FB: Liberty League

[ITH radio]

Yeah, I thought the roster was close to 200, or basically 10% of the school's enrollment.

[Bartman]

D3Football.com AA Team announced for 2017...first time Liberty League was shut out from any spot on the team......recruit,recruit,recruit

So now that we are in the off season, let's talk recruiting.  I just ran some numbers:

National Powers:
Mt Union:  123 on roster, 51 from out of state (41%), 15 states represented
Mary Hardin Baylor: 172(!) on roster, 5 out of state (3%), 4 states represented

Best East teams:
Brockport: 85 on roster, 100% from NY
Del Vall: 142 on roster, 65 out of state (although 50 of these are NJ, 45%), 6 states

LL
Hobart: 106 roster, 59 out of state (56%), 10 states

My take away is that Mt Union can recruit the best athletes on a national level, not on par with FBS teams, but certainly can recruit with the majority of FCS teams.  MHB draws from a  talent rich, top 3 football producing state, those players that don't quite make the cut as high school seniors for UT, TCU, Baylor, A&M, Houston, SMU. Regional East Coast power teams (Wesley, Brockport, Del Val), need to catch lightining in a bottle, where everything lines up at the right time.   Occasionally a school like Johns Hopkins or Hobart can have the ability to pull players from out of the region and make an impact.   Didn't solve the mystery of life here, but obviously it will take a little more than good recruiting for the East to compete with the national powers.  On  a much more positive note, the inter-region fight for the top spots in the East is by far the most compelling and exciting in the country!!

Oline,
   +k for starting the conversation...as an additional data point , Oshkosh was entirely Wisconsin except for a few Illinois recruits. I think Brockport should get a lot of kudos for making it as far as they did with a 100% New York roster...Mount Union is in another recruiting level with the winning tradition , a few NFL players, plus one out of 5 male students are on the varsity or JV roster, it is practically the raison d'tre for the college. I think Hobart had some unbelievable results when they snagged Tyre Coleman and Ali Marpet, Brandon Shed and got Sweeney on transfer...these kind of players get you to the next level ....I hope the recruiting is going well for the East this year , we will need to reload for some great graduating Seniors

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Yeah, I thought the roster was close to 200, or basically 10% of the school's enrollment.

I believe the # is actually down some than in past years.  I remember hearing numbers in the low to mid 200s in the past.

Probably has to do with increased tuition $s and More DII schools in OH offering scholarships (Malone and Walsh used to be NAIA and new programs as Notre Dame College and Lake Erie College).

[Bombers798891]

I suspect—though I'd need to check my media guides—that the percentage of players Ithaca has recruited from out-of-state has increased since their heyday.

I'm also very interested to see Ithaca's incoming freshman class this year—Swanstrom's first full year of recruiting—and compare it to the 2016 freshman class—Welch's last. I wonder if we'll see more of an out of state influence, given Swanstrom's background.

[D3viewer]

D3Football.com AA Team announced for 2017...first time Liberty League was shut out from any spot on the team......recruit,recruit,recruit

So now that we are in the off season, let's talk recruiting.  I just ran some numbers:

National Powers:
Mt Union:  123 on roster, 51 from out of state (41%), 15 states represented
Mary Hardin Baylor: 172(!) on roster, 5 out of state (3%), 4 states represented

Best East teams:
Brockport: 85 on roster, 100% from NY
Del Vall: 142 on roster, 65 out of state (although 50 of these are NJ, 45%), 6 states

LL
Hobart: 106 roster, 59 out of state (56%), 10 states

My take away is that Mt Union can recruit the best athletes on a national level, not on par with FBS teams, but certainly can recruit with the majority of FCS teams.  MHB draws from a  talent rich, top 3 football producing state, those players that don't quite make the cut as high school seniors for UT, TCU, Baylor, A&M, Houston, SMU. Regional East Coast power teams (Wesley, Brockport, Del Val), need to catch lightining in a bottle, where everything lines up at the right time.   Occasionally a school like Johns Hopkins or Hobart can have the ability to pull players from out of the region and make an impact.   Didn't solve the mystery of life here, but obviously it will take a little more than good recruiting for the East to compete with the national powers.  On  a much more positive note, the inter-region fight for the top spots in the East is by far the most compelling and exciting in the country!!

Interesting to see Brockport which is the only state school on the list has a much smaller roster than the smaller private colleges. They must be filling beds as well for their respective universities.

[Bartman]

D3Football.com AA Team announced for 2017...first time Liberty League was shut out from any spot on the team......recruit,recruit,recruit

So now that we are in the off season, let's talk recruiting.  I just ran some numbers:

National Powers:
Mt Union:  123 on roster, 51 from out of state (41%), 15 states represented
Mary Hardin Baylor: 172(!) on roster, 5 out of state (3%), 4 states represented

Best East teams:
Brockport: 85 on roster, 100% from NY
Del Vall: 142 on roster, 65 out of state (although 50 of these are NJ, 45%), 6 states

LL
Hobart: 106 roster, 59 out of state (56%), 10 states

My take away is that Mt Union can recruit the best athletes on a national level, not on par with FBS teams, but certainly can recruit with the majority of FCS teams.  MHB draws from a  talent rich, top 3 football producing state, those players that don't quite make the cut as high school seniors for UT, TCU, Baylor, A&M, Houston, SMU. Regional East Coast power teams (Wesley, Brockport, Del Val), need to catch lightining in a bottle, where everything lines up at the right time.   Occasionally a school like Johns Hopkins or Hobart can have the ability to pull players from out of the region and make an impact.   Didn't solve the mystery of life here, but obviously it will take a little more than good recruiting for the East to compete with the national powers.  On  a much more positive note, the inter-region fight for the top spots in the East is by far the most compelling and exciting in the country!!

Interesting to see Brockport which is the only state school on the list has a much smaller roster than the smaller private colleges. They must be filling beds as well for their respective universities.

D3 viewer..... the private colleges love a big roster...tuition revenue(a few full payers doesn't hurt) for the school and practice for the student athlete with a sense of being part of a team is good for all...Brockport has enough players at 85, but after this year they may attract a few more

[UfanBill]

D3Football.com AA Team announced for 2017...first time Liberty League was shut out from any spot on the team......recruit,recruit,recruit

So now that we are in the off season, let's talk recruiting.  I just ran some numbers:

National Powers:
Mt Union:  123 on roster, 51 from out of state (41%), 15 states represented
Mary Hardin Baylor: 172(!) on roster, 5 out of state (3%), 4 states represented

Best East teams:
Brockport: 85 on roster, 100% from NY
Del Vall: 142 on roster, 65 out of state (although 50 of these are NJ, 45%), 6 states

LL
Hobart: 106 roster, 59 out of state (56%), 10 states

My take away is that Mt Union can recruit the best athletes on a national level, not on par with FBS teams, but certainly can recruit with the majority of FCS teams.  MHB draws from a  talent rich, top 3 football producing state, those players that don't quite make the cut as high school seniors for UT, TCU, Baylor, A&M, Houston, SMU. Regional East Coast power teams (Wesley, Brockport, Del Val), need to catch lightining in a bottle, where everything lines up at the right time.   Occasionally a school like Johns Hopkins or Hobart can have the ability to pull players from out of the region and make an impact.   Didn't solve the mystery of life here, but obviously it will take a little more than good recruiting for the East to compete with the national powers.  On  a much more positive note, the inter-region fight for the top spots in the East is by far the most compelling and exciting in the country!!

UMU also has a Freshman Roster:  http://athletics.mountunion.edu/sports/fball/2017-18/freshman-roster?sort=number

Subtract the FR that have #s listed (they also appear on the regular roster) there are another 56 Freshman listed.  38 of them are from outside of Ohio.

Total Numbers for UMU:
179 Total on the Roster
89 from Out of State
49% from Out of State

    Personally I don't get it. At the D3 level football players know they are student athletes, which correctly puts student first. When I graduated from high school I had a love for football and chose to go to a D3 school so I would have the opportunity to continue to play. If it was strictly for the academics I could have gone to a bigger school, maybe even an Ivy League school, but I was aware that I would have trouble cracking the lineup. I wasn't big enough or maybe good enough. At D3 I knew I could compete for meaningful playing time. When you love football you want to play. 
    Why would you want to go to UMHB or Mt. Union and be buried way down the depth chart? More than 100 players on a D3 roster is just ludicrous in my opinion.  There's NO WAY I would be satisfied being 5th string when I could go elsewhere and see the field.  What's the consensus? Maybe it's just me.

[Jonny Utah]

D3Football.com AA Team announced for 2017...first time Liberty League was shut out from any spot on the team......recruit,recruit,recruit

So now that we are in the off season, let's talk recruiting.  I just ran some numbers:

National Powers:
Mt Union:  123 on roster, 51 from out of state (41%), 15 states represented
Mary Hardin Baylor: 172(!) on roster, 5 out of state (3%), 4 states represented

Best East teams:
Brockport: 85 on roster, 100% from NY
Del Vall: 142 on roster, 65 out of state (although 50 of these are NJ, 45%), 6 states

LL
Hobart: 106 roster, 59 out of state (56%), 10 states

My take away is that Mt Union can recruit the best athletes on a national level, not on par with FBS teams, but certainly can recruit with the majority of FCS teams.  MHB draws from a  talent rich, top 3 football producing state, those players that don't quite make the cut as high school seniors for UT, TCU, Baylor, A&M, Houston, SMU. Regional East Coast power teams (Wesley, Brockport, Del Val), need to catch lightining in a bottle, where everything lines up at the right time.   Occasionally a school like Johns Hopkins or Hobart can have the ability to pull players from out of the region and make an impact.   Didn't solve the mystery of life here, but obviously it will take a little more than good recruiting for the East to compete with the national powers.  On  a much more positive note, the inter-region fight for the top spots in the East is by far the most compelling and exciting in the country!!

UMU also has a Freshman Roster:  http://athletics.mountunion.edu/sports/fball/2017-18/freshman-roster?sort=number

Subtract the FR that have #s listed (they also appear on the regular roster) there are another 56 Freshman listed.  38 of them are from outside of Ohio.

Total Numbers for UMU:
179 Total on the Roster
89 from Out of State
49% from Out of State

    Personally I don't get it. At the D3 level football players know they are student athletes, which correctly puts student first. When I graduated from high school I had a love for football and chose to go to a D3 school so I would have the opportunity to continue to play. If it was strictly for the academics I could have gone to a bigger school, maybe even an Ivy League school, but I was aware that I would have trouble cracking the lineup. I wasn't big enough or maybe good enough. At D3 I knew I could compete for meaningful playing time. When you love football you want to play. 
    Why would you want to go to UMHB or Mt. Union and be buried way down the depth chart? More than 100 players on a D3 roster is just ludicrous in my opinion.  There's NO WAY I would be satisfied being 5th string when I could go elsewhere and see the field.  What's the consensus? Maybe it's just me.

I think a lot of kids think that they will play for Mt. Union though and want the challenge of fighting for a starting spot.  Nothing wrong with that.

[Oline89]

    Personally I don't get it. At the D3 level football players know they are student athletes, which correctly puts student first. When I graduated from high school I had a love for football and chose to go to a D3 school so I would have the opportunity to continue to play. If it was strictly for the academics I could have gone to a bigger school, maybe even an Ivy League school, but I was aware that I would have trouble cracking the lineup. I wasn't big enough or maybe good enough. At D3 I knew I could compete for meaningful playing time. When you love football you want to play. 
    Why would you want to go to UMHB or Mt. Union and be buried way down the depth chart? More than 100 players on a D3 roster is just ludicrous in my opinion.  There's NO WAY I would be satisfied being 5th string when I could go elsewhere and see the field.  What's the consensus? Maybe it's just me.
[/quote]

UFB,
You nailed it!  More than 100 players on a roster is way more than is necessary.  Football is a grind, practices are hard, off-season training is painful.  To expend the  blood, sweat, and tears  necessary to become a collegiate football player and never have a glimmer of hope of getting on the field is cruel.  That being said, D3 football has become every bit as competitive today as I-AA football was 30 years ago when I played.  There is no guarantee for playing time, just because you "settled" for D3..

[MRMIKESMITH]

    Personally I don't get it. At the D3 level football players know they are student athletes, which correctly puts student first. When I graduated from high school I had a love for football and chose to go to a D3 school so I would have the opportunity to continue to play. If it was strictly for the academics I could have gone to a bigger school, maybe even an Ivy League school, but I was aware that I would have trouble cracking the lineup. I wasn't big enough or maybe good enough. At D3 I knew I could compete for meaningful playing time. When you love football you want to play. 
    Why would you want to go to UMHB or Mt. Union and be buried way down the depth chart? More than 100 players on a D3 roster is just ludicrous in my opinion.  There's NO WAY I would be satisfied being 5th string when I could go elsewhere and see the field.  What's the consensus? Maybe it's just me.

UFB,
You nailed it!  More than 100 players on a roster is way more than is necessary.  Football is a grind, practices are hard, off-season training is painful.  To expend the  blood, sweat, and tears  necessary to become a collegiate football player and never have a glimmer of hope of getting on the field is cruel.  That being said, D3 football has become every bit as competitive today as I-AA football was 30 years ago when I played.  There is no guarantee for playing time, just because you "settled" for D3..
[/quote]

For some schools, it is a money grab. However, the more players you have, the better chance of finding a really good player. That's why many coaches go to the larger States (California, Texas, and Florida) to recruit. The pool is larger and you have a higher chance on getting a talented player. Now regarding selecting D III, for me it was both academics, playing time, and being valued. I had opportunities to be a preferred walk-on at some FCS schools and the DII schools didn't have the academic qualities for my degree of choice, but the coaches at the DIII institutions called me almost everyday. I decided that I wanted to go to a good school where I would be valued and coaches showed a vested interest, and I could get a great education in my field of choice.

[Machiavelli]

This is a weird conversation. If someone is good at football, they don't go into it thinking 'I can't wait to play college football, even if i'm 5th string!'. They think they are good enough to be on the field right away. In d3 though, there are a lot of players just happy to be on the team. I would say even upwards of 50% who are just happy to be there. 100 people on a football roster is not overkill. You need 44 for 2 strings on offense and defense, add another 6 or so for special teams and right there, half (or more) of the kids on the team are needed right now.

You're probably looking at about 40% freshman, some who will play right away, some who won't and who will wait a few years to get on the field or compete for 4 years trying to get on the field, some who are just happy to be there and could care less if they play, and some who either think they are better than they are and quit or transfer. So with those numbers and a 100 player roster, 60 are upperclassmen, about 40 who can play, and 25% of the freshman(10), and there's your 50 legit players, and the back half can play JV or be awesome at scout team or be great at cheering the team on and keeping the overall GPA above the national average. Truth be told, that back half probably is happy right where they are and didn't expect much otherwise.

[Oline89]

This is a weird conversation. If someone is good at football, they don't go into it thinking 'I can't wait to play college football, even if i'm 5th string!'. They think they are good enough to be on the field right away. In d3 though, there are a lot of players just happy to be on the team. I would say even upwards of 50% who are just happy to be there. 100 people on a football roster is not overkill. You need 44 for 2 strings on offense and defense, add another 6 or so for special teams and right there, half (or more) of the kids on the team are needed right now.

You're probably looking at about 40% freshman, some who will play right away, some who won't and who will wait a few years to get on the field or compete for 4 years trying to get on the field, some who are just happy to be there and could care less if they play, and some who either think they are better than they are and quit or transfer. So with those numbers and a 100 player roster, 60 are upperclassmen, about 40 who can play, and 25% of the freshman(10), and there's your 50 legit players, and the back half can play JV or be awesome at scout team or be great at cheering the team on and keeping the overall GPA above the national average. Truth be told, that back half probably is happy right where they are and didn't expect much otherwise.

I am going to agree with some of your thoughts, but not all.  100 players is pushing the envelope, but acceptable.  40 Freshman is also a good number   At the upper echelon schools (lets say the top 75 of the 230 schools) 90% of those kids were one of the best players on their high school team, all state, all county, etc.  I would estimate that of the original 40, most coaches expect 16-25 to stick around until senior year.  Of those seniors, there may be 1-2 who don't contribute on the field.  I disagree that any player at the collegiate level is "happy" cheering and not getting on the field, those guys are gone by the end of freshman year, and hanging out in the stands, or on the floors of the frat house....

[skunks_sidekick]

For what it's worth Mount has more than a few of those hanging around guys especially if they want to get into coaching.  The Mount coaching tree keeps growing and growing, so a kid that graduates from Mount who says he was on the team for four years has that as a resume bump when out looking for a coaching gig.

[Bombers798891]

  I disagree that any player at the collegiate level is "happy" cheering and not getting on the field, those guys are gone by the end of freshman year, and hanging out in the stands, or on the floors of the frat house....

I think "happy" is kind of a difficult word there. Certainly, there are seniors who stay for four seasons and rarely see the field. I'm sure they're not "happy" about not getting on the field, but they're not discouraged enough to leave the team. We can all find guys on our team's roster who fit that description.

But I also want to agree with a point machiavelli raised. Even if they *haven't* seen the field, most of these kids probably believe that, if they did, they'd do well. That's how they got to this point; confidence in their abilities. And you never know when you're going to get that shot.

Case in point, Ithaca's former QB Rob Zappia.

2007: Mostly on JV, but dressed as third string on varsity, never played however
2008: 3rd string varsity, never played
2009: Backup QB. Played in three games, threw four passes, completed two.

Now, heading into the 2010 season, IC was graduating its QB. The local beat writer for the Ithaca Journal told me they were most likely going to turn to a sophomore, Jason Hendel, who was a pretty highly regarded recruit. Well, Zappia wound up beating him out, and put up the following numbers as a senior:

209-for-364, 2,507 yards, 19 TD, 8 INT. That yardage total was the 3rd highest regular season total in school history. He did this despite having the team's running backs combine for 708 yards, 3.2 YPC, and 6 TDs.

So every time I hear people talk about teams having "overloaded" rosters full of kids who will never contribute, I think of Zappia.

[Jonny Utah]

  I disagree that any player at the collegiate level is "happy" cheering and not getting on the field, those guys are gone by the end of freshman year, and hanging out in the stands, or on the floors of the frat house....

I think "happy" is kind of a difficult word there. Certainly, there are seniors who stay for four seasons and rarely see the field. I'm sure they're not "happy" about not getting on the field, but they're not discouraged enough to leave the team. We can all find guys on our team's roster who fit that description.

But I also want to agree with a point machiavelli raised. Even if they *haven't* seen the field, most of these kids probably believe that, if they did, they'd do well. That's how they got to this point; confidence in their abilities. And you never know when you're going to get that shot.

Case in point, Ithaca's former QB Rob Zappia.

2007: Mostly on JV, but dressed as third string on varsity, never played however
2008: 3rd string varsity, never played
2009: Backup QB. Played in three games, threw four passes, completed two.

Now, heading into the 2010 season, IC was graduating its QB. The local beat writer for the Ithaca Journal told me they were most likely going to turn to a sophomore, Jason Hendel, who was a pretty highly regarded recruit. Well, Zappia wound up beating him out, and put up the following numbers as a senior:

209-for-364, 2,507 yards, 19 TD, 8 INT. That yardage total was the 3rd highest regular season total in school history. He did this despite having the team's running backs combine for 708 yards, 3.2 YPC, and 6 TDs.

So every time I hear people talk about teams having "overloaded" rosters full of kids who will never contribute, I think of Zappia.

There has also been a change in how football teams/colleges have operated within the last 20 years as well.  More teams now have "no cut" policies and basically let you be on the football team if you want to play football (I believe they do this for money reasons).  When I went to Ithaca in the mid 1990's, the roster was about 80 or so.  38 of the 40 freshman played JV (not included in the 80 varsity roster limit), and the summer before your sophomore year, the coaching staff would decide if you were "invited" to the varsity team the next year.  I'm guessing 25 out of the 40 got asked back.  The 15 or so who got "cut" were able to play JV again if they wanted to and that in fact did happen.  In addition to those 15 frosh "cuts" there might be 2-3 juniors or sophs who also didn't get asked back for various reasons.  Those were the tough ones.  I don't think that is how Ithaca operates today or if that was just the way it was back then.

Quarterbacks are kind of in a different category as well.  Many of these guys can only play one position and it is rare that a 3rd or 4th stringer gets any action where a 3rd or 4th string position player may get some special teams time or other garbage time.