FB: Liberty League

[UfanBill]

Dlip, I agree with your seven but we all know without eight, it's not enough! How about this school for number eight. Geographically, it's right in the middle of all the LL...academically, it's unquestionably of a high caliber and athletically...it would fit right in. Perfect, except for one large problem...HAMILTON is presently a member of NESCAC and to my knowledge has no plans to leave that league...Or do they? Hamilton has always been the outsider of the Nescac. The only school not located in New England. Maybe, if approached, Hamilton could be convinced that they would be better suited to join their New York brothers.Makes sense to me.

[D3pc]

Hamilton used to be in the LL not too long ago. Although it makes perfect sense and the LL has some great academic schools, it does not have the same reputation as the NESCAC. Although, new head coach Murray would probably vouch for the switch.

I believe Clarkson added a club football team a few years back. I wonder if there is any plan there to add it full time.

[jknezek]

Dlip, I agree with your seven but we all know without eight, it's not enough! How about this school for number eight. Geographically, it's right in the middle of all the LL...academically, it's unquestionably of a high caliber and athletically...it would fit right in. Perfect, except for one large problem...HAMILTON is presently a member of NESCAC and to my knowledge has no plans to leave that league...Or do they? Hamilton has always been the outsider of the Nescac. The only school not located in New England. Maybe, if approached, Hamilton could be convinced that they would be better suited to join their New York brothers.Makes sense to me.

The Liberty League is full of really good schools, but you don't give up your association with the NESCAC schools lightly. There aren't too many liberal arts schools with the national draw and reputation of the NESCAC schools. I don't think you'll find a school administrator out there that would make this kind of switch these days.

[AUKaz00]

Speaking of geographic and academic fit, I'd think that Hartwick would mesh nicely with the LL.

[Jonny Utah]

The Liberty League is an excellent Division III football league consisting of some incredible academic and athletic institutions like, Hobart, RPI, Rochester, Merchant Marine Academy, WPI, and St. Lawrence. Springfield is also in the league (not trying to be a dick here but IDHO Springfield is simply not on the academic level of the other schools) but will be departing next year, with MMA and WPI for the newly formed NEWMAC league.

Ithaca College will be bringing their tradition of football and academic excellence to the league starting next season replacing Springfield, WPI, and MMA. The LL will be searching hard for another three members to make 8 teams and meet the NCAA's guidelines for an automatic bid to the NCAA tourney. dlip believes they have until 2019 to fill the three spots before being denied an auto bid. dlip will certainly miss MMA and WPI because of the character that both of those schools possess.

Actually LL only needs 1 more school to retain the AQ (min is 7). You have the 4 original UCAA schools (HOB, SLU, UC & RPI) plus UofR and IC to make 6. Hopefully Alfred or someone will take the plunge soon. Planning on Pool B access down the road would be a bad idea for the LL.

Pool B can be very dangerous, if you schedule weak or if the schedule doesn't appear to be as strong as predicted, you could be left home at 9-1 (see FSU 2014) and playing an ECAC game. If you do schedule tough you risk losing and not making it, you are basically in playoff mode the whole season not having that chance fall back on a conference slate. You can have a young team that doesn't click until later in the season and be left out. Playing in Pool B, you are left playing whoever would take you that week and may only get 8 or 9 games.

True, but I believe the NCAA has been more forgiving historically to conference champs getting pool B bids as opposed to 2nd place teams in pool A conferences (2014 Framingham) getting bids.

I am not overly worried about LL champs getting overlooked for pool B playoff spots.  I think the bigger issue would be if an 8-2/7-3 LL champ does not make it, and that scenario is probably more likely than a 9-1 champ or 2nd place team not making it.   All bias aside, Ithaca is probably able to beat any LL team in any given year, even when IC is down.  That makes the overall conference stronger, but also turns the league into more of a slugfest, which isn't always great when trying to figure out who the "elite" teams in the league are.

[Frank Rossi]

If one of the three independent teams disbands football or joins a conference (and no other independent replaces them), Pool B in 2019 will get zero bids.

[D3MAFAN]

The Liberty League is an excellent Division III football league consisting of some incredible academic and athletic institutions like, Hobart, RPI, Rochester, Merchant Marine Academy, WPI, and St. Lawrence. Springfield is also in the league (not trying to be a dick here but IDHO Springfield is simply not on the academic level of the other schools) but will be departing next year, with MMA and WPI for the newly formed NEWMAC league.

Ithaca College will be bringing their tradition of football and academic excellence to the league starting next season replacing Springfield, WPI, and MMA. The LL will be searching hard for another three members to make 8 teams and meet the NCAA's guidelines for an automatic bid to the NCAA tourney. dlip believes they have until 2019 to fill the three spots before being denied an auto bid. dlip will certainly miss MMA and WPI because of the character that both of those schools possess.

Actually LL only needs 1 more school to retain the AQ (min is 7). You have the 4 original UCAA schools (HOB, SLU, UC & RPI) plus UofR and IC to make 6. Hopefully Alfred or someone will take the plunge soon. Planning on Pool B access down the road would be a bad idea for the LL.

Pool B can be very dangerous, if you schedule weak or if the schedule doesn't appear to be as strong as predicted, you could be left home at 9-1 (see FSU 2014) and playing an ECAC game. If you do schedule tough you risk losing and not making it, you are basically in playoff mode the whole season not having that chance fall back on a conference slate. You can have a young team that doesn't click until later in the season and be left out. Playing in Pool B, you are left playing whoever would take you that week and may only get 8 or 9 games.

True, but I believe the NCAA has been more forgiving historically to conference champs getting pool B bids as opposed to 2nd place teams in pool A conferences (2014 Framingham) getting bids.

I am not overly worried about LL champs getting overlooked for pool B playoff spots.  I think the bigger issue would be if an 8-2/7-3 LL champ does not make it, and that scenario is probably more likely than a 9-1 champ or 2nd place team not making it.   All bias aside, Ithaca is probably able to beat any LL team in any given year, even when IC is down.  That makes the overall conference stronger, but also turns the league into more of a slugfest, which isn't always great when trying to figure out who the "elite" teams in the league are.

FSU went undefeated that year, we were still under our provisional period, thus the MASCAC teams were included in "Pool B", we did not stack well enough against other "Pool B" teams that year and our SOS was not as good (I blame you Endicott for losing your last 3 games that year, jk!). We lost to Rowan (playoff team) by 10 earlier in the year and they did not fair to well in their OOC losing to two other playoff teams that year. If they would have won more game, who knows. I can't remember the scenarios, but we were left out, just like many other teams with 1 loss looking standing on the outside.

[wally_wabash]

If Alfred were added to the LL , our football would be a tough conference, and we could have an E8/LL end of year bowl game for the second place teams .....Bartman would be happy....but AD's and President's need to approve for all sports....Pool B  would be a sad state for the league, probably need to be undefeated for a bid, certainly no more than one loss

Just to clarify, were the LL to be a Pool B conference, by the time it happens it would basically be just the LL, Maranatha and Finlandia.  Because that Pool B bid is available exclusively to that set of teams, it becomes a de facto AQ for the LL champion.  Doesn't matter if Oshkosh is 9-1 with a 1 point quad OT loss to Whitewater- they aren't eligible for that one bid.  So if your LL champion is 6-3 or whatever, they're getting that bid. 

But as Frank points out:

If one of the three independent teams disbands football or joins a conference (and no other independent replaces them), Pool B in 2019 will get zero bids.

The access ratio situation for Pool B is tenuous.  Barring a change from the NCAA on that calculus (maybe?), there may not be a bid set aside for independents and leagues with less than 7 teams before long.  And if/when that happens, then your 6-3 league champion goes into the same bucket as everybody else's runners up, which wouldn't be good for the LL's tournament access. 

[Jonny Utah]

The Liberty League is an excellent Division III football league consisting of some incredible academic and athletic institutions like, Hobart, RPI, Rochester, Merchant Marine Academy, WPI, and St. Lawrence. Springfield is also in the league (not trying to be a dick here but IDHO Springfield is simply not on the academic level of the other schools) but will be departing next year, with MMA and WPI for the newly formed NEWMAC league.

Ithaca College will be bringing their tradition of football and academic excellence to the league starting next season replacing Springfield, WPI, and MMA. The LL will be searching hard for another three members to make 8 teams and meet the NCAA's guidelines for an automatic bid to the NCAA tourney. dlip believes they have until 2019 to fill the three spots before being denied an auto bid. dlip will certainly miss MMA and WPI because of the character that both of those schools possess.

Actually LL only needs 1 more school to retain the AQ (min is 7). You have the 4 original UCAA schools (HOB, SLU, UC & RPI) plus UofR and IC to make 6. Hopefully Alfred or someone will take the plunge soon. Planning on Pool B access down the road would be a bad idea for the LL.

Pool B can be very dangerous, if you schedule weak or if the schedule doesn't appear to be as strong as predicted, you could be left home at 9-1 (see FSU 2014) and playing an ECAC game. If you do schedule tough you risk losing and not making it, you are basically in playoff mode the whole season not having that chance fall back on a conference slate. You can have a young team that doesn't click until later in the season and be left out. Playing in Pool B, you are left playing whoever would take you that week and may only get 8 or 9 games.

True, but I believe the NCAA has been more forgiving historically to conference champs getting pool B bids as opposed to 2nd place teams in pool A conferences (2014 Framingham) getting bids.

I am not overly worried about LL champs getting overlooked for pool B playoff spots.  I think the bigger issue would be if an 8-2/7-3 LL champ does not make it, and that scenario is probably more likely than a 9-1 champ or 2nd place team not making it.   All bias aside, Ithaca is probably able to beat any LL team in any given year, even when IC is down.  That makes the overall conference stronger, but also turns the league into more of a slugfest, which isn't always great when trying to figure out who the "elite" teams in the league are.

FSU went undefeated that year, we were still under our provisional period, thus the MASCAC teams were included in "Pool B", we did not stack well enough against other "Pool B" teams that year and our SOS was not as good (I blame you Endicott for losing your last 3 games that year, jk!). We lost to Rowan (playoff team) by 10 earlier in the year and they did not fair to well in their OOC losing to two other playoff teams that year. If they would have won more game, who knows. I can't remember the scenarios, but we were left out, just like many other teams with 1 loss looking standing on the outside.

Ok I see what you are saying, but I still feel that the LL has enough strength to get a pool B bid if a team went undefeated in conference, considering there is enough cross conference play with "power" conferences like the E8/NJAC/MAC.

[Jonny Utah]

If Alfred were added to the LL , our football would be a tough conference, and we could have an E8/LL end of year bowl game for the second place teams .....Bartman would be happy....but AD's and President's need to approve for all sports....Pool B  would be a sad state for the league, probably need to be undefeated for a bid, certainly no more than one loss

Just to clarify, were the LL to be a Pool B conference, by the time it happens it would basically be just the LL, Maranatha and Finlandia.  Because that Pool B bid is available exclusively to that set of teams, it becomes a de facto AQ for the LL champion.  Doesn't matter if Oshkosh is 9-1 with a 1 point quad OT loss to Whitewater- they aren't eligible for that one bid.  So if your LL champion is 6-3 or whatever, they're getting that bid. 

But as Frank points out:

If one of the three independent teams disbands football or joins a conference (and no other independent replaces them), Pool B in 2019 will get zero bids.

The access ratio situation for Pool B is tenuous.  Barring a change from the NCAA on that calculus (maybe?), there may not be a bid set aside for independents and leagues with less than 7 teams before long.  And if/when that happens, then your 6-3 league champion goes into the same bucket as everybody else's runners up, which wouldn't be good for the LL's tournament access.

The NCAA has adjusted pool C/B ratios before, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't do it again.  And I agree with the 6-3 champion, and that is really the only negative if the adjustment isn't made.

[Frank Rossi]

I'm sorry, but when did the NCAA "change" the ratios?  Pool B's ratio is directly related to the Pool A ratio (number of teams divided by number of bids).  This is consistent across sports.

[Jonny Utah]

I'm sorry, but when did the NCAA "change" the ratios?  Pool B's ratio is directly related to the Pool A ratio (number of teams divided by number of bids).  This is consistent across sports.

Sorry, I meant the actual number of pool B teams have changed, not the ratio/formula.  If the ratio falls to 0 bids (or rounded down to 0), then the NCAA dumps the pool B teams into pool C.  I don't see that as such a horrible outcome.

[Frank Rossi]

"Congratulations.  You're the only conference in America whose one-loss champ isn't guaranteed a bid, and whose two-loss champ won't win a bid.  This is a great thing."

- Jonny "Utes" Utah

[Jonny Utah]

"Congratulations.  You're the only conference in America whose one-loss champ isn't guaranteed a bid, and whose two-loss champ won't win a bid.  This is a great thing."

- Jonny "Utes" Utah

I never said it was great, but I'm not worried about it as everyone else seems to be.  And they most certainly can get 2 pool C bids.

"Everyone grab their panties, put them in a bunch, and run for the hills, the pool B bids are running out."

-Frank Rossi

[jknezek]

"Congratulations.  You're the only conference in America whose one-loss champ isn't guaranteed a bid, and whose two-loss champ won't win a bid.  This is a great thing."

- Jonny "Utes" Utah

I never said it was great, but I'm not worried about it as everyone else seems to be.  And they most certainly can get 2 pool C bids.

"Everyone grab their panties, put them in a bunch, and run for the hills, the pool B bids are running out."

-Frank Rossi

The AQ issue is irritating but if I was a LL AD it wouldn't be my foremost worry. My biggest concern would be finding OOC games to fill the schedule in all those weeks where every other conference has started play. I know that's what concerns us in the ODAC, though we will still sit at 7 teams following Catholic's final, dismal, run this year.