FB: Liberty League

[pumkinattack]

On a separate note, that I think some of you guys would find interesting, Tyler Vincent had a busted punt play (e.g. not designed) that he didn't convert to a first down.  It was the first time in his career he didn't convert on a fake punt play out of a ton of attempts over the last few years.  Pretty interesting, I thought.

[union89]

Well then I guess we can just agree to disagree and wait and see what happens come playoff time.  I know I can't win this discussion otherwise.

I never said you didn't have some good points.  It's just the negative tone that sort of propelled me into this discussion in the first place.  It always bugs me when you and U89 bash your own schools' teams.  It REALLY bugs me when it happens in a year that those teams are enjoying a certain level of respect and success.  

I hear what you are saying....I expect better performances from Union for the talent they have.

If I can speak for LD here, you frustrate us in that you make excuses for poor performances.  If a team does not play to potential, they should be questioned....you seem to try to look for outside reasons why the team underachieves.  Look at the players and staff....your answers could be right there.

You mention WPI and Coach Zaloom losing to RPI & Union early in the season, then their season falling apart the past few years.  Can we not look at that as poor coaching?  If this result has happened repeatedly and WPI has folded their tent for the remainder of the season, Zaloom is responsible for figuring out a way to overcome this repeated stumbling block.

[Frank Rossi]

On a separate note, that I think some of you guys would find interesting, Tyler Vincent had a busted punt play (e.g. not designed) that he didn't convert to a first down.  It was the first time in his career he didn't convert on a fake punt play out of a ton of attempts over the last few years.  Pretty interesting, I thought.

He didn't convert at Union this year, though, on his second attempt (pure run... drew a holding call, but it was declined since he was a few yards short of the first down).

[pumkinattack]

You're right.  Shoot.  I was parroting what Ted Baker said at the game yesterday.  I wonder how off he was on that comment, but not motivated enough to go through all of it. 

[redswarm81]

Well, it's four or five on three, but it's an interesting comparison.  No doubt that every league has poor teams at the bottom.  The E8, blah blah blah . . . .  The depth issue, IMO, blah blah blah . . . .  WPI and UofR haven't finished above 3rd in the league ever.  Hasn't the OAC . . . blah blah blah . . . in the past?  

Blah blah blah . . .

This is why I find the ECAC games so compelling.  

So how do WPI, SLU, UofR, MMA (and CGA, for that matter) compare to WestConn, Buffalo St., and Morrisville St?

My best guess is that U of R is better, the others are roughly the same and CGA is worse.  But again, I don't define league strength looking at the top and bottom, barbell style.  I think conference strength is defined by the middle teams relative strength and that's where I don't see the parity, upward mobility (SSQ I'm calling an anomoly in a down year for the conference).  

If you want to define league strength by those at the bottom, fine, but where's the mobility and where's the OOC wins?  This season isn't unique in that the 3rd place and 4th place teams can lose to the bottom, it's just that RPI and Hobart are those 3rd and 4th place teams instead of UofR/RPI/Union voer the past 5-6 (this isn't a jab, Hobart's literally been in the top 2 every year since the formation of the LL until this year).  

I don't see how anyone can reasonably put WestConn, Buffalo St., and Mo'ville St. on a par with even the worst of the LL (however you define that).  I think only CGA this year would be at any kind of risk to losing a game v. any of those three sad sack teams.  (And that's a mystery to me as well--with its national recruiting base and loyal alumni who pack its stadium for home games, I don't understand why CGA isn't better year after year.  Maybe I'm still star-struck from the days when their Athletic Director was Otto Freaking Graham.)

I don't want to define league strength (just) by those at the bottom.  However, I do want to measure league strength top to bottom.  Doing so requires that the bottom teams be considered, as well as the top teams.  IMO, there is no suck in the Liberty League in the same class of suck as the NJAC bottom dwelling suck.  I think I even have some pretty solid evidence to back up that opinion--just look at WestConn's, Buffalo St.'s, and Mo'ville St.'s records, and compare them to the worst teams in the Liberty League.

[pumkinattack]

Maybe they are worse, but I don't know (I said guess).  With only one OOC game, it's a more closed loop than we have.  I think UofR is decent, but they've been taken to the woodshed a couple of times, I'm starting to think WPI is suspect after seeing that the large majority of their wins over the last 5-6 years came via NEFC competition (and not Curry or Plymouth State or whoever the second best team is).  MMA and SLU I think are on par with any conference's worst.   Hackett's not all that and they've always had poor OL/QB play (not sure which to blame so I'll lump it together). 

But, I've answered your question.  What about mine, since that should also matter when looking at top to bottom.  What about that middle slice?

[Frank Rossi]

I hear what you are saying....I expect better performances from Union for the talent they have.

I understand this -- and I think even the Union players and coaches "expect" better right now.  But with the exception of:  (1)  a close game against a very talented out-of-region opponent; and (2) a loss in which the defense played well, the team experienced three major injuries and the quarterback didn't know if he was in Pennsylvania or Transylvania after a hard hit he took in the second half, Union has used their talent at the end of games to win.  We all want more consistency.  

Next weekend would be a great time for that to be shown -- although, let's face it, King's Point has an extra week of prep time and will host Union at the weird start time of 2:30pm in Long Island.  It could be an interesting game for the U... and I think we're all hoping, with the exception of Mike Toop and his team, that Union puts up 35 points for once.

If I can speak for LD here, you frustrate us in that you make excuses for poor performances.  If a team does not play to potential, they should be questioned....you seem to try to look for outside reasons why the team underachieves.  Look at the players and staff....your answers could be right there.

Questioned, yes.  Bashed, no.  People have even come to me asking why that U89 guy is always bashing the team on the message boards.  I always say here that you have to remember to accentuate the positive in these remarks so that you can look knowledgable, balanced and fair.  Players and coaches read these boards -- be constructive with your own teams, not destructive.  

Remember, I'm the guy on "In the HuddLLe" after the Ithaca win that said, "Union does not deserve a Top 25 ranking yet."  I've said my fair share of things that would denote my own frustrations and concerns about this year's team.  I harped yesterday on the air about Connolly's 6 INTs in two weeks and the team's -10 turnover ratio.  I questioned the intentional safety decision when up by 7 points.  So, while I look to you sometimes like I'm trying to be the homer of homers, I think most people who know my full body of work and comments would tell you that I'm as critical as anyone about the team's performance week to week.  And I'm not fair-weathered about it... I've been there for .500 seasons and a 1.000 season.  I still react accordingly.

You mention WPI and Coach Zaloom losing to RPI & Union early in the season, then their season falling apart the past few years.  Can we not look at that as poor coaching?  If this result has happened repeatedly and WPI has folded their tent for the remainder of the season, Zaloom is responsible for figuring out a way to overcome this repeated stumbling block.

I think by all accounts, he's played RPI very well the last 3 years, with the exception of 2008 maybe.  He beat Union last year and nearly did it again this year.  Based on my interactions with the team, their fans and others around the program, the view is that Zaloom is the right fit for that team based on the fact that WPI's location makes recruiting a tough thing and a lot of players come based on Zaloom's style, demeanor and care for his players.  He's a mentor and motivator as much as a coach.  To me, it's like blaming Bobby Bowden for FSU's problems -- FSU wouldn't get the players it gets to a certain degree if not for Bowden's presence.  Sometimes, talent or the season in general does not pan out.  Yet, wouldn't the season have been even worse if the talent didn't come to that team in the first place?  

2008 was a good year for WPI.  2009 was not so far.  Does that make Zaloom a bad coach?  No.  It just means that, as you suggest, he has to go back to the drawing board to figure out how to deal with this same scenario next year.  

[redswarm81]

I never said you didn't have some good points.  It's just the negative tone that sort of propelled me into this discussion in the first place.  It always bugs me when you and U89 bash your own schools' teams.  It REALLY bugs me when it happens in a year that those teams are enjoying a certain level of respect and success.  

You mention WPI and Coach Zaloom losing to RPI & Union early in the season, then their season falling apart the past few years.  Can we not look at that as poor coaching?  If this result has happened repeatedly and WPI has folded their tent for the remainder of the season, Zaloom is responsible for figuring out a way to overcome this repeated stumbling block.

This is another point of the Tank's that I think is well taken.  WPI has to know going in that its two toughest games are likely to be RPI and Union.  Good coaching requires that the team be better prepared for those two games than for any others (to the extent that there's any variability in preparedness, which might be an interesting topic for a different OCDish thread).  WPI has to invest more into preparing for those two games than it invests in its early, OoC schedule, certainly.

I don't know how coaching can completely overcome the damage done to a team's psychology when they play their best game (so far over their heads that their noses bleed for a week to ten days) and lose--twice, in consecutive weeks even.

[Jonny Utah]

Just kind of wondering how WPI's location makes recruiting a tough thing.  Holy Cross hasn't had too much trouble.

[Frank Rossi]

Just kind of wondering how WPI's location makes recruiting a tough thing.  Holy Cross hasn't had too much trouble.

There are a lot of D3 football schools in that New England zone -- and the issue for WPI is that the talent in that area doesn't always want to come to a school that might not ever get to the playoffs.  Plus, WPI is not a pushover school academically, making the admissions process a tougher problem than that of many other New England D3 schools.  Finally, it is tough for WPI to pull student from other states, especially football players from, say, New York since there are so many prolific D3 schools in New York already from which those players can choose.

[pumkinattack]

WPI has to know going in that its two toughest games are likely to be RPI and Union.  Good coaching requires that the team be better prepared for those two games than for any others (to the extent that there's any variability in preparedness, which might be an interesting topic for a different OCDish thread).  WPI has to invest more into preparing for those two games than it invests in its early, OoC schedule, certainly.

I don't know how coaching can completely overcome the damage done to a team's psychology when they play their best game (so far over their heads that their noses bleed for a week to ten days) and lose--twice, in consecutive weeks even.

Obviously I'd take exception to this.  Hobart, which has been both an early and midseason conference game is just as important and they're 0-6.  

As to your second point, Hobart lost to RPI in 2007 in an action packed battle between Robertson and Strom that went down to the wire, it looked like they were done at 1-2 (lost in OT to Dickinson), but came back to win 7 in a row including a thrashing of a pretty good Alfred team and beating Union, so the excuse that losing a tough, key conference game early ruins a season is pretty suspect.  Also, RPI has had a number of strong finishes after losing to Hobart early in the year.  Is two in a row different?  Maybe, but character goes a long way and one way or another the coach is supposed to modl the character of the guys he recuits and mentors, so the responsibility still falls on the coach.  

[redswarm81]

Maybe they are worse, but I don't know (I said guess).  With only one OOC game, it's a more closed loop than we have.  I think UofR is decent, but they've been taken to the woodshed a couple of times, I'm starting to think WPI is suspect after seeing that the large majority of their wins over the last 5-6 years came via NEFC competition (and not Curry or Plymouth State or whoever the second best team is).  MMA and SLU I think are on par with any conference's worst.   Hackett's not all that and they've always had poor OL/QB play (not sure which to blame so I'll lump it together). 

But, I've answered your question.  What about mine, since that should also matter when looking at top to bottom.  What about that middle slice?

You haven't said so, but you disagree with my contention that the NJAC's worst are orders of magnitude worse than almost any other conference's worst.  I'd be curious to know what the NJAC people would say about that.

The NJAC has historically been difficult to gauge, with surprises such as upstart William Paterson teams knocking off Rowan dynasty teams, and generally teams coming out of mediocre-to-nowhere to beat top teams.  But in the 21st Century, WestConn, Buffalo St., and Mo'ville St. have steadily sucked along the bottom.

I'll have to look at your question again and think about it.  The concept of a NJAC "middle" is a difficult one for me to grasp, what with its history as mentioned above.

[dlippiel]

Maybe they are worse, but I don't know (I said guess).  With only one OOC game, it's a more closed loop than we have.  I think UofR is decent, but they've been taken to the woodshed a couple of times, I'm starting to think WPI is suspect after seeing that the large majority of their wins over the last 5-6 years came via NEFC competition (and not Curry or Plymouth State or whoever the second best team is).  MMA and SLU I think are on par with any conference's worst.   Hackett's not all that and they've always had poor OL/QB play (not sure which to blame so I'll lump it together). 

But, I've answered your question.  What about mine, since that should also matter when looking at top to bottom.  What about that middle slice?

Just a question here: sometimes many of us tend to look at players and feel they are very very talented athletes and football players. We do this, rightfully so, because we get to know these players, witness their personal and team development over their time in school, and see their numbers improve. Yet, when these players and teams play other teams and lose or do not win in the fashion in which we believe they "could" or "should" what does that tell us? Aren't all of the teams' success or lack their of in sports based upon their performance on the field? It really comes down to perspective does it not? dlip is not trying to be the 5 nations peacemaker here but he thinks all of these perspectives shared thus far amount to one conclusion: almost everyone on here ****in loves their respective teams and the ****in LL as a whole! Some of us just see the happenings of the season in different perspectives.

You can support your team by doing the following:
-holding that team to a high standard and appropriately questioning the "goings on" of that team if one feels they are not reaching that standard. *As long as that standard is realistic. Which when looking at the U dlip must admit, believing this team has the ability to dominate most of their opponents week in and week out with the exception of maybe one or to is realistic. As long as one is not overly negative and being a dick towards the team which dlip does not feel anyone really has.
-supporting your team unconditionally and always focusing on the positives no matter what. Keeping a deep belief in that team and allowing time to dictate when that team reaches it's potential. Sometimes dlip believes that this method, even though at times ignoring realities does help a team develop and grow.

*What we have here is differing perspectives on Union and the League as a whole. dlip honestly feels both are appropriate and both represent our love for our teams and league as a whole. These discussions represent the fact that we care which dlip thinks is most important. What we are doing is working through the logisitics and breaking down the sport which we all love.

[pumkinattack]

RS, I've seen some of the atrocious scores with those three and they could be really bad, I don't know, you may be correct.  But what about the bottom of the E6 or MAC for other comparisons.  I don't think we do as well (better than the CC though).  I hate to admit it, but Utica and Hartwick (and maybe IC this year?) as the bottom compares pretty favorably vs. ours and we have a couple of results that bear this out.   

I was comparing the middle couple of teams this year (including Hobart in place of SSQ basically). 

Dlip, your right about this, but it's a very interesting discussion as long as people can be dispassionate (for example, I entered into something that wasn't on the E8 board the other day).  Where do our boys stand vis-a-vis the local, regional and national compeition.  The record is important and can't be ignored, but with a limited number of games, constantly changing variables (home/away, field conditions, health, etc.) there's lots of room for debate.  Nobody wants their team or the league to not succeed, but some think positive reinforcement is the way to improve and others think constructing criticism is the way to go.  I personally think denying a problem leads to worse future outcomes (hence my "bashing" of Hobart's playcalling for a while, I don't think it's an execution problem so much as the wrong style for the personnel, which requires a change).

[union89]

Frank, I understand that people in Shocktown may be frustrated with my comments.....I am entitled to them, everyone within the program knows who I am and I stand by what I say.  You have mentioned my perception a couple times and honestly, it doesn't matter much to me.  I gave the program tons of credit for playing and beating Ithaca this year....the performances have been extremely uneven since then.

Speaking of perceptions, most alums that I speak with, share LD's opinion of you 100%.

Sometimes you have to do what you think is right....I handle the situation the way I do and you handle it your way.