and was really good.

[SJFF82]

Super Bowl sucked...was cool seeing Garcon score though....i guess.  Bad drop turned the game around offensively for the Colts.

why did it suck?  brees was incredible. saints defense had a incredible plan on changing the strategy by the quarter so manning was never able to figure out what they were going to do. you a colts fan?

No unfortuantely, I am a Redskins fan....thought it sucked from an excitement standpoint.  Did not seem like a very hard hitting game.  A bit sloppy (with the dropped passes); only one lead change I believe...maybe 2.  Brees was great on the stat sheet, but never really got the sense he was in the midst of  a great performance while game was actually being played.

[dlippiel]

dlip thought the SB was pretty decent. He enjoyed Garcon's TD catch and watching both QB's play well. The key to dlip was NO's ability to keep Manning off the field. Brees was a ****in superstar.  This win is a good thing for the people of New Orleans.

[Ralph Turner]

Okay, so the musical chairs continue. As Pep tells the band, "Stay Tuned."

So, let's see if Pep can keep up with the game. Effective with the 2011 season:
Liberty League Lineup
Hobart
Union
St. Lawrence
Rochester
Rensselaer
Springfield
Merchant Marine
Worcester Tech

Empire Actual 8:
Alfred
Ithaca
Utica
Hartwick
Fisher
Frostburg State
Salisbury
Buffalo State(?)

Is this where everyone will sit in 2011?

No, Pep -- Springfield's move takes effect in 2012.  In 2011, LL has 7 and E8 has 9.  In 2012, LL has 8 and E8 had 8.  Now, here's the rub:  from what I understood, the Frostburg/Salisbury entry was just a two-year deal.  Thus, in 2013, this would leave the E8 with 6 football members at present -- not enough for a Pool A bid without another exemption.

[EDIT:  Let me correct this, since I just located the info regarding Buffalo State.  They join the E8 in 2012.  Therefore, here are the correct totals:

2011:  LL 7/E8 8 (SPR, FRO, SAL in E8)
2012:  LL 8/E8 8 (SPR in LL -- FRO, SAL, BUF in E8)
2013:  LL 8/E8 6 (SPR in LL -- BUF in E8 -- FRO, SAL TBD)]

+1, Frank.

Thanks for the update and the timeline.

The Capital AC will have 4 members playing football in 2011...

Wesley, Stevenson, Frostburg and Salisbury.

Springfield to LL link

Let me clarify a point.  The E8 has a valuable commidity...the AQ.  

IMHO, as long as they have four core members playing football,
and they can find 3 more affiliates to gain access to the AQ, then they are going to keep the AQ.

The other issue facing the E8 is where to find a 10-game schedule.  Once conference play starts, the even-membered conferences have every weekend scheduled from the 11th weekend backwards.

The Centennial will have games from Week #3 to #11.
The 8-member Liberty League may fill all 7 weeks from week #5 thru #11.

The Empire 8 will have to find games from somewhere.  Whether the initial contract was a 2-year deal for Salisbury and Frostburg, those guys will have to travel somewhere to get games.  The E8 wants the games and the AQ.  That 2-year contract may actually have a 2-year renewing aspect that most teams in the conference understand.  Games and the AQ are driving this, IMHO.

I just wonder if the E8 will take all four CAC teams.  What might disrupt this E8 affiliation with the CAC?  New football programs in the CAC or new members from the South, e.g. CNU and Shenandoah, as the shuffle continues.  But we have not seen that happening, JMO.

I think that the E8 affliliations will continue.  The E8 might pick up a few other SUNYAC schools in the future as travel costs continue to go up.

[SJFF82]

Concur with the Rev's ROI assessment.

So many people now hold either a BA or BS that an undergraduate degree is practically worthless in the marketplace.

So, after $150K of debt you have to matriculate at a graduate school - further increasing your debt.

When all is said and done it is possible to owe more than $200K for your entire education.

The United Methodist Church is finding that some of its most recent ordained clergy are carrying this sort of load while receiving a compensation of $35K per year plus the benefits of housing, medical and pension.

Meanwhile, we have leaky faucets that need fixing and a shortage of plumbers.

It seems that the Nation is enamored with debt and drunk on what, temporarily, appears to be free money.

I fear that the day of economic reckoning is upon us and the results will make the Great Depression look like a field trip.

Recommendation:  get out of debt, keep cash available and a reliable self-defense weapon.

It is improbable to believe that things can merely continue on as they have without the accompanying course corrections.

On a football note:  I thought Manning was let down by Wayne and Garcon who did not put themselves into good position to make plays or dropped balls they should have caught.  Additionally, the story is not about Drew Brees but the lack of pass rush from the Colts.  Some of Lycoming's intramural quarterbacks could have made some of those passes - Brees had way too much time.  Also, N.O. defense played tough all day.

It almost appeared the Colts thought they were entitled to the win - that is never a good attitude at any level.

ATB

A big fat +k...5 spot on, undeniable assessments of this country's economic prognosis.  

I have been wrestling with the idea of how 'we' can continue to 'make' money in this country, without actually making ANYTHING.  In reality, we are slicing and dicing (and taxing) the same dollar bills over and over.  Higher 'Education' has become an industry in and of itself that is heavily subsidized by the govt and unaffordable private student loans.  It is nothing but a means to an end.  I would love for my kids to get a college education someday, and all that goes along with it (like beer pong), but it is becoming purely an economic disaster to get a degree.  Many people get pissed when I claim that our colleges and universities are 'growing' too much and building too many buildings.  They claim I am against growth and progress.  Well, look where 'growth and progress' has gotten many debt laden college grads without a salary remotely commensurate with their debt load.

Plain and simple, our colleges and universities have a 'keep up with the Joneses' mentality that our culture as a whole has developed.  It is up to the fiscally responsible parents of the 'next' generation to put their foot down and stop playing into the broken system.  Small example:  I hear parents of my son's t-ball team bitch and complain about how expensive the batting gloves and bats are....82 comments....well, if you dont buy the stuff, I wont buy it either, and our kids wont know the difference because the other kid aint got the stuff either.  Parent responds....yeh but they need the stuff....82 says....then stop complaining.....uuuugh!!!

[SJFF82]

dlip thought the SB was pretty decent. He enjoyed Garcon's TD catch and watching both QB's play well. The key to dlip was NO's ability to keep Manning off the field. Brees was a ****in superstar.  This win is a good thing for the people of New Orleans.

I heard they 'flooded' the streets after the game last night....

[JT]

Yeah I thought I was the only one who actually enjoyed the game... The commercials and the halftime show sucked, though.  

As a musician TGP hates to say this but was Betty White up there with the Who?

At least some of the HOFers they've had up there in recent years a) could get it done (e.g. Bruce) and b) actually sounded good (e.g. Sir Paul).

Agreed all around.  The commercials were dookie, and The Who are mad old.  Add Elton John to the list of good ones.  He is always entertaining, can still sing, and is moderately relevant still.  All because of the nipple slip that has forever ruined an entire generation of youth.  I wonder if that generation is out burning down buildings and smoking crack this morning because of the vaunted nipple.

I'm not sure which was more offensive, the Janet Jackson nipple slip or Pete Townsend's pasty white belly...

OK, I lied, I am very clear which is more offensive. Maybe this will swing the tide back towards musicians under 80 years old.

How about Daughtry?  Why can't they get him?

He played before the game in the parking lot and was really good.

Musta missed it on the drive over.

[JT]

Concur with the Rev's ROI assessment.

So many people now hold either a BA or BS that an undergraduate degree is practically worthless in the marketplace.

So, after $150K of debt you have to matriculate at a graduate school - further increasing your debt.

When all is said and done it is possible to owe more than $200K for your entire education.

The United Methodist Church is finding that some of its most recent ordained clergy are carrying this sort of load while receiving a compensation of $35K per year plus the benefits of housing, medical and pension.

Meanwhile, we have leaky faucets that need fixing and a shortage of plumbers.

It seems that the Nation is enamored with debt and drunk on what, temporarily, appears to be free money.

I fear that the day of economic reckoning is upon us and the results will make the Great Depression look like a field trip.

Recommendation:  get out of debt, keep cash available and a reliable self-defense weapon.

It is improbable to believe that things can merely continue on as they have without the accompanying course corrections.

On a football note:  I thought Manning was let down by Wayne and Garcon who did not put themselves into good position to make plays or dropped balls they should have caught.  Additionally, the story is not about Drew Brees but the lack of pass rush from the Colts.  Some of Lycoming's intramural quarterbacks could have made some of those passes - Brees had way too much time.  Also, N.O. defense played tough all day.

It almost appeared the Colts thought they were entitled to the win - that is never a good attitude at any level.

ATB

A big fat +k...5 spot on, undeniable assessments of this country's economic prognosis.  

I have been wrestling with the idea of how 'we' can continue to 'make' money in this country, without actually making ANYTHING.  In reality, we are slicing and dicing (and taxing) the same dollar bills over and over.  Higher 'Education' has become an industry in and of itself that is heavily subsidized by the govt and unaffordable private student loans.  It is nothing but a means to an end.  I would love for my kids to get a college education someday, and all that goes along with it (like beer pong), but it is becoming purely an economic disaster to get a degree.  Many people get pissed when I claim that our colleges and universities are 'growing' too much and building too many buildings.  They claim I am against growth and progress.  Well, look where 'growth and progress' has gotten many debt laden college grads without a salary remotely commensurate with their debt load.

Plain and simple, our colleges and universities have a 'keep up with the Joneses' mentality that our culture as a whole has developed.  It is up to the fiscally responsible parents of the 'next' generation to put their foot down and stop playing into the broken system.  Small example:  I hear parents of my son's t-ball team bitch and complain about how expensive the batting gloves and bats are....82 comments....well, if you dont buy the stuff, I wont buy it either, and our kids wont know the difference because the other kid aint got the stuff either.  Parent responds....yeh but they need the stuff....82 says....then stop complaining.....uuuugh!!!

Why are t-ball bats expensive?  Isn't that like buying gold plated diapers?

[Regulator]

Unless you want to work a trade, don't you need a degree?

['gro]

excuse gro for quasi-politickin'... but this discussion on economics can only lead to one thing.... RAP BATTLE! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk