FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

Apparently, Hobart really is located in a growing whine area...

[pumkinattack]

How about showing videos from a game in 2004?  Or crying about a playoff system incessantly for two plus years?  And by the way, just because a committee changes their process within the boundaries of the rules, which fundamentally allow for quite a bit of subjectivity ultimately, doesn't mean they can't apply that same flexibility to make a different determination of playoff teams are selected/seeded.  I understand in the legal world people live and die be precedents, but precedents have to be set, which seems to be lost by you. 

Did you actually read what I wrote, which admittedly is filled with bitterness (and Tartan is correct that Hobart really screwed something last weekend, I'd say more like screwing a woodchipper)?  What I laid out doesn't make the case that this year is anything like last year.  How about an actual personnel analysis?  You pretend to analyze, but just search for self selecting facts to defend whatever your case may be.  Aside from Hobart completely f'ng up last weekend, what makes one think that Rochester is primed to win on Sat?  Seriously because that's the s**t I'm going to watch (assuming UofR does some kind of webcast), not all of UofR because they're playing decent of late. 

Either way, the season's changed for my perspective unless they can win next weekend and win at least one playoff game.  The season will be a failure as far as I'm concerned otherwise. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

pumkinattack, nowhere did I say that my analysis was "compelling" (and if you read my post, I said that Hobart should win the game).  I merely pointed out that, by losing last week, Hobart has left themselves in a precarious position of NEEDING a win on Saturday against an opponent that is CAPABLE of beating them (even if it's not likely).

I mean, if you want to nitpick my use of the phrase "decent ball" to describe Rochester, fine...I kinda thought that "decent" meant somewhere north of "awful" and south of "good" if you get my drift.  If 'Bart was playing Merchant Marine this week, I probably wouldn't even give the game a second thought, but Rochy has a pulse and is good enough to beat the crappy 'Bart team that showed up for the second half last week. 

As for an in-depth personnel analysis, no, I cannot offer much there, except for the rather-obvious "Rochester will be more dangerous if Clarence Onyiruka is healthy and can play."

(funny story about that, when I first saw his name pop up in a Rochy boxscore this year, I thought "That guy is STILL in college?"...I played against him in the season-opener back in 2007, my senior year at CMU, his freshman year at UofR...I didn't realize that he'd been injured and took a medical redshirt)

[Upstate]

(funny story about that, when I first saw his name pop up in a Rochy boxscore this year, I thought "That guy is STILL in college?"...I played against him in the season-opener back in 2007, my senior year at CMU, his freshman year at UofR...I didn't realize that he'd been injured and took a medical redshirt)

He's the only UR/SJF player to play in 5 consecutive Courage Bowls...

[Jonny Utah]

I think it would be cool if Union won the conference and then played the NJAC or MAC champ in the playoffs.  I can see them pulling an upset if that happens.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Aside from Hobart completely f'ng up last weekend, what makes one think that Rochester is primed to win on Sat? 

Look, dude, this was my original quote:

"On paper, Bart should win this game, but Rochy did beat 'Bart last year and has played decent ball of late.  It's not that farfetched to imagine Rochy winning this game..."

What's so unreasonable about that statement?  Nowhere do I say anything about Rochester being likely to win, or even being better than Hobart in ANY phase of the game.  I merely pointed out that Hobart is playing an opponent that is capable of defeating them.

Playing at home, with a chance to wrap up a playoff berth against an inferior opponent, Hobart took a 21-point lead and still lost the game.  Now Hobart must go on the road and beat an opponent of relatively equal caliber (RPI needed a fourth-quarter rally to beat Rochester at home).  If they could lose to RPI at home last week, why is it so far-fetched that they could lose to Rochester on the road?

[lewdogg11]

Aside from Hobart completely f'ng up last weekend, what makes one think that Rochester is primed to win on Sat? 

Look, dude, this was my original quote:

"On paper, Bart should win this game, but Rochy did beat 'Bart last year and has played decent ball of late.  It's not that farfetched to imagine Rochy winning this game..."

What's so unreasonable about that statement?  Nowhere do I say anything about Rochester being likely to win, or even being better than Hobart in ANY phase of the game.  I merely pointed out that Hobart is playing an opponent that is capable of defeating them.

Playing at home, with a chance to wrap up a playoff berth against an inferior opponent, Hobart took a 21-point lead and still lost the game.  Now Hobart must go on the road and beat an opponent of relatively equal caliber (RPI needed a fourth-quarter rally to beat Rochester at home).  If they could lose to RPI at home last week, why is it so far-fetched that they could lose to Rochester on the road?

I don't think it was intended for you.

[Frank Rossi]

Aside from Hobart completely f'ng up last weekend, what makes one think that Rochester is primed to win on Sat? 

Look, dude, this was my original quote:

"On paper, Bart should win this game, but Rochy did beat 'Bart last year and has played decent ball of late.  It's not that farfetched to imagine Rochy winning this game..."

What's so unreasonable about that statement?  Nowhere do I say anything about Rochester being likely to win, or even being better than Hobart in ANY phase of the game.  I merely pointed out that Hobart is playing an opponent that is capable of defeating them.

Playing at home, with a chance to wrap up a playoff berth against an inferior opponent, Hobart took a 21-point lead and still lost the game.  Now Hobart must go on the road and beat an opponent of relatively equal caliber (RPI needed a fourth-quarter rally to beat Rochester at home).  If they could lose to RPI at home last week, why is it so far-fetched that they could lose to Rochester on the road?

Tartan, let me bolster your point a bit.  The eight-game season is finally beginning to rear its ugly head -- I've been pointing out inconsistencies in Hobart stats in games immediately following a break vs. the second and third games after the break.  Strang's numbers especially have been erratic in those second and third games -- I gave him a free pass at WPI because of the freak blizzard at halftime, but his first half numbers were not great.  Last weekend, his second half numbers were mediocre, although he avoided INTs.  This is the first time this season Hobart will have played four consecutive games -- and to me, the RPI loss is exposing the experience gap for this season and the conditioning issues that can be created with an imbalanced schedule.  I think this gives Rochester a chance to win -- but, as you said, it's probably in the 25/30% range.

Now, with all that said, there is a LOT to be optimistic about at Hobart, win or lose this weekend.  Devin Worthington and Tyre Coleman are absolute studs on defense -- and they're a sophomore and freshman, respectively.  Nick Strang will only get better next year in his senior season.  You have running backs by committee right now, but as two of your own offensive linemen said on our show, Steven Webb is still a good home-run hitter for the running game.  Every team has weaknesses -- and your kicking game right now is a mess since neither field goal got off the ground really in the fourth quarter.  Ted Baker spotted that the previous week when I asked him how a team could expect to beat Hobart -- ironic in the end how that exchange transpired.  Your team finished 5-4 last year and is guaranteed to finish no worse than 6-2.  If I had told you that coming into the season, you would've been somewhat happy about it, probably wondering where in the schedule (conference or OOC) the losses would be coming.

Everyone looked at Union at 2-7 last year and expected that it would immediately be able to change to 8-2 or better.  These things take time, experience and a gain of confidence.  Once it became apparent that 8-2 wasn't possible at 0-3, the wheels were beginning to come off internally -- but we all stayed supportive of the team, hopeful that they would play to their true capabilities.  With that, this became a really fun season -- 5-5 or 6-4 is a big improvement over 2-7, although there is a lot of growing and improving to do over the next two years, especially on offense with some major graduations.  However, go ask any one of those players what meant the most to them, and they'll say it was their family's support, the team's supporters supporting the team and just the idea that people weren't spewing venom in their direction aside from some off-handed jokes or criticisms.  How do I know it's true?  After Union won the Dutchman Shoes Game, I went into the hockey rink area to find Drew Connolly for a D3report video interview -- and before I could ask him when he walked in the room, he came up to me and gave me a huge hug.  Even a hardened guy like me almost began to cry because you could see how much the win meant to him and he knew that while we're critical of his performance when he makes mistakes, we don't pearl harbor the team publicly and undermine the growth and maturation process -- and he appreciates that.  It validated, to me, the idea of being fair and balanced while still promoting the student-athletes about whom we commentate.

The point is, the venom the Rev and you have been spewing in your team's direction is somewhat odd after a 5-4 season.  Even James Baker had a rant on ITH Sunday that Eric Ren had to step in during and calm Baker down because the sky has not fallen, the world has not ended and Regis is not disappearing from Earth after this month.  Regardless of what 2011 ends up looking like, 2012 looks to be even a better year for the Statesmen.  Maybe it's time to get behind their efforts instead of becoming unhinged publicly -- tantrums aren't motivational.  Hobart is an excellent team with a group of mature, smart, polite and athletic guys -- you, as a fan, have a lot to be proud of with that group of guys.

[mattvsmith]

Tartan, let me bolster your point a bit.  The eight-game season is finally beginning to rear its ugly head -- I've been pointing out inconsistencies in Hobart stats in games immediately following a break vs. the second and third games after the break.  Strang's numbers especially have been erratic in those second and third games -- I gave him a free pass at WPI because of the freak blizzard at halftime, but his first half numbers were not great.  Last weekend, his second half numbers were mediocre, although he avoided INTs.  This is the first time this season Hobart will have played four consecutive games -- and to me, the RPI loss is exposing the experience gap for this season and the conditioning issues that can be created with an imbalanced schedule.  I think this gives Rochester a chance to win -- but, as you said, it's probably in the 25/30% range.

Now, with all that said, there is a LOT to be optimistic about at Hobart, win or lose this weekend.  Devin Worthington and Tyre Coleman are absolute studs on defense -- and they're a sophomore and freshman, respectively.  Nick Strang will only get better next year in his senior season.  You have running backs by committee right now, but as two of your own offensive linemen said on our show, Steven Webb is still a good home-run hitter for the running game.  Every team has weaknesses -- and your kicking game right now is a mess since neither field goal got off the ground really in the fourth quarter.  Ted Baker spotted that the previous week when I asked him how a team could expect to beat Hobart -- ironic in the end how that exchange transpired.  Your team finished 5-4 last year and is guaranteed to finish no worse than 6-2.  If I had told you that coming into the season, you would've been somewhat happy about it, probably wondering where in the schedule (conference or OOC) the losses would be coming.

Everyone looked at Union at 2-7 last year and expected that it would immediately be able to change to 8-2 or better.  These things take time, experience and a gain of confidence.  Once it became apparent that 8-2 wasn't possible at 0-3, the wheels were beginning to come off internally -- but we all stayed supportive of the team, hopeful that they would play to their true capabilities.  With that, this became a really fun season -- 5-5 or 6-4 is a big improvement over 2-7, although there is a lot of growing and improving to do over the next two years, especially on offense with some major graduations.  However, go ask any one of those players what meant the most to them, and they'll say it was their family's support, the team's supporters supporting the team and just the idea that people weren't spewing venom in their direction aside from some off-handed jokes or criticisms.  How do I know it's true?  After Union won the Dutchman Shoes Game, I went into the hockey rink area to find Drew Connolly for a D3report video interview -- and before I could ask him when he walked in the room, he came up to me and gave me a huge hug.  Even a hardened guy like me almost began to cry because you could see how much the win meant to him and he knew that while we're critical of his performance when he makes mistakes, we don't pearl harbor the team publicly and undermine the growth and maturation process -- and he appreciates that.  It validated, to me, the idea of being fair and balanced while still promoting the student-athletes about whom we commentate.

The point is, the venom the Rev and you have been spewing in your team's direction is somewhat odd after a 5-4 season.  Even James Baker had a rant on ITH Sunday that Eric Ren had to step in during and calm Baker down because the sky has not fallen, the world has not ended and Regis is not disappearing from Earth after this month.  Regardless of what 2011 ends up looking like, 2012 looks to be even a better year for the Statesmen.  Maybe it's time to get behind their efforts instead of becoming unhinged publicly -- tantrums aren't motivational.  Hobart is an excellent team with a group of mature, smart, polite and athletic guys -- you, as a fan, have a lot to be proud of with that group of guys.

Frank, this is the interwebs. A rational thought process has no place here.

Men, continue...

[dlippiel]

I think it would be cool if Union won the conference and then played the NJAC or MAC champ in the playoffs.  I can see them pulling an upset if that happens.

dlip does toooooo!!!!

[Frank Rossi]

Frank, this is the interwebs. A rational thought process has no place here.

Men, continue...

Damn, Rev, you got me.  +K

[pumkinattack]

Tartan, my bitterness led to the first post.  Lew is correct about the second one, intended elsewhere.  That happens a lot on here it seems with many posts flying around.  You are correct, in general and specifically here, that it's all Hobart's fault for letting a couple of three touchdown leads get blown at home after not having a game come inside of two touchdowns all year. 

Having played when Cragg was putting a pulse back in this program and if you go back through the history of this board you'll see how every team that Hobart beat on their way to making the playoffs regularly commented on how the talent on the losing team was better.  They won because of leadership and instinct.  That's lacking, but talent is definitely better.  I saw 5 games in person in 2006 and they won all close games and had a bunch of comebacks on long field drives.  They also executed on the funky plays and fakes.  That's all been gone the past few years and it speaks to focus, discipline and leadership being lacking. 

I've seen you debate people on the negativity on this board and if you want to debate that with respect to Union posters, that's fine.  However you have no idea what or how much I or James or any other former player and/or alum of Hobart has given back and contributed to the school, so you're free to your opinion on that, but you're beyond speculation at this point (not for the first time with Hobart - speculation about the schedule, internal turmoil, questions at WR before this year because what, a talented athlete in Lazore who didn't play football his FR and SO years graduated, but Muratori and Jr Woodard were coming back, etc.).   

[dlippiel]

Everyone looked at Union at 2-7 last year and expected that it would immediately be able to change to 8-2 or better.  These things take time, experience and a gain of confidence.  Once it became apparent that 8-2 wasn't possible at 0-3, the wheels were beginning to come off internally -- but we all stayed supportive of the team, hopeful that they would play to their true capabilities.  With that, this became a really fun season -- 5-5 or 6-4 is a big improvement over 2-7, although there is a lot of growing and improving to do over the next two years, especially on offense with some major graduations.  However, go ask any one of those players what meant the most to them, and they'll say it was their family's support, the team's supporters supporting the team and just the idea that people weren't spewing venom in their direction aside from some off-handed jokes or criticisms.  How do I know it's true?  After Union won the Dutchman Shoes Game, I went into the hockey rink area to find Drew Connolly for a D3report video interview -- and before I could ask him when he walked in the room, he came up to me and gave me a huge hug.  Even a hardened guy like me almost began to cry because you could see how much the win meant to him and he knew that while we're critical of his performance when he makes mistakes, we don't pearl harbor the team publicly and undermine the growth and maturation process -- and he appreciates that.  It validated, to me, the idea of being fair and balanced while still promoting the student-athletes about whom we commentate.

This is a good point, boy this year dlip has really turned into a Rossi ass-kisser hasn't he? 

Honestly, this is a good set of words regarding Union's maturation throughout the year. The program has wondered into some uncharted Dutcmen territory in the past two years. It is hard, when one loves a program, especially one with the history and prestige of Union, to not get upset and/or emotional when things don't go the way one is accustomed to them going. Yet, at this point in the 2011 season, dlip can honestly say, that he is as proud as ever to be a Union football fan (obsessor  ). dlip has been critical, at times, of this program. He has even been critical of certain individual players (which is a first for him), but he has tried to do so in an appropriate manner. At the same time, he feels just so proud of the heart these kids have shown throughout the past two seasons. Frank references the 0-3 start. That sucked, but looking back, coupled with last years struggles, it may have been the building block for the maturation of the Union players. You can say this Union team is not like the teams of old; true. You can say that this team has underachieved at certain points last year and early this year; true. You cannot, however, say that this team does not have the heart and soul of a champion. That this team has not worked to improve every week of the season and learn from it's mistakes. dlip is more proud of this team than of the teams who rolled through regular seasons where anything less than a 0 in the loss column was unacceptable.

Union has the ability to be a solid LL rep in the tourney. dlip concurrs with Utah that union would be able to possibly score an upset in the first round. Honestly, dlip thinks Bart wins this weekend so all of this Union/NCAA talk will be moot. As far as Union goes, like dlip continues to say, he loves this team and is just honored to be a fan and supporter (maybe someday that will get him back into the press box  ) he kids he kids Frank...

[Frank Rossi]

If you don't think I speak with James about 5 times a week and that we don't discuss Hobart, his contributions and everything else, you're off your rocker.  It's why I picked up the phone right after ITH two weeks ago when the OL guys gave him a shout-out for "Comin' Atcha" because public support for his efforts were long overdue. 

That said, your time and commitment to the program doesn't justify public bashing of the guys you claim to support.  If that were the case, I'd be able to go on the air Saturday and dwell on a bad play by Union for 45 minutes on Senior Day since, hey, I'm one of their most ardent supporters and earned that right.  It's backward logic and undermines the supportive efforts of which you speak (and it is those efforts I truly appreciate -- much like Baker's).  You're right -- we all have a right to our opinion.  However, you sometimes need to look at the big picture before you go and spout off about it.

[lewdogg11]

If you don't think I speak with James about 5 times a week and that we don't discuss Hobart, his contributions and everything else, you're off your rocker.  It's why I picked up the phone right after ITH two weeks ago when the OL guys gave him a shout-out for "Comin' Atcha" because public support for his efforts were long overdue. 

That said, your time and commitment to the program doesn't justify public bashing of the guys you claim to support.  If that were the case, I'd be able to go on the air Saturday and dwell on a bad play by Union for 45 minutes on Senior Day since, hey, I'm one of their most ardent supporters and earned that right.  It's backward logic and undermines the supportive efforts of which you speak (and it is those efforts I truly appreciate -- much like Baker's).  You're right -- we all have a right to our opinion.  However, you sometimes need to look at the big picture before you go and spout off about it.

Fans have ALL the rights in the world to express their disappointment, thoughts, feelings, etc.  Media or you in this case also has that right.  Coaches, players, parents, alumni, students, former students, former players, etc etc etc ALL have this right.  Now I don't feel right bashing specific players over and over in this setting, but the teams as a whole, coaches, philosophies, other posters, all are fair game here and everywhere.  I'm sure it is talked about in the parking lot before games, in the stands, in the locker rooms and anywhere else where people who give 2 sh!ts gather.  So why not here?

There is an RPI football facebook page where one of the 'supporters' made some pretty harsh comments on one of RPI's better players, and they weren't even comments about his play, but about him as a person and it made me sick to my stomach.  But if if you have issues about programs, coaches, Administrations, etc, have at it.