FB: Liberty League

[Ice Bear]

LL Power Rankings

1. Ithaca - Sure? I don't know. Playing Hopkins on the road has to count for something, when none of the other contenders played a good team. Been over the positives and negatives, this is just kind of a gut call

2. RPI - As I stated earlier, I really need to know what to make of Dickinson's last three drives. If they're just a case of the Engineers being bored, they'd be my #1

3. Hobart - I feel slightly more underwhelmed by their win than I do RPI's.

4. Rochester - I think the other thing that I'm not sure about is...last year was the first time Utica had ever won more than 7 games. I want to see if they can repeat this before giving full credit for beating a playoff participant. Considering they went from 49 points in the D3 poll to 10, I think I'm not the only one harboring this skepticism

5. St. Lawrence - It feels like the 2013 - 2016 Saints were forever ago

6. Buff State - Tough to watch

Unranked - Union. Sorry, Charger fans. I simply cannot rank teams when the only data point for the year is an opponent like Hilbert. I've never seen a game where *both* teams kneeled it out. You may stay here next week too.

[/b]

Ice has no problem with this. Ice says maybe this is a snarky shot from a passionate IC guy but all in all...the passionate IC guy has a point about not being able to tell much regarding Union's place in the big four with the first two teams on the schedule. Ice says it's a bit ****ing dramatic as obviously you could place them above Roch.

[IC798891]

You didn't really think GARNET fans were going to let this pass unchallenged did you? While personally I'd like to see Union play a stiffer opponent week#1(and #2) I fully understand why they do so and it's what's helped rebuild the program under previous HC Jeff Behrman.

Yes. When Union was rebuilding, games like this made sense. They're not rebuilding their program anymore. They're a team that has playoff aspirations, they're playing a glorified scrimmage, and you wonder why I don't think it tells me anything about how good they are?

I went through the same thing on the E8 board when talking about Cortland and their propensity to blow teams out of the water. There's only so much you can learn about a team when they're up 42-0 in the second quarter against some physically overmatched team. It's how you play against teams that can punch back, make plays, and challenge you that provide worthwhile information.

You're right about Union "kneeling it out." With nearly 3 minutes left on the clock Union achieved a first and goal at the Hilbert 1 yard line and took 4 straight knees because that's what classy teams do. Hilbert then reciprocated because they were down 65-0 on their own 5. You got a problem with THAT?

If you re-read my post, I never said, or even implied, I had a problem with it. I said I'd never seen it. Maybe read the post, before getting indignant?

BTW...Hilbert is joining the E8 next year

If you re-read one of my previous posts, you'll see that I'm well aware of that fact. Again, maybe try to read what people write and absorb the information before getting indignant about it?

But since reading comprehension doesn't seem to be high on your list of priorities, I'll help you (and apparently IB) out here: Unranked doesn't mean bad. As I clearly explained, it simply means that there's nothing to learn about a team that's playing a game like this. Just like how last year's 76-7 win over Worchester, when Union also emptied its bench, proved completely meaningless when it came to telling us Union would finish 6-4, and in 4th place in the conference

[unionpalooza]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games, didn't pair up quickly, and had no other options.  I suspect Behrman was out the door and the AD was more focused on building a hockey rink.

On the league after week 1, I wonder a little bit if the league isn't just down this year.  We don't know about Union yet, but it seems pretty unlikely that we have a 10-0 beast amongst the rest.  I think this might be one of these years where we see an 8-2 champ who doesn't make it out of the NCAA first round.

Finally, a question for the group - can anyone think of a better D3 league (other than the WIAC) in terms of the combination of parity and quality of play at the top?  There are other leagues with 1-2 consistently great teams, and other leagues where 4-5 teams are legit title contenders each year, but not a lot where you have a real number of schools that fight for the title, and then consistently win a game or two in the NCAAs.  Maybe the PAC?  (With all that said, I'm sure Pat can rattle off five other conferences like that.)

[Pat Coleman]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games, didn't pair up quickly, and had no other options.  I suspect Behrman was out the door and the AD was more focused on building a hockey rink.

On the league after week 1, I wonder a little bit if the league isn't just down this year.  We don't know about Union yet, but it seems pretty unlikely that we have a 10-0 beast amongst the rest.  I think this might be one of these years where we see an 8-2 champ who doesn't make it out of the NCAA first round.

Finally, a question for the group - can anyone think of a better D3 league (other than the WIAC) in terms of the combination of parity and quality of play at the top?  There are other leagues with 1-2 consistently great teams, and other leagues where 4-5 teams are legit title contenders each year, but not a lot where you have a real number of schools that fight for the title, and then consistently win a game or two in the NCAAs.  Maybe the PAC?  (With all that said, I'm sure Pat can rattle off five other conferences like that.)

The PAC is not a bad choice for this spot, either. The LL since adding Ithaca has definitely had four teams at the top with a bunch of parity. I think the top of the PAC is comparable, and of course the WIAC. The MIAC when it had St. Thomas would probably qualify -- Gustavus Adolphus was a really good team relegated to fourth place. I'd say the OAC has been like that with Mount Union, John Carroll, Baldwin Wallace, Heidelberg. And maybe the CCIW with North Central, Wheaton, Wash U, but probably not a fourth.

[IC798891]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

[unionpalooza]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

Listen man, I like you and your posts are often thoughtful, but take a deep breath - you don't need to perform biblical exegesis on every post you see here.  I'm not even replying to you; I've agreed with you all along that the game tells us nothing.  My only point is that this was not a deliberate scheduling strategy, as some had speculated. It was Hilbert or nothing. Union took Hilbert. So yeah, no one out a gun to their head. But it's not like they're sitting back saying "well, it sure would be nice to put on pads and play a game that first week, but it's only Hilbert, and we'd hate to leave the guys on D3boards at a loss to rank us after week one, so I guess we'll just stay home."

[Bartman]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

Listen man, I like you and your posts are often thoughtful, but take a deep breath - you don't need to perform biblical exegesis on every post you see here.  I'm not even replying to you; I've agreed with you all along that the game tells us nothing.  My only point is that this was not a deliberate scheduling strategy, as some had speculated. It was Hilbert or nothing. Union took Hilbert. So yeah, no one out a gun to their head. But it's not like they're sitting back saying "well, it sure would be nice to put on pads and play a game that first week, but it's only Hilbert, and we'd hate to leave the guys on D3boards at a loss to rank us after week one, so I guess we'll just stay home."

This made me laugh......now, should I be embarrassed  I ranked Union?......well, sort of, well no ....not really.....hmm , actually, after thinking about it,  I change my vote to Union #1 for having the balls to play and crush Hilbert knowing they'd get s*** from a somewhat overly analytical Ithaca supporter. 

[Oline89]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

I have to jump in here as well.  IC has the unique postion in the LL that they are guaranteed a game every year against Cortland.  They only have to hunt down 3 other OOC games.  If you think that scheduling OOC is easy, then research a little more.  Conferences have aligned with each other, the LL was left out.  I commend every AC and HC who busted ass to find a 10th game.  If you really think that a 10th game isn't important to the players, parents, coaches and fans, then you have been off the gridiron too long. 

[Ice Bear]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

Ice Bear likes IC as well and also, more often than not, finds his posts insightful. Ice says however, stop being ****ing douchey and settle down. Ice says this is a bit too much dude.

[Jonny Utah]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

I have to jump in here as well.  IC has the unique postion in the LL that they are guaranteed a game every year against Cortland.  They only have to hunt down 3 other OOC games.  If you think that scheduling OOC is easy, then research a little more.  Conferences have aligned with each other, the LL was left out.  I commend every AC and HC who busted ass to find a 10th game.  If you really think that a 10th game isn't important to the players, parents, coaches and fans, then you have been off the gridiron too long.

Yea but Ithaca has NEVER had a problem hunting down other OCC games.  Union shouldn't have a problem finding four, especially seeing Springfield is a team they have played pretty much every year for the past 25 years.  I don't really care that they played Hilbert, maybe they wanted to help out a upstate team trying to fill out a schedule, while getting some work in at the same time.  But I don't believe for one second that a team like Hobart (or RPI/Hobart) can't find 4 OCC games if they plan accordingly. 

[IC798891]

Ice Bear likes IC as well and also, more often than not, finds his posts insightful. Ice says however, stop being ****ing douchey and settle down. Ice says this is a bit too much dude.

You can disagree with rankings (as I did with Bartman's) without calling me dramatic (like you did) or accusing falsely accusing me of having a "problem" with the game ending with six kneel-downs (like Bill did.)

Or, you know, you guys are free to put out your own polls/power rankings. You want Union above Rochester? Put them there.

[unionpalooza]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

I have to jump in here as well.  IC has the unique postion in the LL that they are guaranteed a game every year against Cortland.  They only have to hunt down 3 other OOC games.  If you think that scheduling OOC is easy, then research a little more.  Conferences have aligned with each other, the LL was left out.  I commend every AC and HC who busted ass to find a 10th game.  If you really think that a 10th game isn't important to the players, parents, coaches and fans, then you have been off the gridiron too long.

Yea but Ithaca has NEVER had a problem hunting down other OCC games.  Union shouldn't have a problem finding four, especially seeing Springfield is a team they have played pretty much every year for the past 25 years.  I don't really care that they played Hilbert, maybe they wanted to help out a upstate team trying to fill out a schedule, while getting some work in at the same time.  But I don't believe for one second that a team like Hobart (or RPI/Hobart) can't find 4 OCC games if they plan accordingly.

Yep, getting good OOC games is hard work, but it's also doable.  As I said a few posts backs, I think Union ended up with Hilbert because of incompetence, not scheduling philosophy.  I'm not sure if it was Behrman's departure or distraction at the AD level, but they were not on the ball.  (Same thing happened in 2022, when they had trouble and had to travel to Alleghany on week 1 for a one-and-done.)  But I'm also confident that Coach Poppe has a very clear vision for who he wants to play and the requisite energy and discipline it takes to see that vision achieved.  Dude just seems to do every single thing with the volume turned to 11.   

[IC798891]

I have to jump in here as well.  IC has the unique postion in the LL that they are guaranteed a game every year against Cortland.  They only have to hunt down 3 other OOC games.  If you think that scheduling OOC is easy, then research a little more.

If you really think that a 10th game isn't important to the players, parents, coaches and fans, then you have been off the gridiron too long.

1. I don't think it's easy to schedule OOC games, and never said it was.

2. I don't think a 10th game isn't important to any of the constituents you listed, and never said it was I simply said that programs don't need them, as evidenced by the many, many, many programs (Union included) who don't always play them.

Seriously, it's one thing to call me over-analytical (because, well, I am), but you know why I type out long, detailed posts? Because I want to make sure people can understand my point of view.

So it'd be awesome if the people on this board would stop pretending I said things I didn't and actually respond to what I am saying. There's a quote function and if I try to modify a post, the board lets you know. If you want to disagree with me, that's what the boards are for. You don't need to pretend I'm saying things I'm not. As the kids today say, you can bring receipts to the conversation.

3. I have never been on the gridiron

[Jonny Utah]

FWIW regarding all the above, my understanding is that Hilbert was not really a choice - the Dutchmen wanted ten games,

These words contradict each other.

Ten games is a want. It is not a requirement for being the type of team Union wants to be. They played nine games in 2018 and it was such a problem that the 2019 team had...one of the program's best seasons ever.

Hilbert's entire football history prior to this game was:

6 games against D3 competition
Whatever level Lincoln University is 
Brockport's JV team.

They have a 63 player roster, which breaks down as follows

38-first year students
20 sophomores
5 juniors

But the thing is: I don't think Union is *bad* because they scheduled Hilbert. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing these games. After all, how else can Hilbert get opponents and get better? We all start somewhere.

I just don't think we can learn anything about how good Union is going to be in 2023 from a program like Hilbert. What is so controversial about that?

And yes, I used that phrase because to me, there is a difference between just playing a bad team like Alfred or Fisher or Bridgewater State than a program that is literally just starting.

Would the Union guys dry their tears if I invented a time machine, went back to October 21, 2001, the day after IC beat a second year Utica team 66-0, and said that there was nothing to be learned from that game, so you knew I wasn't just picking on your boys?

I have to jump in here as well.  IC has the unique postion in the LL that they are guaranteed a game every year against Cortland.  They only have to hunt down 3 other OOC games.  If you think that scheduling OOC is easy, then research a little more.  Conferences have aligned with each other, the LL was left out.  I commend every AC and HC who busted ass to find a 10th game.  If you really think that a 10th game isn't important to the players, parents, coaches and fans, then you have been off the gridiron too long.

Yea but Ithaca has NEVER had a problem hunting down other OCC games.  Union shouldn't have a problem finding four, especially seeing Springfield is a team they have played pretty much every year for the past 25 years.  I don't really care that they played Hilbert, maybe they wanted to help out a upstate team trying to fill out a schedule, while getting some work in at the same time.  But I don't believe for one second that a team like Hobart (or RPI/Hobart) can't find 4 OCC games if they plan accordingly.

Yep, getting good OOC games is hard work, but it's also doable.  As I said a few posts backs, I think Union ended up with Hilbert because of incompetence, not scheduling philosophy.  I'm not sure if it was Behrman's departure or distraction at the AD level, but they were not on the ball.  (Same thing happened in 2022, when they had trouble and had to travel to Alleghany on week 1 for a one-and-done.)  But I'm also confident that Coach Poppe has a very clear vision for who he wants to play and the requisite energy and discipline it takes to see that vision achieved.  Dude just seems to do every single thing with the volume turned to 11.

Yea agreed here.  We also don't know if another team dropped Union because of their own league scheduling concerns.  That happens.  I just never bought the people who thought the LL was doomed because it was going to be so hard to find OCC games.  This goes back 10+ years and I can't even remember why people thought this. 

Also as Ithaca has Cortland, Union seems to have Springfield locked in every year.  Ithaca bounces around Alfred, SJF, Brockport with their other three OCC teams, with a MA team recently and now we see JHU.  Ithaca had planned to have a home and home with John Carrol and then Covid hit.

[Ice Bear]

Ice Bear likes IC as well and also, more often than not, finds his posts insightful. Ice says however, stop being ****ing douchey and settle down. Ice says this is a bit too much dude.

You can disagree with rankings (as I did with Bartman's) without calling me dramatic (like you did) or accusing falsely accusing me of having a "problem" with the game ending with six kneel-downs (like Bill did.)

Or, you know, you guys are free to put out your own polls/power rankings. You want Union above Rochester? Put them there.

Ice has no problem with this. Ice says maybe this is a snarky shot from a passionate IC guy but all in all...the passionate IC guy has a point about not being able to tell much regarding Union's place in the big four with the first two teams on the schedule. Ice says it's a bit ****ing dramatic as obviously you could place them above Roch.

Ice inquires about when he mentioned the six kneel downs at all IC 

Ice doesn't need to rank anyone douche. Ice reminds your  self that YOU put the poll up there and when one does that, they open that poll, that interpretation, up for critique. Ice says when you elected to not include a team in the poll and then to about it when you received some rebuttal ON THIS BOARD, is a very snowflakeable offense. Who knows IC, maybe you are officially replacing Ice as the emotional one, the new snowflake on the board. Ice says either way keep posting as Ice still enjoys most of your contributions...even with the tissues.