FB: Liberty League

[Machiavelli]

I can say with absolute certainty that I selected where I would get my higher education based upon the mascot/nicknames of said institutions. The Engineers and Seahawks were straight fire and I could have never imagined going to any of the other institutions with lame mascot/nicknames like the 'Lions', 'Stags', 'Engineers'(maybe same name but terrible colors), 'Ephs, 'Wildcats', 'Riverhawks', etc. All completely lame. Everyone knows this is critical to the deicision making process of selecting where to attend college. No one EVER would select lame names like the 'Crimson' or 'Bulldogs' or 'Bears' or 'Big Green' or even the 'Garnet Chargers'. Would be a tremendous waste of time and resources to attend any institution with a mascot/nickname I can't identify with.

[Jonny Utah]

I'm kinda pissed that Swathmore is allowed to trademark a color. 

[ICAlum16]

Very late to the party here but busy weekend for ICAlum as my sister got married on Saturday in Hobartville (Geneva... beautiful place for a wedding if I might add).

I didn't get to watch much of the IC game because of ceremonies but did shell out the $6 to watch some of the first half (interesting strategy from Rochester but a discussion for the offseason). I forget who said it over the weekend but I believe they were correct about getting the new QB comfortable throwing early in the game. As a freshman that is a tough spot so he will only get more comfortable and it looks like has a strong arm so stretching the ball vertically to Deumaga hopefully becomes more of a part of the game plan. That IC defense is elite and JLO is a bonafied stud. He should be LL OPOY and I think should be a serious AA candidate.

Credit to Rochester for playing tough and that program is building. The LL continues to be the toughest league in the northeast and excited for future matchups. Hopefully the next two weeks the Bombers are able to build a lead and get the QB some confidence throwing the ball heading into Cortaca and the playoffs.

I do have a question for the Hobart fans here, what seems to be the issue with the Statesmen? Since 2014 when I lost to them in the first round of the playoffs, they seem to have really fallen off and not been able to beat the upper tier teams in the region. Is this an issue with DeWall? I am curious to hear the thoughts of the fans on the last few years of struggles getting over the hump.

[unionpalooza]

I'm kinda pissed that Swathmore is allowed to trademark a color.

You can trade mark anything, but there's no way their trademark to "Garnet" would ever hold up on an infringement claim. Totally generic.  Union should have just gone with Garnet and ignored the trademark issue.  Or paid Swarthmore some small sum. Apparently, they didn't even contact them. 

[Machiavelli]

I'm kinda pissed that Swathmore is allowed to trademark a color.

You can trade mark anything, but there's no way their trademark to "Garnet" would ever hold up on an infringement claim. Totally generic.  Union should have just gone with Garnet and ignored the trademark issue.  Or paid Swarthmore some small sum. Apparently, they didn't even contact them.

College nicknames/mascots are interchangeable across so many different schools, how can one be trademarked? That makes no sense to me. I do think the Union College Garnet Wine and Cheesers would've really captured what the Admistration was shooting for, though. Missed opportunity.

[Garnet]

I'm kinda pissed that Swathmore is allowed to trademark a color.

You can trade mark anything, but there's no way their trademark to "Garnet" would ever hold up on an infringement claim. Totally generic.  Union should have just gone with Garnet and ignored the trademark issue.  Or paid Swarthmore some small sum. Apparently, they didn't even contact them.

In this situation, Garnet is the same as Tigers, or Eagles or any other generic moniker.  I don't think anyone can trademark a color unless they 'created' the color.  If Union wanted to be known as The Union College Garnet, there is nothing to stop them from doing so.  Union believes they are being unique with this moniker change.  One word, lame.

Copyrights or trademarks for a school logo are different than a moniker.

[Bartman]

Very late to the party here but busy weekend for ICAlum as my sister got married on Saturday in Hobartville (Geneva... beautiful place for a wedding if I might add).

I didn't get to watch much of the IC game because of ceremonies but did shell out the $6 to watch some of the first half (interesting strategy from Rochester but a discussion for the offseason). I forget who said it over the weekend but I believe they were correct about getting the new QB comfortable throwing early in the game. As a freshman that is a tough spot so he will only get more comfortable and it looks like has a strong arm so stretching the ball vertically to Deumaga hopefully becomes more of a part of the game plan. That IC defense is elite and JLO is a bonafied stud. He should be LL OPOY and I think should be a serious AA candidate.

Credit to Rochester for playing tough and that program is building. The LL continues to be the toughest league in the northeast and excited for future matchups. Hopefully the next two weeks the Bombers are able to build a lead and get the QB some confidence throwing the ball heading into Cortaca and the playoffs.

I do have a question for the Hobart fans here, what seems to be the issue with the Statesmen? Since 2014 when I lost to them in the first round of the playoffs, they seem to have really fallen off and not been able to beat the upper tier teams in the region. Is this an issue with DeWall? I am curious to hear the thoughts of the fans on the last few years of struggles getting over the hump.

I guess both Union and RPI are not upper tier teams .....we only just beat them both last year(oops edit we beat RPI 2 years ago and lost to them at RPI by 3 last year), and have a good track record with the historic LL members over the last 10 years. While we do have issues beating Ithaca at Buttercup Field,, it's comments like this that make me wish we voted in St.John Fisher or Alfred as full LL members that would have been more grateful for escaping the E8. There, I have it off my chest and feel totally fine now.
  It is true that before Coach Cragg( Cragg was a kick ass take no prisoners type) resigned as HC to head up the Athletic  department development staff and Coach DeWall(a total gentleman and Hobart grad) took over we have not won a LL title, but the record is not too shabby. We compete with a pure Liberal Arts curriculum, that I believe hurts us in recruiting these days ( Business seems to be a favorite major for male athletes, and Hobart  offers Economics) We have added an Entrepreneurship/ Management Major and Masters program, that seems to have helped the more career focused generation, instead of mine that would have studied anything to stay out of the draft and risked being killed in the jungles of Viet Nam. 
   See you next year at the Boz where we will try to snap the ball better and not give you the game
   

[unionpalooza]

Very late to the party here but busy weekend for ICAlum as my sister got married on Saturday in Hobartville (Geneva... beautiful place for a wedding if I might add).

I didn't get to watch much of the IC game because of ceremonies but did shell out the $6 to watch some of the first half (interesting strategy from Rochester but a discussion for the offseason). I forget who said it over the weekend but I believe they were correct about getting the new QB comfortable throwing early in the game. As a freshman that is a tough spot so he will only get more comfortable and it looks like has a strong arm so stretching the ball vertically to Deumaga hopefully becomes more of a part of the game plan. That IC defense is elite and JLO is a bonafied stud. He should be LL OPOY and I think should be a serious AA candidate.

Credit to Rochester for playing tough and that program is building. The LL continues to be the toughest league in the northeast and excited for future matchups. Hopefully the next two weeks the Bombers are able to build a lead and get the QB some confidence throwing the ball heading into Cortaca and the playoffs.

I do have a question for the Hobart fans here, what seems to be the issue with the Statesmen? Since 2014 when I lost to them in the first round of the playoffs, they seem to have really fallen off and not been able to beat the upper tier teams in the region. Is this an issue with DeWall? I am curious to hear the thoughts of the fans on the last few years of struggles getting over the hump.

I guess both Union and RPI are not upper tier teams .....we only just beat them both last year(oops edit we beat RPI 2 years ago and lost to them at RPI by 3 last year), and have a good track record with the historic LL members over the last 10 years. While we do have issues beating Ithaca at Buttercup Field,, it's comments like this that make me wish we voted in St.John Fisher or Alfred as full LL members that would have been more grateful for escaping the E8. There, I have it off my chest and feel totally fine now.
  It is true that before Coach Cragg( Cragg was a kick ass take no prisoners type) resigned as HC to head up the Athletic  department development staff and Coach DeWall(a total gentleman and Hobart grad) took over we have not won a LL title, but the record is not too shabby. We compete with a pure Liberal Arts curriculum, that I believe hurts us in recruiting these days ( Business seems to be a favorite major for male athletes, and Hobart  offers Economics) We have added an Entrepreneurship/ Management Major and Masters program, that seems to have helped the more career focused generation, instead of mine that would have studied anything to stay out of the draft and risked being killed in the jungles of Viet Nam. 
   See you next year at the Boz where we will try to snap the ball better and not give you the game

Yeah, Hobart has been just fine since 2014.  Here are the program win percentages for 2015-2022:

Hobart - .726
RPI - .725
Ithaca - .684
Union - .600* (includes Audino 0-10 nosedive season)

And here are the number of LL title/playoff bids:

RPI - 3
Hobart - 1
Ithaca - 1
SLU - 1
Union - 1

Hobart has actually been the most consistent team in the LL.  And so while it's true it's been a while they won the league, I think part of that is just a function of having four very strong teams year after year; you kind of have to wait for your "turn" to run that gauntlet better that the others any given year.

It is interesting to think about whether the LL is too "stacked" for its teams' own good, particularly in the age of so few Pool C bids. That's especially true if you look at recent trends - over the last four full seasons, the Big Four are a combined 133-42, for a combined win percentage of .760.  (This year it is likely to be .833!)  I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty confident that NO OTHER LEAGUE has four teams with a better winning percentage over that stretch.  (For comparison, the best four in the WIAC over that period - UWW, UWL, UWO and UWRF - have a .702 winning percentage.)

[Jonny Utah]

Very late to the party here but busy weekend for ICAlum as my sister got married on Saturday in Hobartville (Geneva... beautiful place for a wedding if I might add).

I didn't get to watch much of the IC game because of ceremonies but did shell out the $6 to watch some of the first half (interesting strategy from Rochester but a discussion for the offseason). I forget who said it over the weekend but I believe they were correct about getting the new QB comfortable throwing early in the game. As a freshman that is a tough spot so he will only get more comfortable and it looks like has a strong arm so stretching the ball vertically to Deumaga hopefully becomes more of a part of the game plan. That IC defense is elite and JLO is a bonafied stud. He should be LL OPOY and I think should be a serious AA candidate.

Credit to Rochester for playing tough and that program is building. The LL continues to be the toughest league in the northeast and excited for future matchups. Hopefully the next two weeks the Bombers are able to build a lead and get the QB some confidence throwing the ball heading into Cortaca and the playoffs.

I do have a question for the Hobart fans here, what seems to be the issue with the Statesmen? Since 2014 when I lost to them in the first round of the playoffs, they seem to have really fallen off and not been able to beat the upper tier teams in the region. Is this an issue with DeWall? I am curious to hear the thoughts of the fans on the last few years of struggles getting over the hump.

I guess both Union and RPI are not upper tier teams .....we only just beat them both last year(oops edit we beat RPI 2 years ago and lost to them at RPI by 3 last year), and have a good track record with the historic LL members over the last 10 years. While we do have issues beating Ithaca at Buttercup Field,, it's comments like this that make me wish we voted in St.John Fisher or Alfred as full LL members that would have been more grateful for escaping the E8. There, I have it off my chest and feel totally fine now.
  It is true that before Coach Cragg( Cragg was a kick ass take no prisoners type) resigned as HC to head up the Athletic  department development staff and Coach DeWall(a total gentleman and Hobart grad) took over we have not won a LL title, but the record is not too shabby. We compete with a pure Liberal Arts curriculum, that I believe hurts us in recruiting these days ( Business seems to be a favorite major for male athletes, and Hobart  offers Economics) We have added an Entrepreneurship/ Management Major and Masters program, that seems to have helped the more career focused generation, instead of mine that would have studied anything to stay out of the draft and risked being killed in the jungles of Viet Nam. 
   See you next year at the Boz where we will try to snap the ball better and not give you the game

Yeah, Hobart has been just fine since 2014.  Here are the program win percentages for 2015-2022:

Hobart - .726
RPI - .725
Ithaca - .684
Union - .600* (includes Audino 0-10 nosedive season)

And here are the number of LL title/playoff bids:

RPI - 3
Hobart - 1
Ithaca - 1
SLU - 1
Union - 1

Hobart has actually been the most consistent team in the LL.  And so while it's true it's been a while they won the league, I think part of that is just a function of having four very strong teams year after year; you kind of have to wait for your "turn" to run that gauntlet better that the others any given year.

It is interesting to think about whether the LL is too "stacked" for its teams' own good, particularly in the age of so few Pool C bids. That's especially true if you look at recent trends - over the last four full seasons, the Big Four are a combined 133-42, for a combined win percentage of .760.  (This year it is likely to be .833!)  I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty confident that NO OTHER LEAGUE has four teams with a better winning percentage over that stretch.  (For comparison, the best four in the WIAC over that period - UWW, UWL, UWO and UWRF - have a .702 winning percentage.)

I think the pool C issue for the LL will change when teams break that top tier nationally.  Ithaca, RPI and Union the last three years simply didn't come close enough to the top tier for the LL to get the benefit of the doubt.  Hopefully that changes this year or next....

[Machiavelli]

I know it's a long way off with RPI's schedule over the next few weeks, but I have a hard time believing a 9-1 RPI or 9-1 Union don't have a very solid chance at a Pool C. Union might have the statistical edge with the Springfield Win, but RPIs win over Dickinson doesn't look too shabby right now, and who knows, maybe they can put a scare into Johnny Hopkins.

I would love to think RPI's postseason success might give them some subjective edge if they finish 9-1. Maybe not, but I still have a hard time believing 9-1 doesn't get one of them in.

[Oline89]

Very late to the party here but busy weekend for ICAlum as my sister got married on Saturday in Hobartville (Geneva... beautiful place for a wedding if I might add).

I didn't get to watch much of the IC game because of ceremonies but did shell out the $6 to watch some of the first half (interesting strategy from Rochester but a discussion for the offseason). I forget who said it over the weekend but I believe they were correct about getting the new QB comfortable throwing early in the game. As a freshman that is a tough spot so he will only get more comfortable and it looks like has a strong arm so stretching the ball vertically to Deumaga hopefully becomes more of a part of the game plan. That IC defense is elite and JLO is a bonafied stud. He should be LL OPOY and I think should be a serious AA candidate.

Credit to Rochester for playing tough and that program is building. The LL continues to be the toughest league in the northeast and excited for future matchups. Hopefully the next two weeks the Bombers are able to build a lead and get the QB some confidence throwing the ball heading into Cortaca and the playoffs.

I do have a question for the Hobart fans here, what seems to be the issue with the Statesmen? Since 2014 when I lost to them in the first round of the playoffs, they seem to have really fallen off and not been able to beat the upper tier teams in the region. Is this an issue with DeWall? I am curious to hear the thoughts of the fans on the last few years of struggles getting over the hump.

I guess both Union and RPI are not upper tier teams .....we only just beat them both last year(oops edit we beat RPI 2 years ago and lost to them at RPI by 3 last year), and have a good track record with the historic LL members over the last 10 years. While we do have issues beating Ithaca at Buttercup Field,, it's comments like this that make me wish we voted in St.John Fisher or Alfred as full LL members that would have been more grateful for escaping the E8. There, I have it off my chest and feel totally fine now.
  It is true that before Coach Cragg( Cragg was a kick ass take no prisoners type) resigned as HC to head up the Athletic  department development staff and Coach DeWall(a total gentleman and Hobart grad) took over we have not won a LL title, but the record is not too shabby. We compete with a pure Liberal Arts curriculum, that I believe hurts us in recruiting these days ( Business seems to be a favorite major for male athletes, and Hobart  offers Economics) We have added an Entrepreneurship/ Management Major and Masters program, that seems to have helped the more career focused generation, instead of mine that would have studied anything to stay out of the draft and risked being killed in the jungles of Viet Nam. 
   See you next year at the Boz where we will try to snap the ball better and not give you the game

I certainly didn't want my questions about the Hobart D front to intimate that they aren't still a top tier team in D3, just felt like the Defensive scheme was a little one dimensional for the power offenses of the LL.  The staff does a great job recruiting and putting bigtime athletes all over the field.  Being  a small liberal arts college certainly is a disadvantage when comparing to bigger schools (doesn't Ithaca have close to 7000 students? Hobart is around 2400). 

[Jonny Utah]

Ithaca has less than 5,000 now but does have some grad programs that give them an advantage.  But Hobart is a nationally ranked liberal arts college while Ithaca is a regional one.  Hobart can recruit the 440 million in the US while Ithaca can recruit the 60 million in the northeast.  Huge advantage for Hobart there.....

I don't think the size of the school matters much in general.  Ithaca has the advantage of good football history, support from administration, a big game that attracts 15k each year (and 40k/45k two other years), good academics, generally solid financial aid packages and the best d3 boards alumni in the world.....

[unionpalooza]

Ithaca has less than 5,000 now but does have some grad programs that give them an advantage.  But Hobart is a nationally ranked liberal arts college while Ithaca is a regional one.  Hobart can recruit the 440 million in the US while Ithaca can recruit the 60 million in the northeast.  Huge advantage for Hobart there.....

I don't think the size of the school matters much in general.  Ithaca has the advantage of good football history, support from administration, a big game that attracts 15k each year (and 40k/45k two other years), good academics, generally solid financial aid packages and the best d3 boards alumni in the world.....

I think size makes a difference at the margins.  A 5,000+ school is much more likely to offer a wider range of majors that appeal to athletes (sports management, etc.), and you can basically admit anyone without messing with your USNWR averages.  And in the era of COVID fifth years, having grad programs is a huge plus.  With that said, NCC has done alright with just 1900 students.

[Jonny Utah]

Ithaca has less than 5,000 now but does have some grad programs that give them an advantage.  But Hobart is a nationally ranked liberal arts college while Ithaca is a regional one.  Hobart can recruit the 440 million in the US while Ithaca can recruit the 60 million in the northeast.  Huge advantage for Hobart there.....

I don't think the size of the school matters much in general.  Ithaca has the advantage of good football history, support from administration, a big game that attracts 15k each year (and 40k/45k two other years), good academics, generally solid financial aid packages and the best d3 boards alumni in the world.....

I think size makes a difference at the margins.  A 5,000+ school is much more likely to offer a wider range of majors that appeal to athletes (sports management, etc.), and you can basically admit anyone without messing with your USNWR averages.  And in the era of COVID fifth years, having grad programs is a huge plus.  With that said, NCC has done alright with just 1900 students.

Mt. Union has less than 2,000 too.  I don't think school size helps football programs.  Football history and support is #1 with support being #1 by far.  And in the northeast, wealth is associated with football in many areas.  Take a look at Unions or your average Nescac/LL roster..  Great high schools with great football teams.  Many of these players come from high schools where tuitions are close to the colleges they attend, and these are their best players.

[Jonny Utah]

Region 2 enrollment and top 25 rankings:

JHU- 6,000 ranked #8
Susquehanna- 2,240 ranked #11
Ithaca- 5,500 ranked #15
Cortland-6,200 ranked #16
Mulenberg-2,190 ranked #21
Grove City- 2,509 ranked #22

kinda varied but I would agree it has to be difficult for a place with 2,000 to fill a proper roster with 100 student athletes.  That's 10% of the school.