FB: Liberty League

[Pat Coleman]

I find it interesting that Greg Thomas picked Union as his most surprising 5-0 team this season. At first, I scratched my head a bit but then after thinking about it, and seeing his reasoning in a response he made to a posted comment, I kind of get it.

This team was 6-4 last year and was steam rolled over the last three games of the season (throw into that the devastating comeback loss to Utica in week 4 as well). I say steamrolled not referring to the score differential per say, but losing three in a row to their top rivals, all at the end of the season. The proverbial air was completely let out of the balloon. Especially after the loss to RPI, which was was absolutely embarrassing. Not because of RPI but because of the way we played. IMHO Union may have found themselves in a place they hadn't been, since Behrman took over...and yes that includes their initial 3-7 season. Move ahead to this this season and you have a new coach, some losses at some key positions (WR and the secondary), and some uncertainty about which direction this team would head in 2023. Who knew what we were going to see? Obviously knowing Pacatte was coming back, Tolbert, a strong D-line and LB core made me think they would be competitive, but I still didn't know and was feeling quite down at the end of last season.

Now, we must take into account this weak schedule, which really consists of three scrimmages, one quasi-test in Springfield, and a Montclair team that I still have no clue about, and you may say, "No, 5-0 was expected." Honestly, I see it either way, it is a surprise they are 5-0 and it's not a surprise they are 5-0.

However, what Greg did say, that does really make sense to me is the way in which Union has arrived at 5-0, is surprising. They have really looked good, especially the two times they faced ok competition. Obviously IC, Hobart, and RPI seem like they are big steps up, and I think they are. But Union has looked very good on both sides of the ball. So good that I've even come to "nit pick" a bit to point out any weaknesses that I think may hurt the Garnet Chargers against the big boys.

So, taking all into account, this has been a very good start for Union and maybe one where some say they could be the best of the four...or at the very least in the mix. Either way I applaud Greg for his pick of Union even though it's not such an easy sell. Gutsy call Greg. Well done.

Yeah, I think it's more the style that he was deeming surprising.  Maybe 5-0 is not a shocker given the schedule, but I don't think many would have predicted that Union would have outscored its opponents 205-14 in the first four games and be among the top 10 nationally in fifteen different statistical categories.  That said, I think many did not expect much from Union because they didn't realize how much Union brought back this year, and the fact that 6-4 final record looks a lot worse than what might have been, as Union blew three blown late leads against Utica, Hobart, and Ithaca.

On that same column, I thought Greg's take on the poll issues we've been discussing was really thoughtful.  Folks should check it out, if they haven't.

Agreed, and there are comments on that column that may be of interest to LL people (including responses from me where a poster really misquoted me).

[UfanBill]

Lawther is injured. If Lederman keeps playing like he has it might be his spot indefinitely.

Thanks for the clarification on Lawther. I hope he's able to play Saturday. IceBear, IceSr and I first noticed him when he entered for the Larries Saints late at Union in 2021...BTW this board is better when YOU post about St. Lawrence football. I think we all would also like to hear from Rochester and Buff. St...Bengalsrule are you still out there?

[Ice Bear]

I find it interesting that Greg Thomas picked Union as his most surprising 5-0 team this season. At first, I scratched my head a bit but then after thinking about it, and seeing his reasoning in a response he made to a posted comment, I kind of get it.

This team was 6-4 last year and was steam rolled over the last three games of the season (throw into that the devastating comeback loss to Utica in week 4 as well). I say steamrolled not referring to the score differential per say, but losing three in a row to their top rivals, all at the end of the season. The proverbial air was completely let out of the balloon. Especially after the loss to RPI, which was was absolutely embarrassing. Not because of RPI but because of the way we played. IMHO Union may have found themselves in a place they hadn't been, since Behrman took over...and yes that includes their initial 3-7 season. Move ahead to this this season and you have a new coach, some losses at some key positions (WR and the secondary), and some uncertainty about which direction this team would head in 2023. Who knew what we were going to see? Obviously knowing Pacatte was coming back, Tolbert, a strong D-line and LB core made me think they would be competitive, but I still didn't know and was feeling quite down at the end of last season.

Now, we must take into account this weak schedule, which really consists of three scrimmages, one quasi-test in Springfield, and a Montclair team that I still have no clue about, and you may say, "No, 5-0 was expected." Honestly, I see it either way, it is a surprise they are 5-0 and it's not a surprise they are 5-0.

However, what Greg did say, that does really make sense to me is the way in which Union has arrived at 5-0, is surprising. They have really looked good, especially the two times they faced ok competition. Obviously IC, Hobart, and RPI seem like they are big steps up, and I think they are. But Union has looked very good on both sides of the ball. So good that I've even come to "nit pick" a bit to point out any weaknesses that I think may hurt the Garnet Chargers against the big boys.

So, taking all into account, this has been a very good start for Union and maybe one where some say they could be the best of the four...or at the very least in the mix. Either way I applaud Greg for his pick of Union even though it's not such an easy sell. Gutsy call Greg. Well done.

Yeah, I think it's more the style that he was deeming surprising.  Maybe 5-0 is not a shocker given the schedule, but I don't think many would have predicted that Union would have outscored its opponents 205-14 in the first four games and be among the top 10 nationally in fifteen different statistical categories.  That said, I think many did not expect much from Union because they didn't realize how much Union brought back this year, and the fact that 6-4 final record looks a lot worse than what might have been, as Union blew three blown late leads against Utica, Hobart, and Ithaca.

On that same column, I thought Greg's take on the poll issues we've been discussing was really thoughtful.  Folks should check it out, if they haven't.

Agreed, and there are comments on that column that may be of interest to LL people (including responses from me where a poster really misquoted me).

That was a great ATN and certainly some interesting comments in there. Regarding the discussion earlier in the week here it seems as if more than half of the voters went with the more head-to-head approach voting Endicott higher in the poll than H-S. I think sometimes here in the East, where there is a victory or a game that is very well played over one of the top 5, even top 10 teams in the nation, we want there to be an immediate acknowledgement of that. I certainly understand why, and sometimes feel that way myself (and definitely have in the past). With that said I think it also comes up because many here in the east are starved to have a team relevant to that top 10, that top 5 (which I believe there is usually a significant gap between teams 5-10 and 1-5). Many of us are old farts who were around when teams in the East were "that good" miss those days. However as I age and continue to watch and support D3 football I tend to take the approach of really enjoying what I have right in front of me. Of course I also enjoy the top games/teams/matchups but I don't yearn for Union to be there as I used to. I believe IC made a point a while back about something to do with this and it made a mark on me. It's ok to bot be in those top 5 or top 10 teams. To be with those other 230 teams-ish is fine and good football from true student athletes across all of D3 is what is great.

[IC798891]

This is the last thing I'll say about the Endicott/Simmons thing. I promise. And I'm not going to be snarky or rude — and I was before, so apologies. And this has gone through snarky drafts. But this is not snark.

Hardin Simmons is afforded the benefit of the doubt by the voters every year. Every year since 2015, they have made it into the Top 10, and occasionally the Top 5. They have not won a single NCAA playoff game in the history of the d3football.com poll. They have lost 20 of their last 21 to Hardin-Baylor.

That doesn't mean the voters are wrong to rank them highly. It means they've been giving Hardin-Simmons the benefit of the doubt when they do it. Because Hardin-Baylor is elite. Because the games are close. Because the NCAA is too cheap to pay for flights so they have often been stuck with the Round 1 rematch vs. UMHB.

But this wasn't Hardin-Baylor. It wasn't close. It wasn't because the NCAA is cheap. And more importantly, this wasn't some hypothetical thought exercise like "Would Hardin Simmons beat [whatever elite team]?"

There's the benefit of the doubt and there's "the actual results don't matter." And that's what this feels like.

Look, I'm old enough to remember Buff State beating Whitewater. That was a program a decade removed from relevancy squeaking out a 1-point win thanks to a 4th and 19 conversion with 30 seconds left. This was not that

This was a team that spent several weeks in the Top 25 last year winning a game in which they never trailed and led by 34 points after the third quarter. Hardin Simmons used three quarterbacks and Endicott blanked them all. Endicott didn't turn the ball over and committed just two penalties for 10 yards.

But here we are again, and like it's been for much of the past 20 years, for a sizable segment of voters, it doesn't seem to matter than Hardin Simmons didn't actually win the game on the field.

So yeah, it's frustrating.

[Bartman]

This is the last thing I'll say about the Endicott/Simmons thing. I promise. And I'm not going to be snarky or rude — and I was before, so apologies. And this has gone through snarky drafts. But this is not snark.

Hardin Simmons is afforded the benefit of the doubt by the voters every year. Every year since 2015, they have made it into the Top 10, and occasionally the Top 5. They have not won a single NCAA playoff game in the history of the d3football.com poll. They have lost 20 of their last 21 to Hardin-Baylor.

That doesn't mean the voters are wrong to rank them highly. It means they've been giving Hardin-Simmons the benefit of the doubt when they do it. Because Hardin-Baylor is elite. Because the games are close. Because the NCAA is too cheap to pay for flights so they have often been stuck with the Round 1 rematch vs. UMHB.

But this wasn't Hardin-Baylor. It wasn't close. It wasn't because the NCAA is cheap. And more importantly, this wasn't some hypothetical thought exercise like "Would Hardin Simmons beat [whatever elite team]?"

There's the benefit of the doubt and there's "the actual results don't matter." And that's what this feels like.

Look, I'm old enough to remember Buff State beating Whitewater. That was a program a decade removed from relevancy squeaking out a 1-point win thanks to a 4th and 19 conversion with 30 seconds left. This was not that

This was a team that spent several weeks in the Top 25 last year winning a game in which they never trailed and led by 34 points after the third quarter. Hardin Simmons used three quarterbacks and Endicott blanked them all. Endicott didn't turn the ball over and committed just two penalties for 10 yards.

But here we are again, and like it's been for much of the past 20 years, for a sizable segment of voters, it doesn't seem to matter than Hardin Simmons didn't actually win the game on the field.

So yeah, it's frustrating.

+K IC7, point made, well written and sans the snark.

[Ice Bear]

This is the last thing I'll say about the Endicott/Simmons thing. I promise. And I'm not going to be snarky or rude — and I was before, so apologies. And this has gone through snarky drafts. But this is not snark.

Hardin Simmons is afforded the benefit of the doubt by the voters every year. Every year since 2015, they have made it into the Top 10, and occasionally the Top 5. They have not won a single NCAA playoff game in the history of the d3football.com poll. They have lost 20 of their last 21 to Hardin-Baylor.

That doesn't mean the voters are wrong to rank them highly. It means they've been giving Hardin-Simmons the benefit of the doubt when they do it. Because Hardin-Baylor is elite. Because the games are close. Because the NCAA is too cheap to pay for flights so they have often been stuck with the Round 1 rematch vs. UMHB.

But this wasn't Hardin-Baylor. It wasn't close. It wasn't because the NCAA is cheap. And more importantly, this wasn't some hypothetical thought exercise like "Would Hardin Simmons beat [whatever elite team]?"

There's the benefit of the doubt and there's "the actual results don't matter." And that's what this feels like.

Look, I'm old enough to remember Buff State beating Whitewater. That was a program a decade removed from relevancy squeaking out a 1-point win thanks to a 4th and 19 conversion with 30 seconds left. This was not that

This was a team that spent several weeks in the Top 25 last year winning a game in which they never trailed and led by 34 points after the third quarter. Hardin Simmons used three quarterbacks and Endicott blanked them all. Endicott didn't turn the ball over and committed just two penalties for 10 yards.

But here we are again, and like it's been for much of the past 20 years, for a sizable segment of voters, it doesn't seem to matter than Hardin Simmons didn't actually win the game on the field.

So yeah, it's frustrating.

+k my friend. Your thoughts are very well communicated here. I always appreciate your passionate thoughts and expertise.

[UfanBill]

A question for you Ithaca guys. I'll be attending the St. Lawrence/Union game today but would like to watch Hobart/Ithaca after. Does ICTV archive their football broadcasts? Since the Bombers haven't played a home game yet I was unable to find a definitive link. Thanks

[stlawus]

Just too many injuries on this SLU offensive line for the team to be competitive

[stlawus]

A question for you Ithaca guys. I'll be attending the St. Lawrence/Union game today but would like to watch Hobart/Ithaca after. Does ICTV archive their football broadcasts? Since the Bombers haven't played a home game yet I was unable to find a definitive link. Thanks

ICTV usually has archives.   It was a bit tricky to find last I checked but it should be there.

[IC798891]

A question for you Ithaca guys. I'll be attending the St. Lawrence/Union game today but would like to watch Hobart/Ithaca after. Does ICTV archive their football broadcasts? Since the Bombers haven't played a home game yet I was unable to find a definitive link. Thanks

ICTV usually has archives.   It was a bit tricky to find last I checked but it should be there.

They do, yes.

Here's the link!

http://ictv.org/bomberslive/

[Caz Bombers]

IC breaks a long one to go back up 10 with about 8 minutes left

[Caz Bombers]

Bombers 24 Pumpkinheads 14, undefeated all time on the new turf.

[Ice Bear]

Bombers 24 Pumpkinheads 14, undefeated all time on the new turf.

Congratulations to Ithaca on a big win today at Butterfield. That 70+ yard TD run to ice it was very impressive. I eat some crow and IC passes the first big test in LL play. Both defenses were impressive for the most part and both offenses were pretty much what we expected. Some solid football being played in the LL.

[unionpalooza]

A hard fought Ithaca win.  This looked like a very even match up, Ithaca just made the big plays when it needed them.

Union did it's thing, beating SLU 34-0.  The Saints couldn't do anything against the Union defense, who get another shutout and will keep its hand on the nation's 1 scoring defense, but I thought SLU's defense hung in there and has some good athletes.   Might have been the most boring second half of football I've seen in a long time.

Two very intriguing matchups next week.  I think Rochester will give Union a tough game, with a balanced attack that will test the Union defense.  And Ithaca-RPI will be a great one, I think.  I think the RPI passing attack and its front seven will challenge Ithaca in ways Hobart didn't, and Wingfield will need to finally start pushing the ball downfield.

[Jonny Utah]

I watched the last 3 quarters of the Ithaca/Hobart game.  Both teams seem to have a problem finding an identity on offense.  Hobart seemed to throw it out of bounds too many times on 3rd down, while Ithaca again can't seem to find a passing rhythm with anyone except Kline.  Hobart's defense is very tough and well coached.  Ithaca also has a defense that plays hard and fast to the ball.  I have a small feeling that Ithaca's offense is getting too predictable.  QB GT, WR screens, Inside zone...etc... etc.  I dunno it just seems kinda stale to me like teams know what's coming a good majority of the time.  Hopefully Jake Williams comes back and they can use the Jalens in other spots.