FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

Ok, so after yesterday's debacle, does anyone<cough: Frank> want to defend the strength of the LL or E8 any longer?  Don't say LD didn't predict it.

I figured as much.

Terd, did you happen to look at exactly what happened in the Susquehanna game?  I never defend the E8 -- so that's the job of somebody else.  However, the SUS-DVC game was 10-7 with 5 minutes left in the 2nd quarter.  TD, INT, TD, INT, TD in four minutes sunk Susquehanna, who was hanging well with DVC for most of the first half.

Join us on "In the HuddLLe" tonight to hear us discuss with Gordon Mann just what led to a 66-7 score (mainly, SUS let the sky cave in once the score became insurmountable).  The score was by no means indicative of an entire conference or subregion.  It was a bad four minutes for one team that sunk the ship.

disagree somewhat frank....dvc was gaining huge chunks and moving the ball at will other than a few miscues. there was no doubt from anyone there that it was only a matter of time before dvc started pulling away. you can even check the in game updates on the board here and people listening to gordon call the game were predicting dvc would soon bust this game wide open. pbr was with some susquatch grads and they were calling it at the game as well. In most peoples eyes there was no argument who the better team was...you can say susquehanna had miscues but imho as many others it was a much better team turning it on and taking over a game. 

I take nothing away from DVC in my comments.  The problem I have is giving an entire conference or subregion a "Scarlett Letter" to wear when a #7 seed was hanging with a #2 seed until a tumultuous four minutes.  Could it be that the MAC is one of the power conferences in the country?  SJF beat Cortland yesterday.  Union beat Hartwick yesterday comfortably.  Alfred lost a close one to Albright, the MAC runner up.  Syllogisms are tough to use in these circumstances.  My point is that unless you first declare whether or not the MAC is a power conference, you can't judge how good/bad another conference is in these comparisons.  Was Susquehanna the lesser team?  Yes.  Were they 59 points the lesser team?  No.  Sometimes these results just snowball, and we saw that yesterday.

There is a bit of actual evidence that says the contrary.

Terd, stop being a terd.  You know what I meant by that.

[TheGrove]

+k back at ya, TGP.

By the way, if people prefer the Susquehanna perspective, Jack Burns does a great job for the Crusaders radio.  You can hear him here:

http://www.susqu.edu/orgs/wqsu-fm/stream.html

+k for the Jack Burns - soon-to-be Susquehanna Sports Hall of Famer Jack Burns - love. 

[gordonmann]

For what it's worth, I don't interpret Del Val's margin of victory as an indictment of the entire Liberty League or Upstate NY football in general this year.  If Del Val played at RPI or Union (or Ithaca or SJF), they probably would be favored.  But I wouldn't expect the Aggies to roll over those teams and I don't think it translates into guaranteed victories for, say, Leb Val or St. John Fisher or Albright over RPI.

Yes, Del Val proved to be the better team yesterday day.  But the game clearly snowballed on Susquehanna once their spirit was broken.  I wouldn't read too much more into the fact that Del Val beat SU by 59 than if they beat them by 30, 60 or 360.

Actually this is something worth keeping in mind for whomever goes to Mount Union.  Because whenever someone goes to Mount Union and gets bombed in the playoffs, the conclusion some reach is that the entire East region wouldn't be competitive in the OAC, that their best teams would finish third or fourth worse.  And while Mount Union's dominance is pretty good proof how good Mount Union is, I don't know whether it translates into proof that every OAC team is a juggernaut dwelling in Mount Union's shadow.

I just don't think you can draw comparative conclusions between entire conferences or regions because of isolated lop sided results.

[lewdogg11]

Well, Susquehanna won the LL.  They are usually not very good.  I understand they  were improved this year, but it was obvious as the season went on that the LL was very down this year.  In a chance to show it was just parity in the league as opposed to be 'down', our rep went to the MAC champ and lost by 59. 

I understand people wanting to paint it a different color, but the results clearly speak for themselves. 

[Frank Rossi]

Well, Susquehanna won the LL.  They are usually not very good.  I understand they  were improved this year, but it was obvious as the season went on that the LL was very down this year.  In a chance to show it was just parity in the league as opposed to be 'down', our rep went to the MAC champ and lost by 59. 

I understand people wanting to paint it a different color, but the results clearly speak for themselves. 

Just because your proctologist told you that last week doesn't mean it applies to all scenarios...

[dlippiel]

This is an interesting discussion, one that dlip knew would hit the LLPP once he heard the unfortunate final score of the Del Val game yesterday. First and foremost dlip wants to congratulate Del Val on a solid performance yesterday and doing everything they needed to get themselves into the second round. Coming from an LL perspective this result was very very disappointing to dlip. When he first heard from Frank yesterday that Sus was up 7-3 dlip's ****in grill lit up like a spring time ****in BBQ. Later when he heard Del Val was vibrating the Crusaders dlip honestly felt very down and disappointed. What does this score mean regarding Susquehanna and regarding the LL?

Susquehanna: obviously a much improved team, who each year in the LL struggled but made small gains each year culminating with a title run here in 09 behind a decent young QB and a brick-****-house of a back in Dave Paveletz. If one was to ask dlip honestly if Susquehanna would have won the LL any year besides this one dlip would have to say no. This is meant to take nothing away from Susquehanna, for they were very deserving of their title. Yet in the grand scheme of things the LL just wasn't itself this year in a few ways.

Liberty League: the League dlip loves as does his brethren here on the LLPP. One word that seemed to hit the LL this year was parity. We saw a Susquehanna team, the eventual winner of the LL lose to MMA (yes dlip was aware of the injury), we saw this same team defeat Bart, RPI, and Union This same team also lost to a poor ****in Lycoming team who was only a shadow of themselves this season as compared to 08 when they lost to Bart. SLU couldn't hang with anyone OOC, WPI can only be labeled "dominator of the bottom half of the NEFC", MMA is just MMA, they can hurt you but besides a win of league champ Sus they weren't in the mix, RPI looked like **** against a poor Utica team and lost to a U of R team that was competitive but unable to beat anyone OOC in 09. Bart was clearly rebuilding and searching for its identity throughout 09. They played well and dlip feels they made a lot of progress and gained momentum heading into 2010 but had an early season OOC loss as well as loses to Union and Susquehanna. And as for Union, dlip's beloved Union really told the story of the LL. Union started off with a HUGE win over then #8 Ithaca, only to find out Ithaca was more like #50-75 in reality, then an atrocious loss at punchless Muhlenburg followed by some great, close victories followed by another OOC/OOR loss to Salisbury whom LV defeated yesterday. There is no question in dlip's mind Union was/is loaded with talent and dlip is very proud of his Dutchmen, yet the team did not gel enough to reach it's potential, which by the way dlip is hoping they will in 2010. So what many of us felt was the best team in the LL had two OOC/OOR loses to a poor team and an above average team who was quite down in 09. In dlip's mind the LL was a conference where teams beat the **** out of each other week in and week out. Yet when comparing the strength of this conference to other conferences in the East and the Nation as a whole, the LL which dlip almost always has as at least a top 12 conference in the country was indeed down from it's usual self.

[union89]

Well, Susquehanna won the LL.  They are usually not very good.  I understand they  were improved this year, but it was obvious as the season went on that the LL was very down this year.  In a chance to show it was just parity in the league as opposed to be 'down', our rep went to the MAC champ and lost by 59. 

I understand people wanting to paint it a different color, but the results clearly speak for themselves. 

Regardless of how you look at it.....650 total yards to 185ty is a thorough azz whopping.....congrats to DelVal.

[Yanks 99]

This is an interesting discussion, one that dlip knew would hit the LLPP once he heard the unfortunate final score of the Del Val game yesterday. First and foremost dlip wants to congratulate Del Val on a solid performance yesterday and doing everything they needed to get themselves into the second round. Coming from an LL perspective this result was very very disappointing to dlip. When he first heard from Frank yesterday that Sus was up 7-3 dlip's ****in grill lit up like a spring time ****in BBQ. Later when he heard Del Val was vibrating the Crusaders dlip honestly felt very down and disappointed. What does this score mean regarding Susquehanna and regarding the LL?

Susquehanna: obviously a much improved team, who each year in the LL struggled but made small gains each year culminating with a title run here in 09 behind a decent young QB and a brick-****-house of a back in Dave Paveletz. If one was to ask dlip honestly if Susquehanna would have won the LL any year besides this one dlip would have to say no. This is meant to take nothing away from Susquehanna, for they were very deserving of their title. Yet in the grand scheme of things the LL just wasn't itself this year in a few ways.

Liberty League: the League dlip loves as does his brethren here on the LLPP. One word that seemed to hit the LL this year was parity. We saw a Susquehanna team, the eventual winner of the LL lose to MMA (yes dlip was aware of the injury), we saw this same team defeat Bart, RPI, and Union This same team also lost to a poor ****in Lycoming team who was only a shadow of themselves this season as compared to 08 when they lost to Bart. SLU couldn't hang with anyone OOC, WPI can only be labeled "dominator of the bottom half of the NEFC", MMA is just MMA, they can hurt you but besides a win of league champ Sus they weren't in the mix, RPI looked like **** against a poor Utica team and lost to a U of R team that was competitive but unable to beat anyone OOC in 09. Bart was clearly rebuilding and searching for its identity throughout 09. They played well and dlip feels they made a lot of progress and gained momentum heading into 2010 but had an early season OOC loss as well as loses to Union and Susquehanna. And as for Union, dlip's beloved Union really told the story of the LL. Union started off with a HUGE win over then #8 Ithaca, only to find out Ithaca was more like #50-75 in reality, then an atrocious loss at punchless Muhlenburg followed by some great, close victories followed by another OOC/OOR loss to Salisbury whom LV defeated yesterday. There is no question in dlip's mind Union was/is loaded with talent and dlip is very proud of his Dutchmen, yet the team did not gel enough to reach it's potential, which by the way dlip is hoping they will in 2010. So what many of us felt was the best team in the LL had two OOC/OOR loses to a poor team and an above average team who was quite down in 09. In dlip's mind the LL was a conference where teams beat the **** out of each other week in and week out. Yet when comparing the strength of this conference to other conferences in the East and the Nation as a whole, the LL which dlip almost always has as at least a top 12 conference in the country was indeed down from it's usual self.

I will go back to my earlier assessment...09 Susquehana is a good comparison to 07 Hartwick.  Some great wins throughout the year...but some head scratching losses (Susquehana to MMA and Lycoming, Hartwick to WNEC and Curry), both winning their league titles, and then a terrible few minutes in their playoff games that put both teams way behind, and ending with a bad loss.

Congrats on winning the LL Susquehana, and good luck in the new conference next year.

[JQV]

However, the SUS-DVC game was 10-7 with 5 minutes left in the 2nd quarter.  TD, INT, TD, INT, TD in four minutes sunk Susquehanna, who was hanging well with DVC for most of the first half.

Frank,

This is such a contrived argument.  How does "hanging well for the first half" prove anything?  Are you really trying to defend the quality of a team that got beat by 59?

By that logic, my 1-9 Bucs are pretty equal to the 10-0 Saints.  They were only down 10-3 at the 2-minute warning in the first half.

[JT]

For what it's worth, I don't interpret Del Val's margin of victory as an indictment of the entire Liberty League or Upstate NY football in general this year.  If Del Val played at RPI or Union (or Ithaca or SJF), they probably would be favored.  But I wouldn't expect the Aggies to roll over those teams and I don't think it translates into guaranteed victories for, say, Leb Val or St. John Fisher or Albright over RPI.

Yes, Del Val proved to be the better team yesterday day.  But the game clearly snowballed on Susquehanna once their spirit was broken.  I wouldn't read too much more into the fact that Del Val beat SU by 59 than if they beat them by 30, 60 or 360.

Actually this is something worth keeping in mind for whomever goes to Mount Union.  Because whenever someone goes to Mount Union and gets bombed in the playoffs, the conclusion some reach is that the entire East region wouldn't be competitive in the OAC, that their best teams would finish third or fourth worse.  And while Mount Union's dominance is pretty good proof how good Mount Union is, I don't know whether it translates into proof that every OAC team is a juggernaut dwelling in Mount Union's shadow.

I just don't think you can draw comparative conclusions between entire conferences or regions because of isolated lop sided results.

Sometimes a team has the right mix of players who are relatively healthy, is executing, and is rolling.  It could be Del Val.

[JT]

Is it just JT, or does Ditka never finish a sentence?  Seems like he always trails off, like he's run out of air.

[SaintsFAN]

Is it just JT, or does Ditka never finish a sentence?  Seems like he always trails off, like he's run out of air.

Keyshawn and CC always cut him off --- those two yammer incessantly..


Look at front page news article in Cincy.  This chick blew 4x's the legal limit:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20091123/NEWS010701/311230010/1055/NEWS/Cops++Teacher+drove+drunk+%28times+4%29


Unless she's 400 lbs, I'd say she has a slight drinking problem.

[labart96]

With the final ITH in the archive, it may be time for TGP to take his annual long winter's nap.

Will be rooting for DVC to hang tough with MUC in a couple of weeks.  It would be nice to see the East well represented.

Hopefully 2010 will bode well for Upstate NY which clearly had a rough season (mostly due to "beating each other up").

A sneak preview at Bart's 2010 calendar has more than a few interesting match-ups (the SJF game looms largest in the OOC):

9/11/2010    Dickinson
9/18/2010    at Carnegie Mellon
9/25/2010    St. John Fisher
10/2/2010    at St. Lawrence
10/9/2010    Union
10/23/2010  at Merchant Marine
10/30/2010  WPI
11/6/2010    at Rensselaer
11/13/2010  Rochester

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[pumkinattack]

If you're like me, TGP, there's lax starting in February (crazy how early now), but yeah, football's pretty much over. 

People can debate all day and night on this, but I'm pretty resolute that the LL was down this year.  SUS had enough veteran presence and played pretty mistake free and that was the difference.  It's not like Hobart was always the most talented team when they won the league title (though the talent is often underrated here - I think), but motivation, consistency and experience can get you over the top in a year where there are so many deep flaws for the top half of the league. 

I sort of agree that Union is bringing a lot back and should be the favorite, but I have to question the inconsistency on O and the fact that the D will be a question next year.  Hobart's got to replace the D-line (have two quasi starters at DE coming back), but the guys leaving weren't super productive.  It really depends on how healthy and tested they get from the OOC schedule.  I have no idea what to make of RPI, but they just looked suspec this year and I really don't know if Hermann is the answer everyone proclaimed early in the year.  UofR brings a lot back and did play tough in conference, but after the Hobart game and looking a little closer, I think the paper team is better than the field product. 

[union89]

Is it just JT, or does Ditka never finish a sentence?  Seems like he always trails off, like he's run out of air.

Keyshawn and CC always cut him off --- those two yammer incessantly..


Look at front page news article in Cincy.  This chick blew 4x's the legal limit:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20091123/NEWS010701/311230010/1055/NEWS/Cops++Teacher+drove+drunk+%28times+4%29


Unless she's 400 lbs, I'd say she has a slight drinking problem.

BTW, fantastic showing by Thomas More....congrats.