FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

It's certainly great, in dlip's opinion to have a JV program that the overall football program and school is committed to. It gets guys playing time and allows for some real gamers to shine and show they are ready to move up...or that they have the potential to move up. However with that said Union still had it's JV program running while the varsity was in a free fall for whatever that is worth.

Having a strong JV schedule is really important to keep the Frosh and Sophs going.  Hard to be the look squad for the varsity for 16 weeks straight, its always nice to bonk noggins with another colored helmet once in a while!!

That's certainly one way to do it. The other way is to only recruit what you need. For example, W&L had 85 in camp, 25 first years. Last year they had 19 first years and this season there were 18 sophomores. W&L's retention of football players coming back to play from first year to senior year hovers between 65 and 85 percent. So if you recruit only what you need, they see time, they aren't buried 8 deep, and they stick around. If you insist on having 50 or 60 first years, and you want more than the 10 or so to come back that are good enough to see some time in first year, shelling out for a jv team makes sense.

It's just different strategies based on what the school needs. For these schools that need first years to fill beds and put quotas on coaches... well, you need to spend a bit to keep them motivated once they arrive or they all quit and a significant number of them transfer or just drop out. It's less than you gain from the extra tuition, so it probably works out. For schools that don't need to do this? You don't need the expense of a jv team, but you can fill your school without all those "extra" players anyway.

Lots of ways higher education works. Sometimes it is to the benefit of the students, most of the time it is designed to benefit the school.

Washington and Lee is also in a different category than most schools.  Let's say your average d3 school gets 5-10 guys some help with admissions and financial aid, the other 50-100 need to get into and pay for school on their own.  Probably just statistically your above average student who plays football isn't even getting into W&L and might not be that good at football to begin with.

[fisheralum91]

Its funny- I have never given much thought to it but when a college has a jv football team- is it a true feeder of talent or just a place to put the kids who didnt quite live up to expectations.
Its a win for admissions and the Dean of students in terms of admission and retention but how often is it a feeder system to the varsity program?
Im asking this honestly as I have no idea.

[jknezek]

Washington and Lee is also in a different category than most schools.  Let's say your average d3 school gets 5-10 guys some help with admissions and financial aid, the other 50-100 need to get into and pay for school on their own.  Probably just statistically your above average student who plays football isn't even getting into W&L and might not be that good at football to begin with.

That's true. As I said, different strategies for different schools. But, being DIII schools are non-profit institutions whose goal is providing higher education, it irritates me when they do things like bring in 100 first year football players to fill beds. Or tell coaches they must bring in a certain number above and beyond what is needed. It should be about the best experience for the students, not the best financial result for the schools. That's the point of being a non-profit and why non-profits are subsidized the way they are.

Colleges have been playing these games for a long time, and I don't think it will change. But when you really think about what some of these schools are doing, it's quite pathetic. Now that's not all schools that pull huge first year classes, just the ones that go out of their way to recruit kids who stand no chance of seeing the field. UMU pulls a huge number of first years, but I think a significant number of those are players who think, just because it is DIII, they will play and so they might as well play at UMU. I don't think they are all actually recruited, they are drawn by the rep. It benefits UMU, but it's not UMU's doing. Other schools, like Methodist in NC with their 165 players in camp, aren't getting it by rep. They are out recruiting this massive number simply because they need to fill beds. That should annoy just about everyone who cares about what the real mission statement of a college should be.

[jknezek]

Its funny- I have never given much thought to it but when a college has a jv football team- is it a true feeder of talent or just a place to put the kids who didnt quite live up to expectations.
Its a win for admissions and the Dean of students in terms of admission and retention but how often is it a feeder system to the varsity program?
Im asking this honestly as I have no idea.

I think it is a feeder system, and at least it shows a college is willing to spend some money on that multitude of kids that aren't making the varsity yet. So I think, if you are going to recruit a ridiculous number of kids, at least you are trying to do something and spending some money to make it worth their while as well as your own.

[Jonny Utah]

It's certainly great, in dlip's opinion to have a JV program that the overall football program and school is committed to. It gets guys playing time and allows for some real gamers to shine and show they are ready to move up...or that they have the potential to move up. However with that said Union still had it's JV program running while the varsity was in a free fall for whatever that is worth.

Having a strong JV schedule is really important to keep the Frosh and Sophs going.  Hard to be the look squad for the varsity for 16 weeks straight, its always nice to bonk noggins with another colored helmet once in a while!!

That's certainly one way to do it. The other way is to only recruit what you need. For example, W&L had 85 in camp, 25 first years. Last year they had 19 first years and this season there were 18 sophomores. W&L's retention of football players coming back to play from first year to senior year hovers between 65 and 85 percent. So if you recruit only what you need, they see time, they aren't buried 8 deep, and they stick around. If you insist on having 50 or 60 first years, and you want more than the 10 or so to come back that are good enough to see some time in first year, shelling out for a jv team makes sense.

It's just different strategies based on what the school needs. For these schools that need first years to fill beds and put quotas on coaches... well, you need to spend a bit to keep them motivated once they arrive or they all quit and a significant number of them transfer or just drop out. It's less than you gain from the extra tuition, so it probably works out. For schools that don't need to do this? You don't need the expense of a jv team, but you can fill your school without all those "extra" players anyway.

Lots of ways higher education works. Sometimes it is to the benefit of the students, most of the time it is designed to benefit the school.

Washington and Lee is also in a different category than most schools.  Let's say your average d3 school gets 5-10 guys some help with admissions and financial aid, the other 50-100 need to get into and pay for school on their own.  Probably just statistically your above average student who plays football isn't even getting into W&L and might not be that good at football to begin with.

That being said if you have the coaches (and JV schedule) you can run 3-4 strings as a total team.  That gives the young guys experience with the techniques and ins/outs of the system. 

When I played at IC in the 1990s, there were about 80 varsity guys (which only included 3 frosh) and a JV team with 50 incomming frosh with a JV schedule. 

The JV had a head coach and a few GAs.  The JV would run a regular practice, and then run the scout teams for the varsity when they were doing team.  5-6 games and then at the end of the season a few guys might stay on and help out the varsity during practice.  This also gave the varsity coaches a chance to evaluate the frosh and ask back 20-30 of the kids for the next year.  The ones that got "cut" did have a chance to play JV again as a sophmore but that was rare (about 3-4 who may have been injured or really thought they could make the team again).

I guess you really need the coaching staff to run a JV program and the players to go with it. 

[Jonny Utah]

Washington and Lee is also in a different category than most schools.  Let's say your average d3 school gets 5-10 guys some help with admissions and financial aid, the other 50-100 need to get into and pay for school on their own.  Probably just statistically your above average student who plays football isn't even getting into W&L and might not be that good at football to begin with.

That's true. As I said, different strategies for different schools. But, being DIII schools are non-profit institutions whose goal is providing higher education, it irritates me when they do things like bring in 100 first year football players to fill beds. Or tell coaches they must bring in a certain number above and beyond what is needed. It should be about the best experience for the students, not the best financial result for the schools. That's the point of being a non-profit and why non-profits are subsidized the way they are.

Colleges have been playing these games for a long time, and I don't think it will change. But when you really think about what some of these schools are doing, it's quite pathetic. Now that's not all schools that pull huge first year classes, just the ones that go out of their way to recruit kids who stand no chance of seeing the field. UMU pulls a huge number of first years, but I think a significant number of those are players who think, just because it is DIII, they will play and so they might as well play at UMU. I don't think they are all actually recruited, they are drawn by the rep. It benefits UMU, but it's not UMU's doing. Other schools, like Methodist in NC with their 165 players in camp, aren't getting it by rep. They are out recruiting this massive number simply because they need to fill beds. That should annoy just about everyone who cares about what the real mission statement of a college should be.

I think it depends on how you sell it.  And it isn't like the football coach at MUC or Alfred is telling admissions "hey guys, I have 250 kids applying who are playing football, look out and make some room for us".  I'm guessing the admission office teams the majority of football players just like average students.  They probably don't even know if the majority of them are going to play football or be in the band or sing in the glee club or want to be on the student government.  If the coach is honest with the kids it shouldn't be a problem.  And I think many coaches at this level never know what they are going to get.  I'm sure we all have stories of the kid on our d3 team who turned down a 1-aa chance or a division 1 chance to walk on but decided to play d3.  Often times those kids aren't even that good. 

[jknezek]

Washington and Lee is also in a different category than most schools.  Let's say your average d3 school gets 5-10 guys some help with admissions and financial aid, the other 50-100 need to get into and pay for school on their own.  Probably just statistically your above average student who plays football isn't even getting into W&L and might not be that good at football to begin with.

That's true. As I said, different strategies for different schools. But, being DIII schools are non-profit institutions whose goal is providing higher education, it irritates me when they do things like bring in 100 first year football players to fill beds. Or tell coaches they must bring in a certain number above and beyond what is needed. It should be about the best experience for the students, not the best financial result for the schools. That's the point of being a non-profit and why non-profits are subsidized the way they are.

Colleges have been playing these games for a long time, and I don't think it will change. But when you really think about what some of these schools are doing, it's quite pathetic. Now that's not all schools that pull huge first year classes, just the ones that go out of their way to recruit kids who stand no chance of seeing the field. UMU pulls a huge number of first years, but I think a significant number of those are players who think, just because it is DIII, they will play and so they might as well play at UMU. I don't think they are all actually recruited, they are drawn by the rep. It benefits UMU, but it's not UMU's doing. Other schools, like Methodist in NC with their 165 players in camp, aren't getting it by rep. They are out recruiting this massive number simply because they need to fill beds. That should annoy just about everyone who cares about what the real mission statement of a college should be.

I think it depends on how you sell it.  And it isn't like the football coach at MUC or Alfred is telling admissions "hey guys, I have 250 kids applying who are playing football, look out and make some room for us".  I'm guessing the admission office teams the majority of football players just like average students.  They probably don't even know if the majority of them are going to play football or be in the band or sing in the glee club or want to be on the student government.  If the coach is honest with the kids it shouldn't be a problem.  And I think many coaches at this level never know what they are going to get.  I'm sure we all have stories of the kid on our d3 team who turned down a 1-aa chance or a division 1 chance to walk on but decided to play d3.  Often times those kids aren't even that good.

The bolded sentence is where I think it gets squirrelly when you are trying to recruit 80+ first years to show up. But sure, I absolutely agree with you. Then again, I think some of the schools that are doing this are fog a check type places, so the coaching staff doesn't have to ask to make room. The admissions office is banging down his door to build a statue for him if he pulls 250 kids and they are banging on his door to throw him out if he only pulls 50.

[dlippiel]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

[Jonny Utah]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

Ha +K.  Love the Wee Packet.  Very underrated for dinner too.  Great patio out back.

[Machiavelli]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

Ha +K.  Love the Wee Packet.  Very underrated for dinner too.  Great patio out back.

Hey, maybe when you guys get older you can get an apartment together...

[dlippiel]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

Ha +K.  Love the Wee Packet.  Very underrated for dinner too.  Great patio out back.

Hey, maybe when you guys get older you can get an apartment together...

Not without you Mach

[Machiavelli]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

Ha +K.  Love the Wee Packet.  Very underrated for dinner too.  Great patio out back.

Hey, maybe when you guys get older you can get an apartment together...

Not without you Mach

Me and Utah already live together. Once a Union guy is brought into the mix, i'm out. Utah cooks a fantastic Chicken Parm. Enjoy.

[dlippiel]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

Ha +K.  Love the Wee Packet.  Very underrated for dinner too.  Great patio out back.

Hey, maybe when you guys get older you can get an apartment together...

Not without you Mach

Me and Utah already live together. Once a Union guy is brought into the mix, i'm out. Utah cooks a fantastic Chicken Parm. Enjoy.

A love triangle sets the stage for a very interesting Shoes game this year Mach. +k...even to a mother****ing Engineer. His chix parm is that good huh? dlip ****ing new it!

[Jonny Utah]

This one is for Utah.

dlip and his family are at the Wee Packet in Dennisport, Massachusetts (Cape Cod) ready to eat some dinner. The waitress approaches and the initial conversation goes like this:

[b]Very nice Waitress:[/b] Good evening folks may I get you something to drink?

dlip: Jonny ****ing Utah was here recently.

Waitress: Excuse me?

dlip: I'll have a water with lemon please (Mrs. dlip kicks dlip in the shin).

Waitress: Did you just...?

dlip: My wife will have a pepsi and my daughters will have apple juice, thank you.

Waitress stands silent for a moment, smiles, shakes her head, and then walks away.

In honor of the great D3 boards poster Jonny Utah

Ha +K.  Love the Wee Packet.  Very underrated for dinner too.  Great patio out back.

Hey, maybe when you guys get older you can get an apartment together...

Not without you Mach

Me and Utah already live together. Once a Union guy is brought into the mix, i'm out. Utah cooks a fantastic Chicken Parm. Enjoy.

A love triangle sets the stage for a very interesting Shoes game this year Mach. +k...even to a mother****ing Engineer. His chix parm is that good huh? dlip ****ing new it!

The first rule of Wee Packet is:  You do not talk about Wee Packet.

Second rule?  DO NOT TALK ABOUT WEE PACKET.

Third rule:  Everyone loves the Wee Packet.  Whatever happens at that Wee Packet, stays at the Wee Packet.

[UfanBill]

Wow...just WOW  ...it seems you boys need another distraction...like FOOTBALL...Scrimmage week...who's scrimmaging whom? I know the Union Dutchman are scrimmaging at Utica on Friday 4:00 pm. That should be a good indicator for both teams.

LET'S GO U !!!