FB: Liberty League

[Bombers798891]

Utes with all due respect, I DID watch the game and twice Union "put themselves in a position to win". They had a first and goal in the 3rd qtr that resulted in a FG and another 1st and goal in the 4th that resulted in a missed FG, admittedly after a sack...the ONLY one that Ithaca had in the game. As for the fumble, it was by senior captain Jermain Carn and IMO if this game had the benefit of replay, I believe he was down by contact before the ball came out, BUT... I believe Union not only should have won the game but that they also played better than Ithaca. If you had actually watched the game you might feel that way too.   

Bill, with all due respect, a 1st-and-goal with six minutes remaining in the third quarter when you're down 7-0 is not "being in position to win." It's more like "being in a position to tie with a third of the game still to play."

[Upstate]

Agreed Dlip/Bartman! This is a new day for Union football. The staff was very encouraged by the team's play and knew they should have won the game. This is a hungry squad that is for sure going to surprise people in 2016!

Roll Dutch!

Knew they should have won the game?  Interesting.  IC was one bad QB decision from being up 21-3 in the 3rd.  Don't get me wrong, I though Union may have been the better team even, but they shouldn't have won the game, not with that QB and offense.

Actually I agree with Eagle, Union should have won the game. Union QB Nick Cascione after being a pitiful 2/12 for 25 yds. in the first half was 11/15, 145 yds in the second. Union had a huge time of possession edge 33:08/26:52. Ithaca won the game solely thanks to a "scoop and score" that gave them their 14 points. THEIR offense and QB were the ones that stunk it up in the second half.   

Saying a team should have won the game is different than saying a team is better, or that a team played better, even saying a team deserved to win a game.  I didn't watch that game you are talking about and I don't think Union should have won it.  They didn't put themselves in the position to win it at any given time.  When they were close to putting themselves in the position to win, they fumbled on one drive, and got sacked twice on the other drive.  Ithaca didn't do that, therefore they should have won the game.

My opinion anyway.

edit:  I didn't know a fumble return for a score "gives" a team 14 points.  Maybe they should have had a running back in there that doesn't fumble?

Utes with all due respect, I DID watch the game and twice Union "put themselves in a position to win". They had a first and goal in the 3rd qtr that resulted in a FG and another 1st and goal in the 4th that resulted in a missed FG, admittedly after a sack...the ONLY one that Ithaca had in the game. As for the fumble, it was by senior captain Jermain Carn and IMO if this game had the benefit of replay, I believe he was down by contact before the ball came out, BUT... I believe Union not only should have won the game but that they also played better than Ithaca. If you had actually watched the game you might feel that way too.   

Just watched the clip of the play in question. He clearly was on his feet and lost the handle when the defender grabbed his arm, reached out to try to retain possession and then went down.

See it for yourself: https://portal.stretchinternet.com/ithaca/portal.htm?eventId=307710&streamType=video  (Great portal, BTW)

Good find Pep!

Unless this is two hand touch, he wasn't down by contact.

The only way he was down is if he was feeling depressed for fumbling the ball.

[AUPepBand]

Good find Pep!

Unless this is two hand touch, he wasn't down by contact.

The only way he was "down" is if he was feeling "depressed" for fumbling the ball.

Good one! +K

Film shows that it was definitely a "Debbie Downer" moment.

[Olorin]

Well, I for one am ready for the RPI-Alfred game.

Should be a good challenge for the Engineers at home. They're young on offense but seem to have good offensive and defensive lines. We shall see.

[AUPepBand]

Well, I for one am ready for the RPI-Alfred game.

Should be a good challenge for the Engineers at home. They're young on offense but seem to have good offensive and defensive lines. We shall see.

It should be a great game. Would love to be there, but still catching up on stuff around home after taking a three-week 8,235 mile journey in July-August. Will be watching online.

On Saxon Warriors!

[Bartman]

LL Picks for the week:

    RPI       28     Alfred          27(Game of the week)
    Union    21     WestConn    20(Losing streak ends)
    Hobart  35     Endicott       14
    UofR     21     Catholic       17
    SLU      35     Norwich       17
    WPI      30     Worchester    7
    MM       24     USCGA        21
    SJF       42     Springfield   21

    LL goes 7-1 out of conference

[Frank Rossi]

We've obviously discussed Union extensively over the last couple podcasts, and there are three things I'll underscore a bit here after reading the back and forth:

1) The par value for Union this season is 3-7.  The 2015 team was probably a two-win team that couldn't finish close games and lost confidence in themselves.  Experience on defense and some new excitement in defensive schemes should account for some improvement.  That's why the common view is in the 3-4 win zone.  That doesn't mean they can't surprise teams -- we're just discussing prognostication based on what we know coming in and what we saw Saturday...

2) There are a couple things to remember about the Union performance against Ithaca Saturday.  First, Ithaca basically had no film for the new offense and defense to study.  There are obvious changes that have been made, and Ithaca was forced to react all game long.  With Ithaca's youth, that was a challenge.  Union performed better than I expected even despite that issue, but Ithaca seemed uncomfortable offensively all game long, even early.  Unexpected defensive schemes can do that to a team.  Union had chances, but so did Ithaca.  It was a balanced game in that respect, and the team we assumed would win did with more adventure than we expected...

3) The WestConn game poses a couple issues that are different from the Ithaca game (and we saw one of these issues last season).  First, they have game film to study and have a better idea than Ithaca of what to expect.  Second, Ithaca does not have the run-game athletes that WestConn appears to have (like last year).  Ithaca was not run-centric Saturday, so I'm not sure what to expect in rush defense success for Union yet.  The one upside for Union this year vs. WestConn is that it's a home game for Union.  Last year, Union bussed to WestConn late for a night game and ended up flat early because of the bus-to-field problem (this isn't a coach's choice, so you can point fingers accordingly).  We'll see if WestConn comes to Schenectady early and acclimates over a longer period than Union did last year -- but it does reduce one advantage WestConn had last season.

This could be a winnable game for Union, but their rush defense must be strong to succeed.  Else, it could be a long evening.  Travel safe, everyone.

[Jonny Utah]

Agreed Dlip/Bartman! This is a new day for Union football. The staff was very encouraged by the team's play and knew they should have won the game. This is a hungry squad that is for sure going to surprise people in 2016!

Roll Dutch!

Knew they should have won the game?  Interesting.  IC was one bad QB decision from being up 21-3 in the 3rd.  Don't get me wrong, I though Union may have been the better team even, but they shouldn't have won the game, not with that QB and offense.

Actually I agree with Eagle, Union should have won the game. Union QB Nick Cascione after being a pitiful 2/12 for 25 yds. in the first half was 11/15, 145 yds in the second. Union had a huge time of possession edge 33:08/26:52. Ithaca won the game solely thanks to a "scoop and score" that gave them their 14 points. THEIR offense and QB were the ones that stunk it up in the second half.   

Saying a team should have won the game is different than saying a team is better, or that a team played better, even saying a team deserved to win a game.  I didn't watch that game you are talking about and I don't think Union should have won it.  They didn't put themselves in the position to win it at any given time.  When they were close to putting themselves in the position to win, they fumbled on one drive, and got sacked twice on the other drive.  Ithaca didn't do that, therefore they should have won the game.

My opinion anyway.

edit:  I didn't know a fumble return for a score "gives" a team 14 points.  Maybe they should have had a running back in there that doesn't fumble?

Utes with all due respect, I DID watch the game and twice Union "put themselves in a position to win". They had a first and goal in the 3rd qtr that resulted in a FG and another 1st and goal in the 4th that resulted in a missed FG, admittedly after a sack...the ONLY one that Ithaca had in the game. As for the fumble, it was by senior captain Jermain Carn and IMO if this game had the benefit of replay, I believe he was down by contact before the ball came out, BUT... I believe Union not only should have won the game but that they also played better than Ithaca. If you had actually watched the game you might feel that way too.   

UBill, let me clarify, I did watch the game Union/Ithaca game, what I didn't watch, was the game you are talking about where Ithaca was given 14 points on a fumble return (forget the fact that TDs are 6 points), or that the runner was down on contact (which also didn't happen).  I was being facetious with that comment.

I just think you are using the wrong word when you said "should" have won.  And I hope the coaches didn't use that word either, because if they did they have the wrong attitude.  I agree with you (and I even said so), that Union probably played better, but that is a different concept than saying a team should have won a game.

[Jonny Utah]

We've obviously discussed Union extensively over the last couple podcasts, and there are three things I'll underscore a bit here after reading the back and forth:

1) The par value for Union this season is 3-7.  The 2015 team was probably a two-win team that couldn't finish close games and lost confidence in themselves.  Experience on defense and some new excitement in defensive schemes should account for some improvement.  That's why the common view is in the 3-4 win zone.  That doesn't mean they can't surprise teams -- we're just discussing prognostication based on what we know coming in and what we saw Saturday...

2) There are a couple things to remember about the Union performance against Ithaca Saturday.  First, Ithaca basically had no film for the new offense and defense to study.  There are obvious changes that have been made, and Ithaca was forced to react all game long.  With Ithaca's youth, that was a challenge.  Union performed better than I expected even despite that issue, but Ithaca seemed uncomfortable offensively all game long, even early.  Unexpected defensive schemes can do that to a team.  Union had chances, but so did Ithaca.  It was a balanced game in that respect, and the team we assumed would win did with more adventure than we expected...

3) The WestConn game poses a couple issues that are different from the Ithaca game (and we saw one of these issues last season).  First, they have game film to study and have a better idea than Ithaca of what to expect.  Second, Ithaca does not have the run-game athletes that WestConn appears to have (like last year).  Ithaca was not run-centric Saturday, so I'm not sure what to expect in rush defense success for Union yet.  The one upside for Union this year vs. WestConn is that it's a home game for Union.  Last year, Union bussed to WestConn late for a night game and ended up flat early because of the bus-to-field problem (this isn't a coach's choice, so you can point fingers accordingly).  We'll see if WestConn comes to Schenectady early and acclimates over a longer period than Union did last year -- but it does reduce one advantage WestConn had last season.

This could be a winnable game for Union, but their rush defense must be strong to succeed.  Else, it could be a long evening.  Travel safe, everyone.

Well said Frank, but I would add that Union also had an advantage in that they knew exactly what Ithaca was going to run on offense, because they have been running the same variation of 4 runs and 6 passes for the last 4 years.  As an FYI, Ithaca's offense looks like that against most teams.

In all seriousness, Union appeared to have some playmakers at LB, and their punter is going to help them.  That QB is going to need some time to learn, and they had some good wrinkles that I think they can add to.  Not having the Tommy A., Marotti, Angileetta, and Twichell types is what kills teams like Union running a pro style offense (Ithaca is in the same boat).  If you can't pound the ball, the play action isn't going to work as well.

[Bombers798891]

Union had chances, but so did Ithaca.  It was a balanced game in that respect, and the team we assumed would win did with more adventure than we expected...

I think Frank is dead on with this.

[UfanBill]

Very disappointed that Union could not pull out a win today losing 14-9 to Ithaca. They largely outplayed Ithaca, especially in the second half BUT found a way to lose. A fumble and scoop to the house was Ithaca's ONLY really positive play in the second half but it was enough. Union had numerous chances with great field position all day but couldn't make enough big plays.

Utes...My turn to clarify. Above is my initial post minutes after the game. Anything I said later was in response to Eagle322 who is the one who first said that the Union staff "knew they should have won the game". I largely agreed with Eagle.  OK, after watching the video of the Carn fumble I admit there is no question it WAS a fumble. Nice play by Ithaca. The "scoop and score" "gave" them the total of 14 points, much like the final horn "gave" Ithaca the 14-9 victory. However a fumble IS often commonly referred to as a "give away" so I'll stick with that.  As to Frank Rossi's post I have utmost respect for Frank's work with Union football and mostly agree with his take. I don't however, think Union did anything unusual or tricky either offensively or defensively so I don't really see Ithaca's struggles as being linked to not being able to see game films. I just came away with the opinion that the Bombers have much work to do to be competitive in the E8. I'm looking forward to seeing what WNEU will bring this Saturday and I'm optimistically predicting a 23-20 Union victory.     

[Bombers798891]

However a fumble IS often commonly referred to as a "give away" so I'll stick with that.

So why can't we say the same thing about Ithaca's giveaways, which took away their chances to extend their lead beyond the 7-3 score it was before the fumble?

[Union2000]

Very disappointed that Union could not pull out a win today losing 14-9 to Ithaca. They largely outplayed Ithaca, especially in the second half BUT found a way to lose. A fumble and scoop to the house was Ithaca's ONLY really positive play in the second half but it was enough. Union had numerous chances with great field position all day but couldn't make enough big plays.

Utes...My turn to clarify. Above is my initial post minutes after the game. Anything I said later was in response to Eagle322 who is the one who first said that the Union staff "knew they should have won the game". I largely agreed with Eagle.  OK, after watching the video of the Carn fumble I admit there is no question it WAS a fumble. Nice play by Ithaca. The "scoop and score" "gave" them the total of 14 points, much like the final horn "gave" Ithaca the 14-9 victory. However a fumble IS often commonly referred to as a "give away" so I'll stick with that.  As to Frank Rossi's post I have utmost respect for Frank's work with Union football and mostly agree with his take. I don't however, think Union did anything unusual or tricky either offensively or defensively so I don't really see Ithaca's struggles as being linked to not being able to see game films. I just came away with the opinion that the Bombers have much work to do to be competitive in the E8. I'm looking forward to seeing what WNEU will bring this Saturday and I'm optimistically predicting a 23-20 Union victory.     

I also saw nothing in Union's schemes that suggest absence of game film had a total impact - they did nothing fancy. To me, Union's improvement seemed mostly the product of much greater discipline (almost no penalties), vastly better execution on defense, special teams and even offense, and more patient, efficient play calling.  (Unlike past years, they patently ran the ball and threw safe passes, notwithstanding all the 3 and outs in the first half.  That kept game possession time even, avoided needless interceptions and sacks that would have put us in a hole, let the defense rest, and allowed to begin physically wear down Ithaca in the second half.)  Overall talent level seemed the same.

[dlippiel]

dlip has missed out on much of the chatter this week as it was his first week with students. The talk about Union is interesting.

Here are his thoughts:

Regarding the Ithaca game dlip felt it was a very balanced game between two evenly matched teams. He felt the Dutchmen had an excellent day on defense and established a clear identity on offense. The Carn fumble was the game breaker for sure. It happens and is part of the game. Ithaca took advantage and made the plays when they had to. Union, on offense, simply did not. With that said dlip was/is ecstatic about what he saw with the Dutchmen. It has been some time since he has seen such a disciplined Union team.

To dlip Union does not have a big time "playmaker" on the offensive side of the ball. Connor Kinzelmann is probably the biggest break away offensive threat and he was hurt and out of the game early. Hopefully someone will step up and make some plays. dlip was impressed with a couple of the receivers who continued to get separation and find space. Unfortunately for much of the game Nick was unable to get them the football. For the U offense to really execute outside of the run Nick will have to be more accurate and make timely throws. dlip loves his heart and his never give up approach.

Today will be a big test for the Dutchmen D. West Conn has some athletes on O and a QB/RB read option/short pass attack that decimated the Dutchmen last season. Bus ride or not they were out coached on the defensive side of the ball last year and could not stop the Colonials at all.

To dlip this season is not about W's and L's but it's about growth and the rebuilding of a program (that for whatever reasons) that fell father and harder than and ****ing mack truck over Niagara Falls over the past decade. dlip is looking for growth and he saw it last week. Behrman needs time and there will most certainly be steps backward. dlip feels the Dutchmen are headed in the right direction and have something to believe in. Let's see how today plays out. dlip can't ****ing wait to get to Frank Bailey today!

+k to the page! Welcome Union2000, stay around. UfanBill and I need you!

[dlippiel]

By the way, congrats to WPI on whipping their crosstown rival! Well done Engineers! You deserve to be 2-0!