FB: Liberty League

[mattvsmith]

it was only a matter of time.....what a joke. Chrysler is like the fat ugly hooker who just contracted a deadly, non-curable, contaigous disease...now there's REALLY no use for her so put her out of her misery. A $4billion trip to the clinic ain't gonna fix this one.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090217/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_bailout_37

How's this...if the gov't is so intent on trying to throw our money at stuff, instead of throwing $4b at a bottomless pit, why not take $2b and give each of the 30,000 displaced workers a $60,000 severance, or pay them $5k/ month (tax-free) for up to 12 months or until they get a job, whichever comes first. Better then a sharp stick in the eye. Then use the other $2b on small business grants, subsidies, and other programs to stimulate new business rather then the decrepit auto industry that is over-capacity.

After first glance at that article and seeing the pictures, are these clowns STILL building Trucks?  Here's an idea, why not sell the 3 years of inventory still sitting on your lots? 

And furthermore, cars for that matter.....why don't they just build to order and carry just enough stock at the dealerships to demo one of each model?
Why continue building inventory??  I don't get it!!!

RT said it pretty well with the words "over capacity".  GM just can't stop making cars. They have too much production capability and they are basically running a welfare program for their labor and suppliers.  They don't need workers--yet can't lay them off.  They don't need more materials, yet they have to buy them because they have to keep those unnecessary works somewhat busy.

These autoworkers are making more than The Rev to do nothing but play cards and build crappy cars that no one wants.  They complain that they can't afford to buy the cars they manufacture. Newsflash: neither can The Rev.  The cars are so expensive because we're paying guys $50/hour to sit on their asses and collect overtime when they aren't even needed for a full 40.

The Rev hates labor unions even more than the guys who have mis-managed the company.

The Rev sez: free market means the freedom to fail when you do pisspoor work.

[Senor RedTackle]

Some quick math, last November GM sold 154,877 vehicles and they have about 7,000 dealers, that would equal each dealer selling approximately 22 new vehicles in the month, far less than one per day. (the 154,877 is total, including fleet) Looks like some dealers may only be selling one or two new GM vehicles per week. (actually I didnt figure that out, I just googled "gm vehicles sold")

With a capacity of probably 4X that number (ahhh yes, that wonderful housing market), I see no reason they couldn't fulfill the entire month of sold vehicles in a week.  Another way to look at it would be they can keep up with capacity with 1/4 the amount "stuff" (manpower, factories)

With that being said, demand will not be there, no matter WHAT product they put out for a long time. (give or take 10%) Plus, with the other competition, who is going to pay more than cost for these things?  I can't imagine dealers making much on a new car they sell or the factory even turning positive numbers on the balance sheet.

Even the LLPP knows that you wouldn't run a business that doesn't put cash in your pocket at the end of the day!

correct reg...pbr's family owns a new car dealership, there was a feeling for a long time that people made alot of money off selling new cars...not true in reality most money is made off of service...also w/ the internet everyone found out easily what dealers paid for a car and cut right to the chase w/ car shopping and took lots of profit out of it. there is more wiggle room in more expensive cars i.e. porsche and ferrari but very little wiggle room in your fords/gm etc...

PBR-
The interweb ruined alot of things for small businesses (I consider a car dealership a small business).
I can go online, find 50 of the exact car and configuration I am looking for, and buy whatever one I want with the same warranty and all.  The only thing I need to account for is the $300-700 bucks it costs for shipping.

What that means for the dealers is that for every person looking for a car, it is an auction to get to their lowest price. (plus now, you have to throw in the Certified Pre-Owned BS.)  This is a no win situation for Brick and Motar establishments, unless service far exceeds the new car sales.

Besides service, I don't know how these types of businesses stay at it. (You can lump any good commercially available on the internet into that statement)

Then are we left to car reviewers like Consumer Reports in lieu of a test drive?  JT uses reviews, but after that its how car handles and feels to JT that make the sale.

Read PBR's reply.  What is to stop anyone from going to test drive a Chevy Malibu at their local dealer in Chicago, which is priced at $23,500, falling in love with it, then buy the exact same car from Texas or something and have it shipped.

Rinse and repeat for anything really-
Digital Camera
Computer
Fork Lift
Little League catchers mitt

As far as my comment about brick and motar, do I really need a 5 acre car lot with a "world class" product showroom in order to house 5 cars?....you know what....I'd rather rent retail space in a mall, keep my 5-10 models there, then have a handful of demo cars out back.  It's inventory that is killing all these dealers!....no inventory, no problem.

You see, you drive, you like, you buy.  Since my overhead is low, you buy from me since my pricing should be the least inexpensive.  While I am at it, I am going to take deals away from those "big bad dealerships" that have all the lots full of cool cars by pricing myself 5% below them on any given model, with the only hitch being that they need to wait a couple weeks for there new whip. (actually, what I'd probably do is just wholesale the car from a local deal anyway, since they are sitting on tons of inventory)

Anyone that knows how to work a computer can list a car on ebay or autotrader, for $25k a year, you can pay someone to answer the phone and emails.

RT tends to believe the huge showroom is an extension of the big service department...which is intended to convey a perception of quality and workmanship to the public to entice them to use that dealership. It would seem to be pretty common knowledge that a dealership's money for the last 15 or more years comes from service (as PBR mentioned earlier)..not surprising when they are charging anywhere from $70-$100/hr depending on location (and paying labor $20/hr) as well as using parts at 50% markup. It's a lot more subjective to try to dig into services pricing because it's not apples-to-apples such as shopping for the exact same car from 5 different dealers.

The concept of "service" is true to it's name in that it's something that we are naturally more more discriminating about. RT will pay more and have loyalty to dealer's service department if they do a good job and are convenient for RT. The flip side, however, is that RT hasn't had to have alot of work done on his rides plus most cars are plug-n-play into some computer nowadays for diagnosis and the notion of the "expert mechanic" from years ago has gone the way of the dodo bird. Any kind of classic car that someone would own requiring that kind of mechanic would go to an independent garage anyway and not the local big dealer....so now RT isn't sure anymore how much difference there is in service dealerships other then proximity to one's house.

Circling back to the topic from other posts....how can it not be obvious to most people with a high school education that the automotive industry is a pure case of economics? Demand was such during the boom years of 50's-80's where people were acquiring wealth and a big infrastructure of roads were being built that necessitated most every family outside of large urban areas owning at least one car...and pretty much the only cars being sold in America were made in America so there was room for everyone and the right mix of supply and demand kept the fire burning. Throw in the fact that cars didn't last as long so you had a cycle that sustained itself for a couple of generations.  Then capitalism and free trade take over as other countries (ie Japan and to a lesser extent Germany, Scandavia) start building cars cheaper and better and the American public takes an interest. Oh, and let's not forget the intrigue that middle eastern oil throws into gas prices and next thing you know, the American auto industry starts to decline in the mid/late 1970's...subtly at first but really aggressively in the 1980s. People in the US get distracted in the 1990s as SUVs keep the American auto industry on life support but then the Middle East effect rears its ugly head and next thing you know we're fighting wars in the desert to secure that oil lifeline.  America's capitalistic culture is based on jobs for the population that provide enough wealth for the working class to pump back into society. Unfortunately, the million or more people employed across the auto industry and it's side businesses never wanted to face the reality and eventuality that technology and capitalism are intertwined...this isn't like working at the post office. These companies have to make a profit and it's about supply & demand.  The US has run its course in this area.....

[Senor RedTackle]

it was only a matter of time.....what a joke. Chrysler is like the fat ugly hooker who just contracted a deadly, non-curable, contaigous disease...now there's REALLY no use for her so put her out of her misery. A $4billion trip to the clinic ain't gonna fix this one.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090217/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_bailout_37

How's this...if the gov't is so intent on trying to throw our money at stuff, instead of throwing $4b at a bottomless pit, why not take $2b and give each of the 30,000 displaced workers a $60,000 severance, or pay them $5k/ month (tax-free) for up to 12 months or until they get a job, whichever comes first. Better then a sharp stick in the eye. Then use the other $2b on small business grants, subsidies, and other programs to stimulate new business rather then the decrepit auto industry that is over-capacity.

After first glance at that article and seeing the pictures, are these clowns STILL building Trucks?  Here's an idea, why not sell the 3 years of inventory still sitting on your lots? 

And furthermore, cars for that matter.....why don't they just build to order and carry just enough stock at the dealerships to demo one of each model?
Why continue building inventory??  I don't get it!!!

That is the way you used to buy a car.  You went to the dealer and they had one or two fully loaded models for Demos and maybe a couple of baseline cars also.  You checked out the demos, then looked in the catalog and selected only the options you wanted and then 6 to 8 weeks later you had a new car, in a color you chose, interior you chose and options you wanted. 

KS was talking to someone he went to HS with last weekend.  His family has owned a Ford dealership for over 50 years.  They are not buying new stock for 09, they are selling off inventory and working with other dealers to find cars for people.  They figure it is better to stay in business this way then to do it the way Ford wants them to.

This is exactly how RT remembers going to "buy" a car w/ his dad when RT was a kid in the late 70s and early 80s....RT remembers what a huge deal it was when Papa RT actually bought a car from the lot b/c he got such a great deal on it...

If you were going to buy off the lot it always paid to buy in October or November back in the day.  The dealers wanted the old demos and stock off the lot before the new models really started coming in.

KS dad bought a 72 Maverick for Mom KS in late 72, the car was loaded with just about everything but AC and listed for around 2700.00, dad KS got it for 1550.00 with about 4K miles on it.  Dad was proud of that deal, better than the one he got on the 72 Gran Torino wagon.  KS learned to drive on the Gran Torino, what a boat, KS loved that car.

Great flick!

[Knightstalker]

it was only a matter of time.....what a joke. Chrysler is like the fat ugly hooker who just contracted a deadly, non-curable, contaigous disease...now there's REALLY no use for her so put her out of her misery. A $4billion trip to the clinic ain't gonna fix this one.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090217/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_bailout_37

How's this...if the gov't is so intent on trying to throw our money at stuff, instead of throwing $4b at a bottomless pit, why not take $2b and give each of the 30,000 displaced workers a $60,000 severance, or pay them $5k/ month (tax-free) for up to 12 months or until they get a job, whichever comes first. Better then a sharp stick in the eye. Then use the other $2b on small business grants, subsidies, and other programs to stimulate new business rather then the decrepit auto industry that is over-capacity.

After first glance at that article and seeing the pictures, are these clowns STILL building Trucks?  Here's an idea, why not sell the 3 years of inventory still sitting on your lots? 

And furthermore, cars for that matter.....why don't they just build to order and carry just enough stock at the dealerships to demo one of each model?
Why continue building inventory??  I don't get it!!!

That is the way you used to buy a car.  You went to the dealer and they had one or two fully loaded models for Demos and maybe a couple of baseline cars also.  You checked out the demos, then looked in the catalog and selected only the options you wanted and then 6 to 8 weeks later you had a new car, in a color you chose, interior you chose and options you wanted. 

KS was talking to someone he went to HS with last weekend.  His family has owned a Ford dealership for over 50 years.  They are not buying new stock for 09, they are selling off inventory and working with other dealers to find cars for people.  They figure it is better to stay in business this way then to do it the way Ford wants them to.

This is exactly how RT remembers going to "buy" a car w/ his dad when RT was a kid in the late 70s and early 80s....RT remembers what a huge deal it was when Papa RT actually bought a car from the lot b/c he got such a great deal on it...

If you were going to buy off the lot it always paid to buy in October or November back in the day.  The dealers wanted the old demos and stock off the lot before the new models really started coming in.

KS dad bought a 72 Maverick for Mom KS in late 72, the car was loaded with just about everything but AC and listed for around 2700.00, dad KS got it for 1550.00 with about 4K miles on it.  Dad was proud of that deal, better than the one he got on the 72 Gran Torino wagon.  KS learned to drive on the Gran Torino, what a boat, KS loved that car.

Great flick!

KS co-worker told him that.  KS is planning to go see it this weekend or next.

[lewdogg11]

[Knightstalker]

Former Giant great Brad Van Pelt passed away.


One of the best linebacking crews ever, Carson, Kelly, Taylor and Van Pelt.

[JT]

it was only a matter of time.....what a joke. Chrysler is like the fat ugly hooker who just contracted a deadly, non-curable, contaigous disease...now there's REALLY no use for her so put her out of her misery. A $4billion trip to the clinic ain't gonna fix this one.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090217/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_bailout_37

How's this...if the gov't is so intent on trying to throw our money at stuff, instead of throwing $4b at a bottomless pit, why not take $2b and give each of the 30,000 displaced workers a $60,000 severance, or pay them $5k/ month (tax-free) for up to 12 months or until they get a job, whichever comes first. Better then a sharp stick in the eye. Then use the other $2b on small business grants, subsidies, and other programs to stimulate new business rather then the decrepit auto industry that is over-capacity.

After first glance at that article and seeing the pictures, are these clowns STILL building Trucks?  Here's an idea, why not sell the 3 years of inventory still sitting on your lots? 

And furthermore, cars for that matter.....why don't they just build to order and carry just enough stock at the dealerships to demo one of each model?
Why continue building inventory??  I don't get it!!!

That is the way you used to buy a car.  You went to the dealer and they had one or two fully loaded models for Demos and maybe a couple of baseline cars also.  You checked out the demos, then looked in the catalog and selected only the options you wanted and then 6 to 8 weeks later you had a new car, in a color you chose, interior you chose and options you wanted. 

KS was talking to someone he went to HS with last weekend.  His family has owned a Ford dealership for over 50 years.  They are not buying new stock for 09, they are selling off inventory and working with other dealers to find cars for people.  They figure it is better to stay in business this way then to do it the way Ford wants them to.

This is exactly how RT remembers going to "buy" a car w/ his dad when RT was a kid in the late 70s and early 80s....RT remembers what a huge deal it was when Papa RT actually bought a car from the lot b/c he got such a great deal on it...

If you were going to buy off the lot it always paid to buy in October or November back in the day.  The dealers wanted the old demos and stock off the lot before the new models really started coming in.

KS dad bought a 72 Maverick for Mom KS in late 72, the car was loaded with just about everything but AC and listed for around 2700.00, dad KS got it for 1550.00 with about 4K miles on it.  Dad was proud of that deal, better than the one he got on the 72 Gran Torino wagon.  KS learned to drive on the Gran Torino, what a boat, KS loved that car.

Great flick!

KS co-worker told him that.  KS is planning to go see it this weekend or next.

JT concurs. Reminds JT of many former soldiers he's know in his lifetime.

[mattvsmith]

Then are we left to car reviewers like Consumer Reports in lieu of a test drive?  JT uses reviews, but after that its how car handles and feels to JT that make the sale.

The Rev recommends renting a car rather than test driving.  A test drive doesn't give an accurate assessment.  Rent a car for a week (or at least a weekend) and you'll know what you like/dislike about it much, much better because you'll test it the way you would actually use it. Piling kids in, going to the supermarket, a couple kegs, etc.

[SaintsFAN]

The Rev sez: free market means the freedom to fail when you do pisspoor work.

Rev,

Amen... +10K from SF, starting today.  SF agrees with the statement about unions being a big, big problem.  In order for this country to be great again, many things need to change -- less Union influence being one of them.  Probably won't happen, though, Union is too powerful in today's political world with lobbyists etc. 

+K to all LLPP'ers. 

[Knightstalker]

Then are we left to car reviewers like Consumer Reports in lieu of a test drive?  JT uses reviews, but after that its how car handles and feels to JT that make the sale.

The Rev recommends renting a car rather than test driving.  A test drive doesn't give an accurate assessment.  Rent a car for a week (or at least a weekend) and you'll know what you like/dislike about it much, much better because you'll test it the way you would actually use it. Piling kids in, going to the supermarket, a couple kegs, etc.

Kind of how dad KS settled on the Gran Torino wagon.  KS Dad was friends with a local Ford dealer.  They met because my oldest brother and the dealers kid were in scouts together.  KS family had a Volkswagon Micro Bus at the time, the engine kept swallowing intake valves.  Car broke down, KS brothers troop was going camping, dad called Ralph, Ralph told dad he would come by with a loner, he brought Gran Torino wagon, Dad loaded a boatload of scouts, equipment and food into the wagon no problem.  He fell in love with the car and decided to fix the VW and trade it in.  Dad KS wouldn't buy a car from anyone else until Ralph retired and his son did not want to take over the business so they sold it.

['gro]

While gro agrees with LD on the awesomeness of the subject... might as well throw in 2 pennies on the pile.

the best way is to have the "custom built" sales model like reg is preaching. Let the market pull the production, not the manufacturers or dealerships push ish out of the factory. In the long run, it streamlines the manufacturing facility, the parts suppliers, dealers, and the customers get what they want.

boo bam, you've just been enginegro'd. Now can we get LLPP back to normal?

Tramp stamp, or no tramp stamp?

['gro]

Where's Union89? Fine, I'll say it for him.

Drive a Volvo, baby.

[Touchdown Tommy]

Ferrari,

Please provide link to your family's dealership.  You have piqued TDT's curiosity.

[union89]

LD11 tries to read today's LLPP...

Cars....blah, blah blah, blah......GM....blah, blah, blah, blah.......Saturn......Blah, blah, blah.......

[union89]

since we are all athletes here did anyone ever see anything like this happen in a sport while you were participating...talk about giving it everything u had!!

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3302/1212416323035ew3.jpg

Back in the mid-80's, Union used to routinely beat the crap out of RPI, but U89 never actually saw the 'crap'......