FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

Ok, so i'll shut up on the topic after this...but to appease Frank, I made a breakdown, without manually changing the #'s to make them even.  I even adjusted some #'s (Fisher/Susq/Springfield - Hobart/Roch/Hartwick - Union/Ithaca) after thinking about them more, and to make people happy.  Here is what I came up with with.  1/2 points don't exist in my logic because there is no such thing as the 1.5 best team.

1   Alfred
2   StJohnFisher
3   Susquehanna
4   Springfield
5   Union
6   Ithaca
7   Hobart
8   Rochester
9   Hartwick
10   RPI
11   MMA
12   StLawrence
13   WPI
14   Utica

LL - 3+5+7+8+10+11+12+13 = 69/8 - 8.625
E8 - 1+2+4+6+9+14 = 36/6 = 6

Not that I even care because I don't feel numbers are needed, the E6 is slightly better than the LL top to bottom this year.  They are stronger at the top, relatively the same in the middle, and marginally weaker at the bottom with what i consider the worst team of the 14, however, I think Utica, WPI, St. Lawrence, MMA would have a sick Round Robin tourney.

Much more respectable assessment, Terd.  I, for one, appreciate the work you put into it.

Couple issues, though.  You're picking on my use of ".5s" -- but as I explained, I'm not using places as much as I am perceived relative strengths (using Alfred's "1" as the starting point).  Not all dropoffs between teams are equal, and that's what my point was in my list.  

My biggest issue with your list is where you're placing Hartwick.  Their only league win was vs. Utica.  Their four non-conference wins were against the likes of Norwich, Mt. Ida and that crew.  If you hate Utica, you can't like Hartwick much more.  RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins.  If Union had been at full strength Saturday, that game would've been ugly, in my honest opinion.  So, don't look at the 18-point margin too closely without looking at the surrounding circumstances (as another poster pointed out today).  

Beyond that, there is not too much difference in our relative positioning of these teams.  It's just me trying to show that there is more closeness between teams up top than there is as you jump "tiers" -- and that should be accounted for in the assessments.  

In my list, I'd equate every "position" to be about a 2.5-point point spread separation on a neutral field (thus, a .5 would be 1.25 points), since some people want to know how I'd set up point spreads based on my list.

[Frank Rossi]

Frank of all people....you know better than to make such a bald assertion.  How do you propose to numerically rank teams if A beats B, and B beats C, and C beats A and so on....Besides he has them 5 and 6 not 5 and 17....cmon Frank....your better than that logic.

The head-to-head is a starting point.  Overall W-L and a look at common opponent results helps here.  My point is that he didn't provide a reason to put Ithaca over Union when the head-to-head exists.  Yes, there are reasons to look past head-to-head results... but here, I don't see any yet.

[Frank Rossi]

I think UC could beat slu, wpi and maybe even mma

Holding you to the same standard I held Terd, DC, why do you think such a thing?  Only two teams went oh-fer in their respective conferences and Utica's non-conference schedule, with the exception of RPI, was as bad as Hartwick's.  For the same reasons I think Hartwick wasn't so hot this year, I have to be consistent and say Utica was colder based on the head-to-head loss and overall record issues.

[Frank Rossi]

translation..."I did juice the numbers and this is just my subjective silly opinion just like everyone else's"

What, you got tired of beating up on DC and need a new culprit?  Try again.  I don't see your list of 14 here, Judas.

[Frank Rossi]

Frank, what would you put the spread at on AU-Susq if they had to play today in a game that mattered?  How bout SJF-Susq. ?

Subtract relative positions and multiply the difference by 2.5.  Then apply a three-point advantage to the home team or no advantage on a neutral field. 

[Yanks 99]

Ok, so i'll shut up on the topic after this...but to appease Frank, I made a breakdown, without manually changing the #'s to make them even.  I even adjusted some #'s (Fisher/Susq/Springfield - Hobart/Roch/Hartwick - Union/Ithaca) after thinking about them more, and to make people happy.  Here is what I came up with with.  1/2 points don't exist in my logic because there is no such thing as the 1.5 best team.

1   Alfred
2   StJohnFisher
3   Susquehanna
4   Springfield
5   Union
6   Ithaca
7   Hobart
8   Rochester
9   Hartwick
10   RPI
11   MMA
12   StLawrence
13   WPI
14   Utica

LL - 3+5+7+8+10+11+12+13 = 69/8 - 8.625
E8 - 1+2+4+6+9+14 = 36/6 = 6

Not that I even care because I don't feel numbers are needed, the E6 is slightly better than the LL top to bottom this year.  They are stronger at the top, relatively the same in the middle, and marginally weaker at the bottom with what i consider the worst team of the 14, however, I think Utica, WPI, St. Lawrence, MMA would have a sick Round Robin tourney.

Much more respectable assessment, Terd.  I, for one, appreciate the work you put into it.

Couple issues, though.  You're picking on my use of ".5s" -- but as I explained, I'm not using places as much as I am perceived relative strengths (using Alfred's "1" as the starting point).  Not all dropoffs between teams are equal, and that's what my point was in my list.  

My biggest issue with your list is where you're placing Hartwick.  Their only league win was vs. Utica.  Their four non-conference wins were against the likes of Norwich, Mt. Ida and that crew.  If you hate Utica, you can't like Hartwick much more.  RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins.  If Union had been at full strength Saturday, that game would've been ugly, in my honest opinion.  So, don't look at the 18-point margin too closely without looking at the surrounding circumstances (as another poster pointed out today).  

Beyond that, there is not too much difference in our relative positioning of these teams.  It's just me trying to show that there is more closeness between teams up top than there is as you jump "tiers" -- and that should be accounted for in the assessments.  

In my list, I'd equate every "position" to be about a 2.5-point point spread separation on a neutral field (thus, a .5 would be 1.25 points), since some people want to know how I'd set up point spreads based on my list.

I saw MMA, SLU, and Wick play this year...I thought MMA was the worst team of the three by a lot.  Maybe I saw them on a bad day...but you cannot give them too much credit for having one "miracle" win over a team that got beat by 59 points in the first round of the NCAA's.

And out of curiosity, who are RPI's quality wins over???

The point being, Terd put together a pretty good list...but these lists are all subjective.  Nice work Terd...keep on keeping on...

[Frank Rossi]

I saw MMA, SLU, and Wick play this year...I thought MMA was the worst team of the three by a lot.  Maybe I saw them on a bad day...but you cannot give them too much credit for having one "miracle" win over a team that got beat by 59 points in the first round of the NCAA's.

And out of curiosity, who are RPI's quality wins over???

The point being, Terd put together a pretty good list...but these lists are all subjective.  Nice work Terd...keep on keeping on...

Here are the two assessments next to each other:

Terd's Positioning  Frank's Strengths
------------------  -----------------
1.  Alfred          1.    Alfred
2.  SJF             1.5.  Susquehanna
3.  Susquehanna     2.    Union
4.  Springfield     2.5.  SJF
5.  Union           3.    Springfield
6.  Ithaca          4.    Hobart
7.  Hobart          4.5.  Ithaca
8.  Rochester       5.    Rochester
9.  Hartwick        6.5.  RPI
10. RPI             8.    St. Lawrence
11. MMA             11.   MMA
12. St. Lawrence    13.   Hartwick
13. WPI             14.   WPI
14. Utica           15.   Utica

The differences aren't immense.  Nobody said RPI had "quality wins" this season, but they've been placed ahead of teams they beat (or should've beaten in the case of Hartwick on my list) but behind teams that beat them.  So, not sure where you're getting that from.

I, too, saw MMA, WPI and Wick play this season.  I'm comfortable with where I have them based on that, thanks.  Hartwick's run defense is suspect, at best.  MMA would've eaten them up for 300 yards on the ground and won a game between the teams, in my opinion (especially with a healthy Heimbrock).  MMA was an up-and-down team this year, but they weren't dreadful by any means.

I think I just got done saying Terd's new list was much better and included some good thought behind the places.  I picked on a couple minor points -- and you're acting like I insulted his mother.  Relax, Yanks.  I give credit where credit is due.

[Yanks 99]

I saw MMA, SLU, and Wick play this year...I thought MMA was the worst team of the three by a lot.  Maybe I saw them on a bad day...but you cannot give them too much credit for having one "miracle" win over a team that got beat by 59 points in the first round of the NCAA's.

And out of curiosity, who are RPI's quality wins over???

The point being, Terd put together a pretty good list...but these lists are all subjective.  Nice work Terd...keep on keeping on...

Here are the two assessments next to each other:

Terd's Positioning  Frank's Strengths
------------------  -----------------
1.  Alfred          1.    Alfred
2.  SJF             1.5.  Susquehanna
3.  Susquehanna     2.    Union
4.  Springfield     2.5.  SJF
5.  Union           3.    Springfield
6.  Ithaca          4.    Hobart
7.  Hobart          4.5.  Ithaca
8.  Rochester       5.    Rochester
9.  Hartwick        6.5.  RPI
10. RPI             8.    St. Lawrence
11. MMA             11.   MMA
12. St. Lawrence    13.   Hartwick
13. WPI             14.   WPI
14. Utica           15.   Utica

The differences aren't immense.  Nobody said RPI had "quality wins" this season, but they've been placed ahead of teams they beat (or should've beaten in the case of Hartwick on my list) but behind teams that beat them.  So, not sure where you're getting that from.

I, too, saw MMA, WPI and Wick play this season.  I'm comfortable with where I have them based on that, thanks.  Hartwick's run defense is suspect, at best.  MMA would've eaten them up for 300 yards on the ground and won a game between the teams, in my opinion (especially with a healthy Heimbrock).  MMA was an up-and-down team this year, but they weren't dreadful by any means.

I think I just got done saying Terd's new list was much better and included some good thought behind the places.  I picked on a couple minor points -- and you're acting like I insulted his mother.  Relax, Yanks.  I give credit where credit is due.

What makes you think I am getting excited about any of this, or attacking anything???  I was just giving my two cents.  I was disagreeing...that is all.

You actually did say though "RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins."  I never said Wick had any real quality wins...all I asked was who was RPI's quality wins against?

I agree that Wick's defense is not the greatest...but they were better this year than they have been the last two years.  I saw MMA play with Heimbrock...and I also saw MMA's defense.  Like I said...and just my opinion, MMA was one of the worst teams I have seen this year.

[Frank Rossi]

What makes you think I am getting excited about any of this, or attacking anything???  I was just giving my two cents.  I was disagreeing...that is all.

You actually did say though "RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins."  I never said Wick had any real quality wins...all I asked was who was RPI's quality wins against?

I agree that Wick's defense is not the greatest...but they were better this year than they have been the last two years.  I saw MMA play with Heimbrock...and I also saw MMA's defense.  Like I said...and just my opinion, MMA was one of the worst teams I have seen this year.

The terms "quality of wins" and "quality wins" are two different things.  The first is a relative term (the quality of RPI's wins compared to the quality of Hartwick's wins was better based on in-conference wins RPI had, for instance).  The second is a term of art for wins against top-tier teams.  So when I said "quality of wins," it was meant for comparison and not to denote some big upset win.  Sorry for the confusion.

[Yanks 99]

What makes you think I am getting excited about any of this, or attacking anything???  I was just giving my two cents.  I was disagreeing...that is all.

You actually did say though "RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins."  I never said Wick had any real quality wins...all I asked was who was RPI's quality wins against?

I agree that Wick's defense is not the greatest...but they were better this year than they have been the last two years.  I saw MMA play with Heimbrock...and I also saw MMA's defense.  Like I said...and just my opinion, MMA was one of the worst teams I have seen this year.

The terms "quality of wins" and "quality wins" are two different things.  The first is a relative term (the quality of RPI's wins compared to the quality of Hartwick's wins was better based on in-conference wins RPI had, for instance).  The second is a term of art for wins against top-tier teams.  So when I said "quality of wins," it was meant for comparison and not to denote some big upset win.  Sorry for the confusion.

I know the difference...and no confusion...that still doesn't explain the word quality when you are talking about beating teams with respective records of 5-5, 4-6, 3-7, 3-7, and 4-6.

Again...not saying Wick beat teams with records any better...just disagreeing with your assessment thats all.  At the end of the day...#9 - #14 is pretty subjective... 

[Frank Rossi]

What makes you think I am getting excited about any of this, or attacking anything???  I was just giving my two cents.  I was disagreeing...that is all.

You actually did say though "RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins."  I never said Wick had any real quality wins...all I asked was who was RPI's quality wins against?

I agree that Wick's defense is not the greatest...but they were better this year than they have been the last two years.  I saw MMA play with Heimbrock...and I also saw MMA's defense.  Like I said...and just my opinion, MMA was one of the worst teams I have seen this year.

The terms "quality of wins" and "quality wins" are two different things.  The first is a relative term (the quality of RPI's wins compared to the quality of Hartwick's wins was better based on in-conference wins RPI had, for instance).  The second is a term of art for wins against top-tier teams.  So when I said "quality of wins," it was meant for comparison and not to denote some big upset win.  Sorry for the confusion.

I know the difference...and no confusion...that still doesn't explain the word quality when you are talking about beating teams with respective records of 5-5, 4-6, 3-7, 3-7, and 4-6.

Again...not saying Wick beat teams with records any better...just disagreeing with your assessment thats all.  At the end of the day...#9 - #14 is pretty subjective...  

Are you comfortable suggesting the LL's .300 to .500 teams are inferior to the NEFC's and ECFC's .300 to .500 teams?

[Yanks 99]

What makes you think I am getting excited about any of this, or attacking anything???  I was just giving my two cents.  I was disagreeing...that is all.

You actually did say though "RPI and MMA are definitely above that level based on quality of wins."  I never said Wick had any real quality wins...all I asked was who was RPI's quality wins against?

I agree that Wick's defense is not the greatest...but they were better this year than they have been the last two years.  I saw MMA play with Heimbrock...and I also saw MMA's defense.  Like I said...and just my opinion, MMA was one of the worst teams I have seen this year.

The terms "quality of wins" and "quality wins" are two different things.  The first is a relative term (the quality of RPI's wins compared to the quality of Hartwick's wins was better based on in-conference wins RPI had, for instance).  The second is a term of art for wins against top-tier teams.  So when I said "quality of wins," it was meant for comparison and not to denote some big upset win.  Sorry for the confusion.

I know the difference...and no confusion...that still doesn't explain the word quality when you are talking about beating teams with respective records of 5-5, 4-6, 3-7, 3-7, and 4-6.

Again...not saying Wick beat teams with records any better...just disagreeing with your assessment thats all.  At the end of the day...#9 - #14 is pretty subjective... 

Are you comfortable suggesting the LL's .300 to .500 teams are inferior to the NEFC's and ECFC's .300 to .500 teams?

Not normally...but at the end of the day...who cares???  And if both the E8 and the LL are down this year...who is to say?  This is one of those mindless our worst teams are better then your worst teams arguements. 

[PBR...]

giddy up....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576649,00.html?test=latestnews

[SaintsFAN]

giddy up....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576649,00.html?test=latestnews

Thats pretty funny... I'm assuming the girl didn't care about falling below... see how she's propped up on the ledge?

SF had a gf of two years that loved to be in public --- glad we didn't make any newspapers.

[SJFF82]

Frank, what would you put the spread at on AU-Susq if they had to play today in a game that mattered?  How bout SJF-Susq. ?

Subtract relative positions and multiply the difference by 2.5.  Then apply a three-point advantage to the home team or no advantage on a neutral field.  

So Fisher only beats Susq. by .5 at Fisher....love to see you put some money on those odds Frank.  

Fisher beats IC on the road by 23
Fisher outgains SC by 500 yds and wins by 35 on the road
Fisher dominates Cortland statistically and by 14 on the scoreboard
Fisher loses to AU (Yours and Terd's Number 1) by only 3

....and how does Susq fair in this hypothetical tilt?

EDIT: since there are no ties in college football...this is a pick em game according to you.  You take Susq at Growney....I'll take your money!