FB: Liberty League

[JT]

You have to think about the education in terms of net present value.  Sure it is going to cost you money to go to school and law school, however, over the long haul, what premium can a college educated worker make over a non-educated one?
I have this fancy spreadsheet that I placed together a 1.1m gap over a 40 year career.

Use 40 years as time.  I am guessing you have positive cash flows within 5 years and have reached a break even point of your education within 8.  I bet you surpass the net income of your non-educated job in 10 years (since you would have started 4 years earlier)

impressive reg, are you sure shelly in accounting didn't "help" you with that one? Or did you just watch this commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYS5NtRXlZQ

+K Gro.  Ive never seen that one.  This is the one I always see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Kv-KYpD10

College in your PJs!

That commercial plays CONSTANTLY...  beware of catchy jingles especially that free credit report one. That's a scam run by the credit agencies to sign you up for "credit protection". You're entitled by law to get a free report annually, no need to sign up for extra stuff.

Right on Gro.  And its like a maze trying to get a free one without jumping through flaming hoops and not giving your credit card so you can "sign up for a month and if you don't cancel we will sign you up for ten years".

These "credit debt reduction" companies are shams too.  

All credit card companies will deal, especially today.  Make you own deals and save money.  Just mention financial difficulties and ask what programs they have if you think you can still pay in full, like if they'll cut the interest rate to 6.0% - 8.0%.  Or if you owe a lot, and want to pay less that you owe, its called a settlement.  Ask for a settlement. Sometimes you may get 25-30 cents on the dollar (on a 3-6 month payoff).  Usually it is about 35-40 cents on the dollar.

Figure out the max you can pay each month on the debt, and work out the best deal.  Don't be afraid to play one offer off the other.  This is business, not personal.  And they don't care about you.

That is what KS older brother did.  EX Wife used Bros credit cards to pay property taxes and then used credit cards to pay off credit cards.  KS brother did not want to claim bankruptcy and he made deals with all the cc companies, they worked with him to get him out of debt, out of bankruptcy and maintained decent credit and has built it back to pretty good credit.

I think it was a lot easier 10 years ago however.  At that time I was deep in credit card debt spread around 4 or 5 cards.  I basically called all of them and could get 0% balance transfers for no fee up to 12 months.  I did this for about 3 years and didn't pay any interest of finance fees. My wife and I tried to do the same thing recently but couldn't get anywhere.  I asked one card (that was at 25%) that I was going to transfer the fees and cancel the account and she and her boss manager didn't care.  They said there was nothing they could do.  This happened with another credid card company as well.  Much different experience than I had 10 years ago.  If we were in big trouble, we would probably be better off getting another card.

Wouldn't a settlement hurt your credit rating though?  I guess at some point getting out of the debt would be worth it though.

Tell them there are others willing to deal and this particular company will get zero.  Settlements are OK.   You can get it removed later... either on your own or their are law firms that specialize.  It may take a year or so, but anyone that says are you stuck with bad ish for 7-10 years, doesn't have any idea what they are talking about.  For about $50 month you can scrub a credit report clean in a year or so. 

And never pay a collection company, they already paid 20 cents on the dollar. Only go direct to the original debt holder.

[Jonny Utah]

You have to think about the education in terms of net present value.  Sure it is going to cost you money to go to school and law school, however, over the long haul, what premium can a college educated worker make over a non-educated one?
I have this fancy spreadsheet that I placed together a 1.1m gap over a 40 year career.

Use 40 years as time.  I am guessing you have positive cash flows within 5 years and have reached a break even point of your education within 8.  I bet you surpass the net income of your non-educated job in 10 years (since you would have started 4 years earlier)

impressive reg, are you sure shelly in accounting didn't "help" you with that one? Or did you just watch this commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYS5NtRXlZQ

+K Gro.  Ive never seen that one.  This is the one I always see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Kv-KYpD10

College in your PJs!

That commercial plays CONSTANTLY...  beware of catchy jingles especially that free credit report one. That's a scam run by the credit agencies to sign you up for "credit protection". You're entitled by law to get a free report annually, no need to sign up for extra stuff.

Right on Gro.  And its like a maze trying to get a free one without jumping through flaming hoops and not giving your credit card so you can "sign up for a month and if you don't cancel we will sign you up for ten years".

These "credit debt reduction" companies are shams too.  

All credit card companies will deal, especially today.  Make you own deals and save money.  Just mention financial difficulties and ask what programs they have if you think you can still pay in full, like if they'll cut the interest rate to 6.0% - 8.0%.  Or if you owe a lot, and want to pay less that you owe, its called a settlement.  Ask for a settlement. Sometimes you may get 25-30 cents on the dollar (on a 3-6 month payoff).  Usually it is about 35-40 cents on the dollar.

Figure out the max you can pay each month on the debt, and work out the best deal.  Don't be afraid to play one offer off the other.  This is business, not personal.  And they don't care about you.

That is what KS older brother did.  EX Wife used Bros credit cards to pay property taxes and then used credit cards to pay off credit cards.  KS brother did not want to claim bankruptcy and he made deals with all the cc companies, they worked with him to get him out of debt, out of bankruptcy and maintained decent credit and has built it back to pretty good credit.

I think it was a lot easier 10 years ago however.  At that time I was deep in credit card debt spread around 4 or 5 cards.  I basically called all of them and could get 0% balance transfers for no fee up to 12 months.  I did this for about 3 years and didn't pay any interest of finance fees. My wife and I tried to do the same thing recently but couldn't get anywhere.  I asked one card (that was at 25%) that I was going to transfer the fees and cancel the account and she and her boss manager didn't care.  They said there was nothing they could do.  This happened with another credid card company as well.  Much different experience than I had 10 years ago.  If we were in big trouble, we would probably be better off getting another card.

Wouldn't a settlement hurt your credit rating though?  I guess at some point getting out of the debt would be worth it though.

Tell them there are others willing to deal and this particular company will get zero.  Settlements are OK.   You can get it removed later... either on your own or their are law firms that specialize.  It may take a year or so, but anyone that says are you stuck with bad ish for 7-10 years, doesn't have any idea what they are talking about.  For about $50 month you can scrub a credit report clean in a year or so. 

And never pay a collection company, they already paid 20 cents on the dollar. Only go direct to the original debt holder.

Yea it wasn't that much where we needed to do anything like a settlement.  MJU had a little bit of a spending problem last year is all!

[JT]

You have to think about the education in terms of net present value.  Sure it is going to cost you money to go to school and law school, however, over the long haul, what premium can a college educated worker make over a non-educated one?
I have this fancy spreadsheet that I placed together a 1.1m gap over a 40 year career.

Use 40 years as time.  I am guessing you have positive cash flows within 5 years and have reached a break even point of your education within 8.  I bet you surpass the net income of your non-educated job in 10 years (since you would have started 4 years earlier)

impressive reg, are you sure shelly in accounting didn't "help" you with that one? Or did you just watch this commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYS5NtRXlZQ

+K Gro.  Ive never seen that one.  This is the one I always see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Kv-KYpD10

College in your PJs!

That commercial plays CONSTANTLY...  beware of catchy jingles especially that free credit report one. That's a scam run by the credit agencies to sign you up for "credit protection". You're entitled by law to get a free report annually, no need to sign up for extra stuff.

Right on Gro.  And its like a maze trying to get a free one without jumping through flaming hoops and not giving your credit card so you can "sign up for a month and if you don't cancel we will sign you up for ten years".

These "credit debt reduction" companies are shams too.  

All credit card companies will deal, especially today.  Make you own deals and save money.  Just mention financial difficulties and ask what programs they have if you think you can still pay in full, like if they'll cut the interest rate to 6.0% - 8.0%.  Or if you owe a lot, and want to pay less that you owe, its called a settlement.  Ask for a settlement. Sometimes you may get 25-30 cents on the dollar (on a 3-6 month payoff).  Usually it is about 35-40 cents on the dollar.

Figure out the max you can pay each month on the debt, and work out the best deal.  Don't be afraid to play one offer off the other.  This is business, not personal.  And they don't care about you.

That is what KS older brother did.  EX Wife used Bros credit cards to pay property taxes and then used credit cards to pay off credit cards.  KS brother did not want to claim bankruptcy and he made deals with all the cc companies, they worked with him to get him out of debt, out of bankruptcy and maintained decent credit and has built it back to pretty good credit.

I think it was a lot easier 10 years ago however.  At that time I was deep in credit card debt spread around 4 or 5 cards.  I basically called all of them and could get 0% balance transfers for no fee up to 12 months.  I did this for about 3 years and didn't pay any interest of finance fees. My wife and I tried to do the same thing recently but couldn't get anywhere.  I asked one card (that was at 25%) that I was going to transfer the fees and cancel the account and she and her boss manager didn't care.  They said there was nothing they could do.  This happened with another credid card company as well.  Much different experience than I had 10 years ago.  If we were in big trouble, we would probably be better off getting another card.

Wouldn't a settlement hurt your credit rating though?  I guess at some point getting out of the debt would be worth it though.

Tell them there are others willing to deal and this particular company will get zero.  Settlements are OK.   You can get it removed later... either on your own or their are law firms that specialize.  It may take a year or so, but anyone that says are you stuck with bad ish for 7-10 years, doesn't have any idea what they are talking about.  For about $50 month you can scrub a credit report clean in a year or so. 

And never pay a collection company, they already paid 20 cents on the dollar. Only go direct to the original debt holder.

Yea it wasn't that much where we needed to do anything like a settlement.  MJU had a little bit of a spending problem last year is all!

JT was over extended business wise during the recession of 2001.  He found out that the "credit relief" companies were negotiating great deals and adding 20%.  So he figured he could deal straight. And then it was better to pay a lawyer to scrub.

[Mr. Ypsi]

By the way,  The Rev cannot say that no one should go to school, or everyone should go to school, or any blanket statement.  The only blanket statement The Rev is willing to make is that the kid and family need to make the decisions based on what they think is good for them.  There is risk involved in every thing we do.  If families are willing to take the risk on paying for the BA/BA based on expectation of higher future earnings, they should by all means do it.

While that should be a consideration, I hope college decisions are not SOLELY monetary.  I've paid for my older son (he won't owe a dime) because I thought he would benefit in MANY ways from a college education.  With my younger son (now a hs senior) it is more an open question.  He has the brains, but also has the discipline of an Animal House wannabe.  I'll still pay, but this case is not so clear-cut.

EDIT: I should note that neither wanted to go to a private liberal arts college.  Older son went to Eastern Michigan for two years; is finishing at U of Michigan.  Younger son wants to start at the local CC.

While dad would have gone whichever way, his bank account is grateful!

[Doid23]

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

Come on Doid!  Are you joking me?  Yeah....the names and reputation are all smoke and mirrors

That's wasn't my point, it certainly wasn't to say that Harvard and Yale are living on reputation alone, far from it.  I think college education at certain levels are what you make of them. So, going to Yale doesn't necessarily produce a better product than going to Trinity. Is Yale better than Onandaga Community College? Yup. Better than Marist? Probably. They absolutely get an overall better level of candidates and students, because their standards are higher, which is a result of their students performance over time. And most of the college ratings come from their high admission standards, and low acceptance rates, as well as their research and other related matters such as endowments (easier to let in great students who don't have the financial means). But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the absolute best educators. Just look at the recent change of opinions about Harvard Business School the past few years, the questions as to whether they are producing leaders with ethics, or people who will make money at any cost, damn the consequences.  So, no, not trying in any way to say their names and reputations are all smoke and mirrors, but just that it isn't as linear as people assume, and once it has momentum, it starts to be a more nuanced question: Is a Yale or Harvard education better than a Trinity one, or do they just get better applicants, and therefore their students have more successful careers as a whole, and therefore they get the best applicants, etc. etc. etc.

[JT]

I don't think a Yale or Harvard education is substantially (or at all) better than the education at many of the LL schools, but the reputation and contacts certainly are.

Come on Doid!  Are you joking me?  Yeah....the names and reputation are all smoke and mirrors

That's wasn't my point, it certainly wasn't to say that Harvard and Yale are living on reputation alone, far from it.  I think college education at certain levels are what you make of them. So, going to Yale doesn't necessarily produce a better product than going to Trinity. Is Yale better than Onandaga Community College? Yup. Better than Marist? Probably. They absolutely get an overall better level of candidates and students, because their standards are higher, which is a result of their students performance over time. And most of the college ratings come from their high admission standards, and low acceptance rates, as well as their research and other related matters such as endowments (easier to let in great students who don't have the financial means). But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the absolute best educators. Just look at the recent change of opinions about Harvard Business School the past few years, the questions as to whether they are producing leaders with ethics, or people who will make money at any cost, damn the consequences.  So, no, not trying in any way to say their names and reputations are all smoke and mirrors, but just that it isn't as linear as people assume, and once it has momentum, it starts to be a more nuanced question: Is a Yale or Harvard education better than a Trinity one, or do they just get better applicants, and therefore their students have more successful careers as a whole, and therefore they get the best applicants, etc. etc. etc.

It is about the connections (successful alumni), but that only goes so far. Unless you go into to politics, talent rises whether one goes into community, state, ivy college or not.

[Doid23]

[

It is about the connections (successful alumni), but that only goes so far. Unless you go into to politics, talent rises whether one goes into community, state, ivy college or not.

Although, if you have connections, you're talent is more likely to get recognized and rewarded then just doing it on merit alone. But without talent, you're pretty much cooked.

As to politics, unfortunately I agree. I always thought the movie "Idiocracy" was a ridiculous farce, yet with the people in politics now, I actually think it may be a view into the future. My boss has contact with many politicians, and says that we would fire them within their first 3 months if they worked for us, and yet they're running our cities/ states/ country. And it's only going to get worse.

[G-manWU]

The simultaneous economic realities of higher costs for education and collegiate football are going to force many programs to re-evaluate not only their conference affiliation but also the future of fielding a football team.

I predict some schools will opt out of collegiate football with an eye towards continuing less costly sports.

D-III teams are seldom money makers for the school but the argument may be made they bring in alumni donations and student-athlete enrollment.

Practically speaking, private, liberal arts college education, seems poised to follow the Detroit automakers into oblivion.  Each year car costs continued to rise as attention to detail suffered and overseas competitors found a way to build a better product.  The challenge facing higher education - how can they continue to balance the budget with soaring fuel costs, inflationary wage factors for well-qualified faculty and a decrease in the endowment due to stock market reverses.

Sounds like a very challenging time to be in the leadership of any higher education institution.

Lyco--

The Rev agrees with your assessment that these will be tough times for liberal arts colleges.  In fact, The Rev will turn it up a notch and say that some liberal arts colleges will have to close their doors.  They are over-priced and under-performing.  Worst of all, schools don't want to let go of subsidized programs (e.g. Trans-Gendered Studies, Wymyn's Studies, etc., etc.).  Granted those programs don't cost a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but if you add them all together and take an honest assessment of how much they bring in, they all need to be cut.

I never understood Hobart in the sense that we seem to have a large number of people in education programs.  Who in their right mind spends $50,000 a year to become a public school teacher?  Why not go to SUNY Cortland or SUNY Oneonta?  They are perfectly good schools and you can save yourself $150,000 over the course of four years.

That brings up the point of Return on Investment:  No liberal arts college will survive unless the promise of a great ROI materializes and becomes reality.  As in, when The Rev finally has kids, they are going to learn how to machine metal, weld, and other useful skills rather than go to college.  If they decide they want to go to school, they can choose an engineering program and live at home, but The Rev is not going to waste a dime on some Marxist P.O.S. teaching my kids to hate me, Free Enterprise, America, and the Church.

Oh! The Rev is fired up now!!!!

Lyco80, I think the move by Susquehanna is based purely on pride and ego. They were so eager to jump the MAC ship a few years back that they were more than happy to spend a few years up north rather than waste away with your alma mater, my alma mater, and the rest of the underperforming MAC leftovers  A great shame, as we always enjoyed great games with the Crusaders- they always had poor records in my time in blue and gold, but they played as hard as anyone we faced on the schedule. Everyone on our coaching staff got along well, the schools were close so that many parents could make the trip, and that beautiful campus had lots of pretty girls....I remember having a wonderful pregame chat before our 2005 game out there with this delightful Italian exchange student...Coach Shep and the bunch would have gotten a good laugh at that one

As you and I both know, often times the decisions that involve athletic conference affiliations are made at a "higher level" than the athletic department offices. In that case, the Crusaders can take it and have fun...if their new home gives them a warm, fuzzy feeling inside, good for them. The only disappointment I have is that it may impact the Stagg Hat game- do you have any info on this?

Rev,

I think you may be jumping to an early judgement on private, liberal arts schools. Having graduated from one, and being currently enrolled in grad school at another (non-football) such school, I can say that the last few years have not been the best, but the panic buttons at both my current school and my alma mater are far from sounding the "abandon ship" signal. In fact both schjools have recently added new academic programs that are among the first in the region. At the end of the day, kids can always go to Ship, Bloom, ESU or elsewhere if they want to be a teacher as you said, but there are other programs unique to the private schools that will always attract students.

In my case, I see myself as no different than many other students at the schools in question. I could have gotten a similar degree from any number of state schools and saved a bundle, but I would not trade my four years on the banks of the Susquehanna for ANY other school, public, private, or otherwise 

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, but I can't quote from a Blackberry.

In response to my former MAC brethren, Susquehanna wasn't looking to move. We like the Liberty League. Great people, great institutions. It's been a fantastic experience. The Centennial (ironically) came back and invited us to join. In these days of high gas prices and other institutional cost-cutting moves, sadly, it makes sense. The longest trip we'll have is about 2.5 hours. Most of the CC schools are just 1.5 hours from Selinsgrove - Gettysburg's a straight shot down 15, Dickinson just a hop over to 81, for example. Can you blame us, really?

As for the Stagg Hat Trophy game, unfortunately that's on at least a one-year hiatus. Not sure when we get Lyco back on the schedule. I'll miss that game, but I want the hat back!

And as for the bolded part, G-man, just wanted to say thanks. 

TheGrove, I think we have more in common than we do different. My point is that if the Crusaders see geography as a plus in the CC, why ever leave the MAC in the first place? Was the overall picture of academia in our leage really that bad that SU needed to escape the good ship Middle Atlantic? I can only speak for one MAC school on personal experience, but I would put my education against the outstanding communications program at SU, or any other LL or CC school, on any day of the week.

No disrespect to Juniata, as the distance made for few connections with our players and fans. Moravian was tougher, as we had a good rivalry with the Greyhounds and our Lehigh Valley guys (not to mention Coach Shep) always were  up for that one. But when Susquehanna walked out the door.....that was a disappointing day in Coloneland my friend. No that the league needed any of the three defectors to survivie, but it was always nothing but good times with SU. It dosen;t hurt that we won most of the latter games in the series  but it went well beyond that, to the friendships betwene so many players, coaches, administrators, and fans at both schools.

As for our visits to SU, indeed you are welcome for the compliment  That was a great time- someday Coach Shep and I need to have a brew and talk about it! We also played out there my junior year in men's basketball and had a great game, withstanding a Josh Robinson rampage to hang on for the W. But my favorite memory comes from my  freshman season of Wilkes Football, in 2004, when the first half was played in a driving rainstorm. Because of that wonderful roof over the press box, I was dry as a bone while everyone else was soaked. Someday, I am going to track down whoever decided to put that roof on there and buy him/her a drink- they deserve it!

[mattvsmith]

the kid and family need to make the decisions based on what they think is good for them.  There is risk involved in every thing we do.  If families are willing to take the risk on paying for the BA/BA based on expectation of higher future earnings, they should by all means do it.

Addendum to Rev's own comment:

If Rev had a kid who was a good math/science student and wanted to go to RPI for engineering, The Rev would find a way to pay for it.  Rev would hit up dad, dead grandpa, sisters, friends, crackwhoreseverybody to help pay for it.

On the other hand, if Rev's kid decided to go to Hobart to double major in English and Religious Studies (The Rev's majors) The Rev would grab kid's beercan bong, fill it with concrete, and smash said kid's head with the concrete bong until kid makes a better choice like Hobart's killer pre-med program.  Once kid makes the wise decision, Rev will get on board and support kid in every way possible, especially if he wants to play on the football team, or at least be a student athletic trainer (as the Rev was).

[PBR...]

this will be pbr's new mode of transportation after this whopper of a storm hits...actually surprised henry ford didnt sell a lot of these things they are pretty cool...could imagine today what this would look like all tricked out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBjlSJf4274

[mattvsmith]

this will be pbr's new mode of transportation after this whopper of a storm hits...actually surprised henry ford didnt sell a lot of these things they are pretty cool...could imagine today what this would look like all tricked out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBjlSJf4274

Outstanding!  +K

[PBR...]

this will be pbr's new mode of transportation after this whopper of a storm hits...actually surprised henry ford didnt sell a lot of these things they are pretty cool...could imagine today what this would look like all tricked out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBjlSJf4274

Outstanding!  +K

the guy had an amazing mind w/ todays technology pbr would like to see what else he would come up with....

[SJFF82]

You have to think about the education in terms of net present value.  Sure it is going to cost you money to go to school and law school, however, over the long haul, what premium can a college educated worker make over a non-educated one?
I have this fancy spreadsheet that I placed together a 1.1m gap over a 40 year career.

Use 40 years as time.  I am guessing you have positive cash flows within 5 years and have reached a break even point of your education within 8.  I bet you surpass the net income of your non-educated job in 10 years (since you would have started 4 years earlier)

impressive reg, are you sure shelly in accounting didn't "help" you with that one? Or did you just watch this commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYS5NtRXlZQ

+K Gro.  Ive never seen that one.  This is the one I always see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Kv-KYpD10

College in your PJs!

That commercial plays CONSTANTLY...  beware of catchy jingles especially that free credit report one. That's a scam run by the credit agencies to sign you up for "credit protection". You're entitled by law to get a free report annually, no need to sign up for extra stuff.

Right on Gro.  And its like a maze trying to get a free one without jumping through flaming hoops and not giving your credit card so you can "sign up for a month and if you don't cancel we will sign you up for ten years".

These "credit debt reduction" companies are shams too. 

I have a bankruptcy practice (in part) and it is a fact that the "credit reduction" companies are owned largely by the credit card companies themselves.  It is nothing but a scheme to collect their 'bad' debt by avoiding the very stringent collection practice laws.  Also, the credit card companies of course have a strong financial interest in the consumer not filing for BK, so they rope them into repaying at least some of the debt through these comapnies.

Has everyone noticed the substantial increase in radio ads for these companies since the stimulus bill was passed.  These comapnies, no doubt, reaped millions of dollars from the Fed as part of the Stim. in the name of 'helping' consumers out of debt (probably cause by the Bush ).

I spoke to a guy yesterday that has been paying 1000.00 per month for 2 years into one pf these plans.  He just found out that one of his creditors had sued him and obtained a judgment.  He claims he thought that creditor was part of the plan but apparently not.  He owes the creditor $28k.  He wants to keep paying 1000 per month even though BK is inevitable because of the judgment.  82, Esq told him to take the $1000.00 bill every month and light it on fire and that was what he was doing with his cash flow right now.  82 did tell him to save one of them for when he's ready to file BK and bring it to me....

[SJFF82]

the kid and family need to make the decisions based on what they think is good for them.  There is risk involved in every thing we do.  If families are willing to take the risk on paying for the BA/BA based on expectation of higher future earnings, they should by all means do it.

Addendum to Rev's own comment:

If Rev had a kid who was a good math/science student and wanted to go to RPI for engineering, The Rev would find a way to pay for it.  Rev would hit up dad, dead grandpa, sisters, friends, crackwhoreseverybody to help pay for it.

On the other hand, if Rev's kid decided to go to Hobart to double major in English and Religious Studies (The Rev's majors) The Rev would grab kid's beercan bong, fill it with concrete, and smash said kid's head with the concrete bong until kid makes a better choice like Hobart's killer pre-med program.  Once kid makes the wise decision, Rev will get on board and support kid in every way possible, especially if he wants to play on the football team, or at least be a student athletic trainer (as the Rev was).

Rev...my kids make the same choices and I will let you work him and her (x3) over consistent with your post!!!

[TheGrove]

TheGrove, I think we have more in common than we do different. My point is that if the Crusaders see geography as a plus in the CC, why ever leave the MAC in the first place? Was the overall picture of academia in our leage really that bad that SU needed to escape the good ship Middle Atlantic? I can only speak for one MAC school on personal experience, but I would put my education against the outstanding communications program at SU, or any other LL or CC school, on any day of the week.

No disrespect to Juniata, as the distance made for few connections with our players and fans. Moravian was tougher, as we had a good rivalry with the Greyhounds and our Lehigh Valley guys (not to mention Coach Shep) always were  up for that one. But when Susquehanna walked out the door.....that was a disappointing day in Coloneland my friend. No that the league needed any of the three defectors to survivie, but it was always nothing but good times with SU. It dosen;t hurt that we won most of the latter games in the series  but it went well beyond that, to the friendships betwene so many players, coaches, administrators, and fans at both schools.

As for our visits to SU, indeed you are welcome for the compliment  That was a great time- someday Coach Shep and I need to have a brew and talk about it! We also played out there my junior year in men's basketball and had a great game, withstanding a Josh Robinson rampage to hang on for the W. But my favorite memory comes from my  freshman season of Wilkes Football, in 2004, when the first half was played in a driving rainstorm. Because of that wonderful roof over the press box, I was dry as a bone while everyone else was soaked. Someday, I am going to track down whoever decided to put that roof on there and buy him/her a drink- they deserve it!

The MAC-to-LL jump was not about geography - it was about "academics." Not so much to say our academics are better than yours, but TPTB felt that there were different focuses on that front all around the conference. Hence that whole "like-minded institution" catchword (which, BTW, I'm sick to death of hearing - it keeps getting thrown back at us on the Landmark board from other bitter MAC-ers).

However, as a Susquehanna communications alumna, I'll take your challenge. 

There are definitely some MAC schools I miss. I'm definitely a traditionalist. I have a few lively memories in your gym, G-man. BTW, I didn't realize you were such a young'un. I would not have been one of the lovely ladies of which you speak, though my sister may have been.