FB: Liberty League

[AUPepBand]

So I watched some Wabash/Butler highlights on youtube from their game on 9/16.  Butler is FCS and averages about 3K fans a game or so and had 6,200 for the Wabash game.  Butler is no powerhouse but did go to Montana (ranked #15 in FCS) for the first game and played them tough. 

Anyway I was wondering what kind of crowd you would get if Ithaca or Hobart played at Cornell.  I bet you would have a lot of alumni come up to watch that game.  Oddly enough, Ithaca/Hobart football games get 5x-10x the amount of fans that Cornell/Hobart Lax games get (at either venue).  A quick glance on their site it appears that Hobart football does better with attendance than Hobart lax does.

We could substitute these games with Union at Colgate (or IC/RPI/Hobart) at Colgate too.  I dunno.  I think it would be cool to see a d3/FCS matchup in upstate.

Interesting topic. I noticed that when Hobart last played Ithaca at Butterfield there were 3800 in attendance .....beware of rounded number which are often the SID "guesses" as to attendance at D3 games. I don't think Hobart fan attendance would increase at Shoelkolpf Field......but if you said the Syracuse Dome, I think that could attract a crowd of Hobart alumni for a promoted Bomber game. Now, Ithaca has about three times the alumni base, so I think it would favor the Bombers on attendance , but Hobart Alums might go for quite a few luxury suites if offered as part of the promotion. A Colgate game vs. Hobart at Syracuse could get a crowd, but I doubt Colgate would agree.
  You are right that football gets more attendance than D1 lacrosse in general at Hobart with the exception of the Syracuse game.  In the 1970's  Hobart packed the old Boswell Bowl for football, especially against rival Alfred with 5k++ crowds , and Hobart Lax spilled over with 10k plus against Syracuse, Cornell or Cortland at the old Boswell Bowl in the center of campus. For Cornell lax games even a few freshly caught trophy sized Lake Trout from Seneca Lake  watched the game from the Cornell bench
   Unfortunately, attendance in general in the Northeast has plummeted over the years. My first college football game was going with my Father to the Princeton-Rutgers game(first game played in 1869) in 1964 at old Palmer Stadium to an almost sold out crowd of 40,000....of course Princeton was nationally ranked(#10 , I think) and recruited sons of coal miners from Pennsylvania instead of sons of investment bankers from New Canaan. Princeton now is lucky to get over 5000 as an FCS team.

Dem were the days, Bartman! +K AU had more than 6,000 in attendance at little Merrill Field in 1972 for "Super Bowl East" as George Davis' unbeaten Hobart Statesmen (Pumpkinheads) invaded "The Pit" to tackle ol' Alex Yunevich's unbeaten Saxons a year after the "Miracle at Geneva." Games at the old Boswell Field were treated like a home game to Saxon faithful, who loved the autumn drive through Naples, Middlesex, Rushville and Gorham to Geneva.

Pep is thinking maybe the largest crowd he's ever seen at Merrill Field was the 1973 season opener when the Saxons hosted Bridgeport University, the 8-1 program that had been selected over the 8-0 Saxons in 1971 for the Knute Rockne Bowl. Who knows how many were really there but standing room only with estimates of more than 7,000...saw the Saxons score a TD in the final minute followed by a two-point conversion for an 8-7 lead, only to see Bridgeport, thanks to an unflagged offensive pass interference, score a TD and take a 14-8 win.

That was a time when all of Alfred attended games for lack of anything better to do in this isolated educational oasis.

On Saxon Warriors!

[Bartman]

So I watched some Wabash/Butler highlights on youtube from their game on 9/16.  Butler is FCS and averages about 3K fans a game or so and had 6,200 for the Wabash game.  Butler is no powerhouse but did go to Montana (ranked #15 in FCS) for the first game and played them tough. 

Anyway I was wondering what kind of crowd you would get if Ithaca or Hobart played at Cornell.  I bet you would have a lot of alumni come up to watch that game.  Oddly enough, Ithaca/Hobart football games get 5x-10x the amount of fans that Cornell/Hobart Lax games get (at either venue).  A quick glance on their site it appears that Hobart football does better with attendance than Hobart lax does.

We could substitute these games with Union at Colgate (or IC/RPI/Hobart) at Colgate too.  I dunno.  I think it would be cool to see a d3/FCS matchup in upstate.

Interesting topic. I noticed that when Hobart last played Ithaca at Butterfield there were 3800 in attendance .....beware of rounded number which are often the SID "guesses" as to attendance at D3 games. I don't think Hobart fan attendance would increase at Shoelkolpf Field......but if you said the Syracuse Dome, I think that could attract a crowd of Hobart alumni for a promoted Bomber game. Now, Ithaca has about three times the alumni base, so I think it would favor the Bombers on attendance , but Hobart Alums might go for quite a few luxury suites if offered as part of the promotion. A Colgate game vs. Hobart at Syracuse could get a crowd, but I doubt Colgate would agree.
  You are right that football gets more attendance than D1 lacrosse in general at Hobart with the exception of the Syracuse game.  In the 1970's  Hobart packed the old Boswell Bowl for football, especially against rival Alfred with 5k++ crowds , and Hobart Lax spilled over with 10k plus against Syracuse, Cornell or Cortland at the old Boswell Bowl in the center of campus. For Cornell lax games even a few freshly caught trophy sized Lake Trout from Seneca Lake  watched the game from the Cornell bench
   Unfortunately, attendance in general in the Northeast has plummeted over the years. My first college football game was going with my Father to the Princeton-Rutgers game(first game played in 1869) in 1964 at old Palmer Stadium to an almost sold out crowd of 40,000....of course Princeton was nationally ranked(#10 , I think) and recruited sons of coal miners from Pennsylvania instead of sons of investment bankers from New Canaan. Princeton now is lucky to get over 5000 as an FCS team.

Dem were the days, Bartman! +K AU had more than 6,000 in attendance at little Merrill Field in 1972 for "Super Bowl East" as George Davis' unbeaten Hobart Statesmen (Pumpkinheads) invaded "The Pit" to tackle ol' Alex Yunevich's unbeaten Saxons a year after the "Miracle at Geneva." Games at the old Boswell Field were treated like a home game to Saxon faithful, who loved the autumn drive through Naples, Middlesex, Rushville and Gorham to Geneva.

Pep is thinking maybe the largest crowd he's ever seen at Merrill Field was the 1973 season opener when the Saxons hosted Bridgeport University, the 8-1 program that had been selected over the 8-0 Saxons in 1971 for the Knute Rockne Bowl. Who knows how many were really there but standing room only with estimates of more than 7,000...saw the Saxons score a TD in the final minute followed by a two-point conversion for an 8-7 lead, only to see Bridgeport, thanks to an unflagged offensive pass interference, score a TD and take a 14-8 win.

That was a time when all of Alfred attended games for lack of anything better to do in this isolated educational oasis.

On Saxon Warriors!

+k back to you Pep. It's impossible to explain those days to the youngins now. They don't need to go to games because it is on the internet, which has made everything more convenient, but , as you said more isolated. Going to a Hobart game this days gets way fewer students, and if not for parents and family members of the team, it would be sparse. HWS has gone to free admission for all sporting events that has slightly boosted the non student attendance, but the closest we came to the "old " feeling was when we hosted Mount Union in the first round of the playoffs in 2016 .Even that only generated about 1,300.

[tony/troy]

So I watched some Wabash/Butler highlights on youtube from their game on 9/16.  Butler is FCS and averages about 3K fans a game or so and had 6,200 for the Wabash game.  Butler is no powerhouse but did go to Montana (ranked #15 in FCS) for the first game and played them tough. 

Anyway I was wondering what kind of crowd you would get if Ithaca or Hobart played at Cornell.  I bet you would have a lot of alumni come up to watch that game.  Oddly enough, Ithaca/Hobart football games get 5x-10x the amount of fans that Cornell/Hobart Lax games get (at either venue).  A quick glance on their site it appears that Hobart football does better with attendance than Hobart lax does.

We could substitute these games with Union at Colgate (or IC/RPI/Hobart) at Colgate too.  I dunno.  I think it would be cool to see a d3/FCS matchup in upstate.

Interesting topic. I noticed that when Hobart last played Ithaca at Butterfield there were 3800 in attendance .....beware of rounded number which are often the SID "guesses" as to attendance at D3 games. I don't think Hobart fan attendance would increase at Shoelkolpf Field......but if you said the Syracuse Dome, I think that could attract a crowd of Hobart alumni for a promoted Bomber game. Now, Ithaca has about three times the alumni base, so I think it would favor the Bombers on attendance , but Hobart Alums might go for quite a few luxury suites if offered as part of the promotion. A Colgate game vs. Hobart at Syracuse could get a crowd, but I doubt Colgate would agree.
  You are right that football gets more attendance than D1 lacrosse in general at Hobart with the exception of the Syracuse game.  In the 1970's  Hobart packed the old Boswell Bowl for football, especially against rival Alfred with 5k++ crowds , and Hobart Lax spilled over with 10k plus against Syracuse, Cornell or Cortland at the old Boswell Bowl in the center of campus. For Cornell lax games even a few freshly caught trophy sized Lake Trout from Seneca Lake  watched the game from the Cornell bench
   Unfortunately, attendance in general in the Northeast has plummeted over the years. My first college football game was going with my Father to the Princeton-Rutgers game(first game played in 1869) in 1964 at old Palmer Stadium to an almost sold out crowd of 40,000....of course Princeton was nationally ranked(#10 , I think) and recruited sons of coal miners from Pennsylvania instead of sons of investment bankers from New Canaan. Princeton now is lucky to get over 5000 as an FCS team.

Dem were the days, Bartman! +K AU had more than 6,000 in attendance at little Merrill Field in 1972 for "Super Bowl East" as George Davis' unbeaten Hobart Statesmen (Pumpkinheads) invaded "The Pit" to tackle ol' Alex Yunevich's unbeaten Saxons a year after the "Miracle at Geneva." Games at the old Boswell Field were treated like a home game to Saxon faithful, who loved the autumn drive through Naples, Middlesex, Rushville and Gorham to Geneva.

Pep is thinking maybe the largest crowd he's ever seen at Merrill Field was the 1973 season opener when the Saxons hosted Bridgeport University, the 8-1 program that had been selected over the 8-0 Saxons in 1971 for the Knute Rockne Bowl. Who knows how many were really there but standing room only with estimates of more than 7,000...saw the Saxons score a TD in the final minute followed by a two-point conversion for an 8-7 lead, only to see Bridgeport, thanks to an unflagged offensive pass interference, score a TD and take a 14-8 win.

That was a time when all of Alfred attended games for lack of anything better to do in this isolated educational oasis.

On Saxon Warriors!

+k back to you Pep. It's impossible to explain those days to the youngins now. They don't need to go to games because it is on the internet, which has made everything more convenient, but , as you said more isolated. Going to a Hobart game this days gets way fewer students, and if not for parents and family members of the team, it would be sparse. HWS has gone to free admission for all sporting events that has slightly boosted the non student attendance, but the closest we came to the "old " feeling was when we hosted Mount Union in the first round of the playoffs in 2016 .Even that only generated about 1,300.

How well said. However, you left out the the biggest culprit of them all. One that did not even exist for many of the dates listed above, at least not around here. That is CABLE TELEVISION.

Lets see. On November 4 RPI plays Hobart. Don't really matter which year it is or where its played. Either is three hours each way. Sure you can go. Beyond football one of the destinations is actually a very nice place to visit (possibly the best Liberty League football destination there is losing out to only Saratoga if you include all sports) with nice friendly people and an awesome lake to boot. Nice place or not (Troy, at least downtown, is not), if you travel on 11/4 you are ditching Washington-USC, Notre Dame-Clemson, LSU-Alabama, Texas A&M-Ole Miss and, yes, even Army-Air Force.

Be it three hours, three miles or a walk, are there still diehards that might leave the house for a local event and ditch at least some of the above that day? Absolutely. Are there even more that will no longer even consider it, even for free. You better believe it!!!

[Bartman]

Excellent point Tony/Troy about the availability of so much college football on cable TV. On Saturday, my DVR is full with the games of interest, so I can replay at my leisure whether I see a live game that day or not. The DVR invention was the most awesome invention of all for sports enthusiasts, that allows me to see the Hobart game live and then see my favorites on recordings.

[Bartman]

LIBERTY LEAGUE WEEKLY AWARDS, Congratulations!


Offensive Performer of the Week: Johnny Colombi, Hobart(3 Passing TDs and ! rushing TD)
Defensive Performer of the Week: Jaden Duncan, Union
Special Teams Performer of the Week: Jared Elstein, RPI
Rookie of the Week: E.J. Taylor, Hobart
Honor Roll: Jaimen Bliss, Hobart; Michael Fiore, Union; Tawa Jordy, Rochester; Will Lederman, St. Lawrence; Ryan Rose, Rochester; Ryan Watson, St. Lawrence; Kayden White, RPI

[Ice Bear]

LIBERTY LEAGUE WEEKLY AWARDS, Congratulations!


Offensive Performer of the Week: Johnny Colombi, Hobart(3 Passing TDs and ! rushing TD)
Defensive Performer of the Week: Jaden Duncan, Union
Special Teams Performer of the Week: Jared Elstein, RPI
Rookie of the Week: E.J. Taylor, Hobart
Honor Roll: Jaimen Bliss, Hobart; Michael Fiore, Union; Tawa Jordy, Rochester; Will Lederman, St. Lawrence; Ryan Rose, Rochester; Ryan Watson, St. Lawrence; Kayden White, RPI

What are your thoughts on Colombi?

[Bartman]

LIBERTY LEAGUE WEEKLY AWARDS, Congratulations!


Offensive Performer of the Week: Johnny Colombi, Hobart(3 Passing TDs and ! rushing TD)
Defensive Performer of the Week: Jaden Duncan, Union
Special Teams Performer of the Week: Jared Elstein, RPI
Rookie of the Week: E.J. Taylor, Hobart
Honor Roll: Jaimen Bliss, Hobart; Michael Fiore, Union; Tawa Jordy, Rochester; Will Lederman, St. Lawrence; Ryan Rose, Rochester; Ryan Watson, St. Lawrence; Kayden White, RPI

What are your thoughts on Colombi?

Colombi has progressed fairly quickly this year in the three games. The games against Alfred and Morrisville State were intended to develop the offensive line so we could leverage our known asset, the running game. Colombi had a few throws but nothing to indicate our potential to succeed in the pass game. The Keystone game gave Colombi the perfect opportunity to focus on the pass game and he made some excellent throws for TDs(I think he is notch above Krewson from last year but he's no Shane Sweeney). I think Colombi is similar to Wingfield in that he can make the throws but kill you with his legs at the right time as evidenced by his 40+ yard scamper for a TD last Saturday. Of course, he hasn't made the pressure throws in big games the way Wingfield has, so this Saturday at Butterfield will be the biggest game of his life and I think he has the potential to step up.
I'm feeling as good about driving south to Ithaca as I have since the Bombers joined the LL. We will be underdogs but I think it will be close like the 2021 game when our last drive just ran out of time at the end of the game inside the 20 yardline. I know our Senior running backs Boswell and Denham are proud Rochester and Syracuse region men that want this game more than anything. So, I know the effort will be there and hopefully DeWall and his coaching staff can win the coaches' chess game and be bold at the right times.

[IC798891]

I'm less sold on Colombi. For the same reason I tend to be less sold on lots of other things — quality of competition.

Whatever Hobart's goals were in the first two games — and I'll trust Bartman's take on it — Colombi threw sparingly. And Keystone is simply not on IC's level.

The reason I think Hobart will give Ithaca a lot of trouble this week is because the Bombers offense has lacked the explosive, big play, and not been able to get out to big leads. The longer Hobart is in the game, the more they can lean on their strong running game — which, no disrespect to Colombi — is clearly the focal point of their offense. If the Bombers get out to a big lead, then I think they take it home comfortably

Ithaca 23, Hobart 21

[Bartman]

I'm less sold on Colombi. For the same reason I tend to be less sold on lots of other things — quality of competition.

Whatever Hobart's goals were in the first two games — and I'll trust Bartman's take on it — Colombi threw sparingly. And Keystone is simply not on IC's level.

The reason I think Hobart will give Ithaca a lot of trouble this week is because the Bombers offense has lacked the explosive, big play, and not been able to get out to big leads. The longer Hobart is in the game, the more they can lean on their strong running game — which, no disrespect to Colombi — is clearly the focal point of their offense. If the Bombers get out to a big lead, then I think they take it home comfortably

Ithaca 23, Hobart 21

IC 7, I understand and respect your comments, although, I was just giving an "early assessment" to Ice Bear's question. Colombi has a small body of work and his best game passing was against Keystone , so it is valid to not be sold at this point, especially before a game with a defense as strong as Ithaca. I have seen him in practice(I know it's not a game) and he is talented. His receivers have to complement him, and I am less sure about that against a stronger DB roster .
   The computer simulation on versus-sports has the Bombers winning by 13. I think your comment that if Ithaca gets off to an early lead, that may be problematic for Hobart, is fair. However, the buzz around the team is that they feel more together than  the last few seasons, Rayshawn and Denham are healthy simultaneously for the first time in a long while  ....Colombi is a good leader and the Defense will keep them in every game as the linebacker group, in particular,  is as strong and deep as ever. If they get down, say 14-0, I think this group can stay focused and claw back.
    Most will favor Ithaca  by at least a touchdown , but I have to go with Hobart with pride motivating a good squad for the first win at Butterfield 27-24.

[IC798891]

It's also really hard to know what to make of Ithaca. The Endicott stomping of Hardin Simmons really makes the IC game a totally different thing. Apparently Hardin Simmons is still better than Endicott — because when your school has Hardin in the name, it's never your on the field results that matter for rankings, it's just a "Trust us, Bro" kind of thing — despite getting their doors blown off, so I can't give Ithaca too much credit for, unlike Simmons, actually knowing how to beat them (and win playoff games, but that's a whole other thing.)

But it could be possible that Ithaca isn't as down as they look, and that they've played a very tough schedule, all on the road. We'll learn a lot about both teams this week.

[Pat Coleman]

We get it, Patrick -- you aren't a fan. The best part of a playoff bracket is that a team can always win its way to the national title even if the voters don't think they will.

[unionpalooza]

We get it, Patrick -- you aren't a fan. The best part of a playoff bracket is that a team can always win its way to the national title even if the voters don't think they will.

This is pretty dismissive of what I think is a pretty fair criticism by IC.  I mean, can anyone construct a rationale argument for putting HSU ahead of Endicott based on 2023 on-field evidence?  This is not like giving ignoring a close head to head loss to go with a 9-1 team over another 9-1 team with a much inferior body of work.  This is ranking a 2-1 team ahead of the 2-1 team that just blew it out on the field; it's not anything any serious would or should so.  A majority of pollsters who are clearly giving more weight to reputation and their own prior opinion (HSU is#5!) than reality. It's a walking example of confirmation bias in action.

Which is fine, btw.  It's a poll, not science; it's goal is to entertain and drive clicks, not dispense the king's justice.  But if you want people to take it seriously, then there's no need to get defensive about reasonable criticism.  Heck, maybe you even ask yourself what it mean to take that criticisms seriously?  For example, if I look at the AFCA poll, it is meaningfully dumber than the D3 poll.  And my hunch is that the dumbest poll positions in the D3 poll come from coaches, who understandably probably have very little idea what's going on nationally week to week, as that is not at all their job.  (Also, they are probably handed it to a GA any way.). I personally would LOVE to see what the D3F poll would like if all coach submissions are excluded.  That thing is probably wicked smart.

[IC798891]

We get it, Patrick -- you aren't a fan. The best part of a playoff bracket is that a team can always win its way to the national title even if the voters don't think they will.

You're definitely right about playoff brackets. But you know what? It's not NCAA playoff time. It's not even Regional Rankings time. It's Week 5

I used to cover wrestling on a newspaper beat, and Cornell's head coach would always give me the same line when I asked my first question about how his team did that week. "I don't care about how they wrestled against [whatever team]. I care about how they wrestle at the NCAA Championships."

So finally, I told him, "Okay, coach, then we're not going to cover your team for two months. See you in March."

If you want people to have discourse on your message boards or comment sections, then they're going to do it based on the fodder in front of them. And right now, what I have in front of me is not a playoff bracket, or a regional ranking. What I have is a Top 25 that puts Hardin Simmons ahead of a team they lost to by four touchdowns a week after being told that Top 25 decisions should be based on "if you think Team A can beat Team B, Team A goes ahead of them."

I mean, yes I could be quiet until we're sure Hardin Simmons will finish in second place in the ASC for the 47th year in a row, or by some miracle, actually beats the team that owns them.

But, where you're wrong is that I didn't bring up the ridiculous hypocrisy of putting Hardin Simmons in front of a team that boat raced them to needle anyone.

I brought it up because I'm talking with someone about whether Ithaca can beat Hobart, and my impression is directly impacted by how good Endicott is. And, because, I value other opinions besides my own, your site's poll, being the best piece of independent information that exists, helps inform that conclusion.

So yeah, I'm going to bring up that I think your site's poll underrates Endicott when talking about how good I think IC is as part of a conversation about whether I think Ithaca can beat Hobart. And I'll explain why I think that. That's how discourse works, Pat

[Bartman]

So if Hobart beats Ithaca,  am I expecting a ranking above Ithaca? Endicott? Hardin Simmons? or UW Lacrosse who lost to Hardin Simmons?I can only hope the possibility of debating this occurs after Saturdays 29.4% chance of possibly winning as predicted by the incredible science of Doctor Hansen, who BTW, also ranks Hardin Simmons over Endicott .

[Pat Coleman]

My point is just about seeing the same discourse from the same person in multiple places. I get it. It's well known to me that you don't like it. And you spend a good number of words just to bash the poll and not evaluating Hobart-Ithaca.

I don't like it either, by the way.

Also, it is not just coaches. There are SIDs who have HSU ahead of Endicott, and probably even a media member or two.

HSU dropping 13 spots is already a LOT, even for a team with a bad loss.

In the offseason I evaluate all of the voters, and I typically change about five. During the season it doesn't change unless someone doesn't file their ballots.