FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

[Knightstalker]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

If someone goes to a trade school or serves an apprenticeship it shows me a few things.  One they probably have a high level of intelligence to get accepted into the trade school and or apprenticeship program.  Two they had the work ethic to complete the training or apprenticeship while working a full time job on top on it, and three when you finish your trade school you will work with people who have college degrees who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole.

[Jonny Utah]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

If someone goes to a trade school or serves an apprenticeship it shows me a few things.  One they probably have a high level of intelligence to get accepted into the trade school and or apprenticeship program.  Two they had the work ethic to complete the training or apprenticeship while working a full time job on top on it, and three when you finish your trade school you will work with people who have college degrees who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole.

Let me say this.  I would have been a horrible plumber or electrician no matter if I had gone to a trade school or not.  Sometimes you need those skills beforehand if you want to be any good at them.

[Doid23]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

I agree. There are really two debates here:
1) College vs. non-college/ trade: To your point, I believe college becomes a differentiator, and separates people from the pack when selecting for certain jobs, just as trade school would. I personally still fundamentally believe in the value of a college education. Which leads us to >

2) The cost of college education: This also includes the cost/value question. I think this is where the system has gone WAY off the tracks, as many  posters have noted. And while I believe in the point I made about the value of colleges being the networking and contacts, I believe that there is a level where that equation goes upside down. At this point, I can't imagine I wouldn't send my children to a less expensive state college rather than a very expensive private college.

[Knightstalker]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

If someone goes to a trade school or serves an apprenticeship it shows me a few things.  One they probably have a high level of intelligence to get accepted into the trade school and or apprenticeship program.  Two they had the work ethic to complete the training or apprenticeship while working a full time job on top on it, and three when you finish your trade school you will work with people who have college degrees who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole.

Let me say this.  I would have been a horrible plumber or electrician no matter if I had gone to a trade school or not.  Sometimes you need those skills beforehand if you want to be any good at them.

And KS would have been a horrible trader, salesperson or investor even with a MBA from Wharton.  KS was a much better machinist and maintenance machinist then he is as an EDI coordinator and Logistics Coordinator.

The point is all these skill sets are needed and it requires an education to learn how to use them and apply them.

[Jonny Utah]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

If someone goes to a trade school or serves an apprenticeship it shows me a few things.  One they probably have a high level of intelligence to get accepted into the trade school and or apprenticeship program.  Two they had the work ethic to complete the training or apprenticeship while working a full time job on top on it, and three when you finish your trade school you will work with people who have college degrees who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole.

Let me say this.  I would have been a horrible plumber or electrician no matter if I had gone to a trade school or not.  Sometimes you need those skills beforehand if you want to be any good at them.

And KS would have been a horrible trader, salesperson or investor even with a MBA from Wharton.  KS was a much better machinist and maintenance machinist then he is as an EDI coordinator and Logistics Coordinator.

The point is all these skill sets are needed and it requires an education to learn how to use them and apply them.

Another point is that some people don't want to or can't work jobs that require physical labor.  And we also have to realize that an hours work for tradesmen is an hours work.  And then theres the whole union/health insurance/pension aspect too.

[pg04]

In my own experience, I have never been good at anything mechanical or any trade, but I definitely have respect for those that can do those jobs, and it takes intelligence and dedication to do those jobs.  

Currently, I am in the process of getting even more education (getting my Doctorate despite the fact that I have a good well-paying job -- it's more for the happiness factor of attaining my ultimate career goal), but again I can see both sides of this.  

[Regulator]

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

Come on Doid!  Are you joking me?  Yeah....the names and reputation are all smoke and mirrors

[JT]

JT just thinks the higher education model is way overpriced.  He would never trade his undergrad experience for anything.  Great times.

[Regulator]

And we also have to realize that an hours work for tradesmen is an hours work.

I agree with this.  My buddy slings 600 pound sub z's around on his back to make a very good living.  I don't see that as a sustainable career path.....same with metal worker, PDW, construction, etc.  I am not against the trade profession, however, putting in manual labor doesn't sound that cool to me personally.

I would prefer the view from 30,000 feet.

[Knightstalker]

I agree with many of the comments and criticisms of liberal arts degrees (especially the rise in college costs vs. the rise in wages, as well as the cause of much of this, debt), but in the end, what I've discovered is that much of the world runs on networking and contacts, and schools add value by that network.

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

But in the end, this cycle cannot continue, and eventually sanity will come, kicking and screaming, to the education sector.

I think we all have a story of that one person we know who went to this school and did this, or the person who didn't go to school but did that.  In general we can all agree that going to college is probably better for you and leaves you with more options once you graduate.

We can also all say the old "If I did this when I was 22 instead of that" routine.  I'm sure every single person in here can think of things they would have done differently.

But if you went to "college" it kind of tells me a few things.  One, you probably have a high level of intelligence (depending on the school of course).  Two, you had the work ethic to graduate, and three, you may have some sort of skill or knowledge of the world that other people who were electricains or plumbers for 4 years might not have.

If someone goes to a trade school or serves an apprenticeship it shows me a few things.  One they probably have a high level of intelligence to get accepted into the trade school and or apprenticeship program.  Two they had the work ethic to complete the training or apprenticeship while working a full time job on top on it, and three when you finish your trade school you will work with people who have college degrees who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole.

Let me say this.  I would have been a horrible plumber or electrician no matter if I had gone to a trade school or not.  Sometimes you need those skills beforehand if you want to be any good at them.

And KS would have been a horrible trader, salesperson or investor even with a MBA from Wharton.  KS was a much better machinist and maintenance machinist then he is as an EDI coordinator and Logistics Coordinator.

The point is all these skill sets are needed and it requires an education to learn how to use them and apply them.

Another point is that some people don't want to or can't work jobs that require physical labor.  And we also have to realize that an hours work for tradesmen is an hours work.  And then theres the whole union/health insurance/pension aspect too.

That is KS issue, KS can't work manual labor anymore.  KS was told years ago not to lift anything over 60 lbs, that got lowered to 40 lbs a few years ago.  KS was no longer able to muscle around big hunks of metal, but wishes he still could.  KS always felt better about finishing a mold or repairing a machine then he does about finishing up mapping EDI transactions for a new customer.

All this said the job KS enjoyed the most was the summer after he got out of the Navy and KS was working for a landscaper digging trenches with a back-hoe and cutting grass on a 72 in Toro rear steer mower.  Didn't pay much but was a great way to spend a summer.

[SJFF82]

Some other factors to consider:

time spent getting the degree while losing 4-8 years of income, plus the interest on the income

the collateral debt that many of us take on in college and grad school such as high interest credit card debt

time lost having not been vested in a retirement account

brain cells lost funneling PBR at low level college football games

Right, you can throw all of your life experience away, just so you can make 30K a year for 4 years mowing lawns and working 60 hour weeks.  I don't usually reminisce and tell stories about a good day at work that I had 3 years ago, but I have plenty from the time I wasted with a low level football program.  Would you rather retire 4-8 years earlier and THEN try to have fun when your balls touch the ground?

this was an economic discussion, though thanks for the humor you shed on such a boring topic.   Trust me I wouldnt trade the college parties either, but dollar for dollar I am way behind as a result of undergrad and law school loans.

[Jonny Utah]

And then theres the whole union/health insurance/pension aspect too.

I agree with this.  My buddy slings 600 pound sub z's around on his back to make a very good living.  I don't see that as a sustainable career path.....same with metal worker, PDW, construction, etc.  I am not against the trade profession, however, putting in manual labor doesn't sound that cool to me personally.

I would prefer the view from 30,000 feet.

A lot of these union construction guys are out of work now too.  On the other hand, I met a guy once who was a union steward for this buidling project.  His brother was one of the crane operators for the top of the building.  He told me he made 80+ dollars an hour (minus the union dues, and health insurance/pension I imagine).  Im not sure how long it took him to get that job or how much training he needed, but if thats what you want to do the money is there I guess.


_{JU would not be caught dead up on one of these things}

[Knightstalker]

And then theres the whole union/health insurance/pension aspect too.

I agree with this.  My buddy slings 600 pound sub z's around on his back to make a very good living.  I don't see that as a sustainable career path.....same with metal worker, PDW, construction, etc.  I am not against the trade profession, however, putting in manual labor doesn't sound that cool to me personally.

I would prefer the view from 30,000 feet.

A lot of these union construction guys are out of work now too.  On the other hand, I met a guy once who was a union steward for this buidling project.  His brother was one of the crane operators for the top of the building.  He told me he made 80+ dollars an hour (minus the union dues, and health insurance/pension I imagine).  Im not sure how long it took him to get that job or how much training he needed, but if thats what you want to do the money is there I guess.


_{JU would not be caught dead up on one of these things}

Putting in the time and gaining the experience and if it is a union shop having the seniority.

[JT]

Some other factors to consider:

time spent getting the degree while losing 4-8 years of income, plus the interest on the income

the collateral debt that many of us take on in college and grad school such as high interest credit card debt

time lost having not been vested in a retirement account

brain cells lost funneling PBR at low level college football games

Right, you can throw all of your life experience away, just so you can make 30K a year for 4 years mowing lawns and working 60 hour weeks.  I don't usually reminisce and tell stories about a good day at work that I had 3 years ago, but I have plenty from the time I wasted with a low level football program.  Would you rather retire 4-8 years earlier and THEN try to have fun when your balls touch the ground?

The As on TV companies have invented face and neck exercisers to keep the skin taught on the older folks.  JT is banking on the ball sack exerciser before JT has to worry about saggy balls.  JT really misses Billy Mays.  He'd have been perfect for the product in 15-20 years.