FB: Liberty League

[jackson5]

Hobart, I don't know the reason for their success. For St John Fisher and RPI you have some of the best facilities in the region. The Bills train at Fisher's and RPI spent a crap ton on D-1 quality football stadium. Union doesn't have that, their stadium is just a step above high school and isn't even considered for the state tournament while RPI's across town was begged for use by Section 2 until Albany built their new stadium. Throw in that throwing RPI or WPI grad on your resume and you'll get an interview at almost every company you apply to and you can see why it's not an apples to apples comparison to Union.  Yes it's not an end all tell all for Union. And yes schools like Hobart and Ithaca got around issues that Union is facing right now.  But its just a truth of the matter, its harder to win at schools like Union. If you don't have either great academics where you can recruit D-2 and D-1 type players who aren't going pro, have great facilities to impress the kids, have low instate tuition, or no academic standards so you can let in every player you recruit, you have a disadvantage.

Also for the rise of their hockey program. Have you thought of maybe that might be taking away funding and focus from the football team that prevents them from competing also?

A great coach will be able to work around all of this and win anyways, but these are all factors that you have to consider as to why Union has been down recently. It's not as simple as "Oh Audino is past his prime and lost it, time to clean house"

[ITH radio]

Hobart's facilities are on par or better than most. They had about a $3mm+ upgrade a couple seasons ago - field, stands, stadium, locker room, etc are all top notch. It may not be an ECAV, but it's no dump either.

Also can't discount that Cragg's been there since 86 and until Yoder left to take over the Shenandoah program, it's been the same coaching staff, system in place since the early 2000's. That continuity is a big selling point.

Well placed alumni in NYC and elsewhere helps too. Nick Strang for example got a job with JP Morgan directly due to a Hobart FB alum. Obviously all the schools in the LL offer great educations, facilities, etc. RPI, UofR and Union, as are the rest of the schools in the league are all highly ranked / regarded.

Sometimes it's just sticking with a winner. Hobarts won over 30 regular season games dating back to 2011. That's a long time to a 16-17 yr old. I can't speak to the quality of a Mt Union degree but you can bet if you want to win FB games, there's a definite track record (if you can crack the lineup) which sells itself.

[Jonny Utah]

Of course there are all kinds of factors that go into this, but generally speaking, a lot of these schools have similar barriers.  Of course there are differences in academic standards and financial aid packages etc etc, but Union is not in some unique situation that others aren't facing. 
I think Union has a huge advantage with their hockey program making them a name brand as well as some national exposure in some recent publications about the quality of the school and education. 

Yup. +1

It might just be a small anecdote, but I've know 2 or 3 students over the past 7 years who have gotten triple the amount of aid from Hobart than from union. 

I think Hobarts coaching staff is probably the biggest reason they've been better than union, but I've seen the financial aid stuff first hand with those two schools.

I've also had experiences with emails not being returned from Union coaches for players that ended up going to nescac schools and doing well.  That could be an exception but, it happened.

[dlippiel]

This is quite an interesting discussion. **** Dlip can't remember when Union has gotton so much attention on the LLPP...too bad it's a discussion about it's woes .

In all seriousness there are a lot of factors involved here and Dlip will try to address them the best he can as a Union fan.

First Dlip will say with almost 100% certainty that both the men's and women's D1 hockey programs have really hurt Union Football. Don't get Dlip wrong he gets what Lew is saying about the notoriety it is bringing the school and Dlip believes their is some truth to that. However, with that said inside the athletic department, even with an AD who was on the 89 Stagg Bowl team, the focus is on two things, men's and women's ice hockey and women's sports. Football, which used to be the top dog, is not receiving the attention it used to. Now in regards to aid, academic exceptions, etc he does not know the specifics there. Dlip just knows on the priority pole it's way the **** down. As far as tuition costs and academic attractiveness Dlip feels Union is not a whole lot different than many of the schools others have mentioned. To Dlip that is somewhat of a moot point.

As far as talent goes to Dlip the depth is not there across the board. With that being said there is some serious talent at Union right now on both sides of the football.

So what's the problem? Dlip really does not know. He believes it is a combination of everything that everyone has been saying. He doesn't know if there is one clear problem and solution. All Dlip knows is that at 0-4 and with Unions recent struggles he thinks any area of discussion is appropriate considering the lack of winning. However the days of undefeated seasons and deep playoff run type expectations are over. Right or wrong that is the reality for Dlip.

Dlip really loves. Union football. It represents not only Dlip's favorite sport played by true scholar athletes but it is representative of a big part of Dlip's childhood and relationship with his father. Lately it has grown from that to the Union College Football family opening it's arms and welcoming Dlip, an admitted outsider, into their world. For that Dlip is eternally grateful and forever loyal. With that being said Dlip is also a realist (to some degree) and feels, as someone who admittedly misses the Dutchmen being a winning program. So he would like to see things get turned around on the field.

One area he feels needs a ton of attention and has for some time is the play of the secondary and the defensive philosophy. For instance 3-4 is the most passive defensive fronts going. Union has some VERY talented D line players. Yet when it is constantly 3 against 4 or 5 very little gets through on a consistent basis. Now if this lack of pressure supported the secondary and made the U really defend the pass well Dlip wouldn't mind it. However our pass D is always beyond a weakness and gets exploited by opponents week in and week out. So not only do we struggle in the secondary with reads and coverages but we do not pressure the QB at all. On top of this our occasional outside blitzs are so predictable and "Outside" that they are almost always picked up or completely ineffective. Right now we have some very athletic defenders in our secondary but there has been continued breakdowns there without adjustments. Just some thoughts for discussion. Dlip continues to learn the intricacies of the game and loves talking about them.

Honestly this is Dlip's two cents to the extent that he'll open himself up on here. He knows there are problems, he sees them. Yet to him Union football is about more than W's and L's but about people, players, and history. To Dlip, that is where the importance sits...even if the losing is very difficult to deal with.

[Doid23]

Keep the faith Dlip, love your passion and feelin' your pain. +k

[ITH radio]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

[lewdogg11]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

This all just continues to say that Union doesn't have enough talented players and I just find that way too hard to believe.  I guess we just have to see how it shakes out.  It's entirely possible that their first 4 games were against very good teams.  We'll get a better gauge on St. Lawrence this week vs. RPI, Springfield vs. Hobart, Ithaca vs. Buff St, and Utica vs. Salisbury.  Every game Union has played was a close loss so it doesn't seem so much a talent issue to me, but a failure to know how to win in critical moments or a big mistake here or there.  I think those 2 Salve Regina losses in 2011 and 2012 maybe foreshadowed that.  This weekend should be a great one to see where everyone stands and Union has a week off to evaluate just where they are.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.

[D3MAFAN]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

This all just continues to say that Union doesn't have enough talented players and I just find that way too hard to believe.  I guess we just have to see how it shakes out.  It's entirely possible that their first 4 games were against very good teams.  We'll get a better gauge on St. Lawrence this week vs. RPI, Springfield vs. Hobart, Ithaca vs. Buff St, and Utica vs. Salisbury.  Every game Union has played was a close loss so it doesn't seem so much a talent issue to me, but a failure to know how to win in critical moments or a big mistake here or there.  I think those 2 Salve Regina losses in 2011 and 2012 maybe foreshadowed that.  This weekend should be a great one to see where everyone stands and Union has a week off to evaluate just where they are.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.

I am still trying to figure out how RPI St. Lawrence loss to Norwich, it messes with my rankings every week.

[lewdogg11]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

This all just continues to say that Union doesn't have enough talented players and I just find that way too hard to believe.  I guess we just have to see how it shakes out.  It's entirely possible that their first 4 games were against very good teams.  We'll get a better gauge on St. Lawrence this week vs. RPI, Springfield vs. Hobart, Ithaca vs. Buff St, and Utica vs. Salisbury.  Every game Union has played was a close loss so it doesn't seem so much a talent issue to me, but a failure to know how to win in critical moments or a big mistake here or there.  I think those 2 Salve Regina losses in 2011 and 2012 maybe foreshadowed that.  This weekend should be a great one to see where everyone stands and Union has a week off to evaluate just where they are.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.

I am still trying to figure out how RPI loss to Norwich, it messes with my rankings every week.

RPI beat Norwich 29-9.  I'm assuming you mean Alfred?

[ITH radio]

In an interview with a SLU from earlier in the season it kind of sounded like SLU may have overlooked the Cadets somewhat. The weather that day was awful and SLU is really a passing O now so that messed them up too.

Ultimately a few drops on the final series made a potential close win a loss. SLU really should be 5-0 IMO. I do think RPI will give them fits and could win, but SLU's D seems pretty tough. Chryon Brown-Wallace will give the RPI OL a tough day.

[lewdogg11]

In an interview with a SLU from earlier in the season it kind of sounded like SLU may have overlooked the Cadets somewhat. The weather that day was awful and SLU is really a passing O now so that messed them up too.

Ultimately a few drops on the final series made a potential close win a loss. SLU really should be 5-0 IMO. I do think RPI will give them fits and could win, but SLU's D seems pretty tough. Chryon Brown-Wallace will give the RPI OL a tough day.

So you think St. Lawrence is favored in this one?  I didn't have that feeling.  Should be a good game.  Weather looks to be nice, it's homecoming in Troy.  I think RPI mops the field with them personally, but RPI has definitely had letdown games in the past few years so who knows...

[AUPepBand]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

This all just continues to say that Union doesn't have enough talented players and I just find that way too hard to believe.  I guess we just have to see how it shakes out.  It's entirely possible that their first 4 games were against very good teams.  We'll get a better gauge on St. Lawrence this week vs. RPI, Springfield vs. Hobart, Ithaca vs. Buff St, and Utica vs. Salisbury.  Every game Union has played was a close loss so it doesn't seem so much a talent issue to me, but a failure to know how to win in critical moments or a big mistake here or there.  I think those 2 Salve Regina losses in 2011 and 2012 maybe foreshadowed that.  This weekend should be a great one to see where everyone stands and Union has a week off to evaluate just where they are.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.

I am still trying to figure out how RPI loss to Norwich, it messes with my rankings every week.

...or did you mean how SLU lost to Norwich? As already stated, RPI won at Norwich 29-9...

Pep thinks RPI is the real deal and the Alfred win was a real steal! RPI 27, St. Lawrence 21

[D3MAFAN]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

This all just continues to say that Union doesn't have enough talented players and I just find that way too hard to believe.  I guess we just have to see how it shakes out.  It's entirely possible that their first 4 games were against very good teams.  We'll get a better gauge on St. Lawrence this week vs. RPI, Springfield vs. Hobart, Ithaca vs. Buff St, and Utica vs. Salisbury.  Every game Union has played was a close loss so it doesn't seem so much a talent issue to me, but a failure to know how to win in critical moments or a big mistake here or there.  I think those 2 Salve Regina losses in 2011 and 2012 maybe foreshadowed that.  This weekend should be a great one to see where everyone stands and Union has a week off to evaluate just where they are.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.

I am still trying to figure out how RPI loss to Norwich, it messes with my rankings every week.

RPI beat Norwich 29-9.  I'm assuming you mean Alfred?

It was St. Lawrence, thanks for the correction.

[ITH radio]

1,000th game for RPI too. Preview and links to game notes are below:

http://rpiathletics.com/news/2014/10/9/FB_1009141145.aspx

Speaking of game notes, found this in the SLU notes which is both helpful and kind of amusing:

PRONUNCIATION GUIDE
Hugues Benimana ..........Benny-mah-na
Chyron Brown-Wallace.... Ky-ren
Ryan Byrne.................. Burn
Andrew Carvalho......... Car-vall-o
Spencer DeCinque....... Deh-sink-you
Alec Dietsch................. Deetch
Edward Doton.............. Doh-ton
Kyle Fiske.................... Fisk
Saahil Fruitwala........... Sah-heel
Colden Golann............. Goal-en
Jake Gnieser................. Neezer
Rajiv Heron.................. Hair-on
Evan Lapice................. La-piece
Mike Lefflbine............. Leff-el-bine
Jayson Leigh................ Lee
John Lesofsky.............. Less-off-ski
Austen Lauricella......... Lore-eh-sell-a
Charlie Maistrellis........ Mah-strell-iss
Steven Napolitano........ Nap-lih-tah-no
Ugo Njeze.................... Nuh-jeh-zay
Connor Pease............... Peez
Mitchell Peltier............. Pell-teer
Chad Piatek.................. Pee-AH-teck
Tom Vangel.................. Van-gel

[lewdogg11]

1,000th game for RPI too. Preview and links to game notes are below:

http://rpiathletics.com/news/2014/10/9/FB_1009141145.aspx

Speaking of game notes, found this in the SLU notes which is both helpful and kind of amusing:

PRONUNCIATION GUIDE
Hugues Benimana ..........Benny-mah-na
Chyron Brown-Wallace.... Ky-ren
Ryan Byrne.................. Burn
Andrew Carvalho......... Car-vall-o
Spencer DeCinque....... Deh-sink-you
Alec Dietsch................. Deetch
Edward Doton.............. Doh-ton
Kyle Fiske.................... Fisk
Saahil Fruitwala........... Sah-heel
Colden Golann............. Goal-en
Jake Gnieser................. Neezer
Rajiv Heron.................. Hair-on
Evan Lapice................. La-piece
Mike Lefflbine............. Leff-el-bine
Jayson Leigh................ Lee
John Lesofsky.............. Less-off-ski
Austen Lauricella......... Lore-eh-sell-a
Charlie Maistrellis........ Mah-strell-iss
Steven Napolitano........ Nap-lih-tah-no
Ugo Njeze.................... Nuh-jeh-zay
Connor Pease............... Peez
Mitchell Peltier............. Pell-teer
Chad Piatek.................. Pee-AH-teck
Tom Vangel.................. Van-gel

Those all black Uni's are so sweet.