FB: Liberty League

[dlippiel]

Sorry Frank dlip has to agree with PC here. To dlip that game was telltale regarding Susquehanna's representation of our beloved conference. Funny and possibly hypocritical (and maybe homerish) but dlip feels that Union would have given DVC a much better game if Coney was healthy (which if Union defeated SUS Coney would have been unable to go against DVC). Regardless of this debate which really is small potatoes to the bigger argument that the LL needs to step up in 2010 as does the East as a whole.

No question to dlip that the LL has become very competitive and exciting to watch year in and year out. dlip for sure bleeds Garnet first and LL each and every day but the "get better" argument in relation to the rest of the nation is relevant and appropriate at this time regarding the LL.

Union is the front runner this year for sure. dlip looks froward to presenting some information regarding the teams strengths and potential for 2010. dlip is getting itchy and excited for the U's 2010 campaign. Frank give dlip a shout or PM nect time you are in Shocktown and let's go to Peter Pause and see Bruno and fam. He brought Sophia in a couple weeks ago and had a blast!

So, you're also saying that the SUS/DVC game relegated the LL to NEFC status?

dlip will not go that far and maybe he has put too much emphasis on that SUS/DVC outcome but it does hold some water Frank, enough for Pat to have a point. Now obviously dlip feels the LL is a MUCH stronger conference than the NEFC any day of the week and probably much stronger than Pat gives it credit for. Remember, we see the in's and outs all season where as for the most part he only has #'s and game comparisons to judge by. So when it comes to the intricacies we have much more insight, at least enough to know fairly confidently we are a top 12 conference in the nation.

The game in question was seemingly just a very poor outing by the Crusaders and dlip believes they were much more formidable of a foe than they showed. Yet when looking at the game they really were beaten handily and dlip does not think that is really debatable.

Now you made a valid point with Union's 2-0 record against the quite respected E6. Yet it was a clawing victory at home against a Bombers team that was nationally ranked at #8 coming in and by the end of the season turned out to not be deserving of that ranking or any in the top 25 for that matter. The U destroyed a clearly over-matched Wick team that somehow gave a few E6 teams a run during the regular season.

Bottom line the LL is a top notch conference but one that is getting very close to the "what have you done for me lately (past 3 years)" in the East and especially nationally. dlip is not is anyway (or not trying to for that matter) taking the conferences strength away and diminishing it to the point of being parallel to the NEFC. His point lies in the area of understanding an outsiders view that even the LL favorite, Union, a very athletic, smart, and matured football team, may not be deserving of much pre-season attention. Believe dlip Frank he would love for the LL to be put at the very top of any list when it comes to relative strength in the East and the nation as a whole. He believes that the LL just has to make some type of push to get there, and he really believes they will (while at the same time not wanting to put too much pressure on Union before we even get out of the gate.

[Frank Rossi]

dlip will not go that far and maybe he has put too much emphasis on that SUS/DVC outcome but it does hold some water Frank, enough for Pat to have a point. Now obviously dlip feels the LL is a MUCH stronger conference than the NEFC any day of the week and probably much stronger than Pat gives it credit for. Remember, we see the in's and outs all season where as for the most part he only has #'s and game comparisons to judge by. So when it comes to the intricacies we have much more insight, at least enough to know fairly confidently we are a top 12 conference in the nation.

The game in question was seemingly just a very poor outing by the Crusaders and dlip believes they were much more formidable of a foe than they showed. Yet when looking at the game they really were beaten handily and dlip does not think that is really debatable.

Now you made a valid point with Union's 2-0 record against the quite respected E6. Yet it was a clawing victory at home against a Bombers team that was nationally ranked at #8 coming in and by the end of the season turned out to not be deserving of that ranking or any in the top 25 for that matter. The U destroyed a clearly over-matched Wick team that somehow gave a few E6 teams a run during the regular season.

Bottom line the LL is a top notch conference but one that is getting very close to the "what have you done for me lately (past 3 years)" in the East and especially nationally. dlip is not is anyway (or not trying to for that matter) taking the conferences strength away and diminishing it to the point of being parallel to the NEFC. His point lies in the area of understanding an outsiders view that even the LL favorite, Union, a very athletic, smart, and matured football team, may not be deserving of much pre-season attention. Believe dlip Frank he would love for the LL to be put at the very top of any list when it comes to relative strength in the East and the nation as a whole. He believes that the LL just has to make some type of push to get there, and he really believes they will (while at the same time not wanting to put too much pressure on Union before we even get out of the gate.

OK, so we've cleared up the lower threshold of the debate on your end.  However, on the upper threshold, are you conceding that Union will lose to Ithaca in Game 1?  If not, then you should agree with me that the presence of Ithaca in that poll (not to mention two other E6 teams) would suggest that Union should be in that poll, too.  Again, that's my issue with things here, as LD and TGP suggested.  One could suggest just as much, "What has the NJAC done for us lately?"  The truth is, none of the East Region conferences has shown much swagger in the past few years since Mount Union has been granted entry into the bracket.  I pray that some East Region team goes undefeated this year so that the Committee is stuck with the statement made last year on "In the HuddLLe" that if there had been an undefeated East team, Mount Union would not have been pushed in again as the #1 seed.  THEN, we might be able to look at where the dominance lays in the East.  I just don't see so much dominance to just out of pocket exclude an entire conference from a poll like that -- especially in the case of the LL when three E6 teams are apparently being placed over the LL in its entirety.

[dlippiel]

If not, then you should agree with me that the presence of Ithaca in that poll (not to mention two other E6 teams) would suggest that Union should be in that poll, too.

Clearly dlip does and he definitely feels that Union is warranted a place in that poll over the likes of Ithaca. To be honest, this season, dlip feels that Union could/should be in that poll group over Cortland, Curry, Leb Valley and right next to Fisher, MSU, and Alfred. dlip sees that side of the argument and concurs 110%.

Honestly dlip really hopes Union gets overlooked this year on both a regional and national scale, so the kids get the hunger to go out their and accomplish some very high goals. Goals that dlip believes they are very capable of achieving. It's going to be an excellent and exciting year Frank dlip can hardly contain himself.

[Pat Coleman]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

[Frank Rossi]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

When was the last time Ithaca, Alfred, Montclair, Leb Val or Del Val won the East?

[lewdogg11]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

When was the last time Ithaca, Alfred, Montclair, Leb Val or Del Val won the East?

or Curry. 

[lewdogg11]

Didn't Curry not even win the NEFC last year?  That makes sense.  Where is Maine Maritime in the poll?  Haha...  The NEFC 2nd place team of a year ago in over an LL team.  Atleast an LL team hasn't lost to Curry lately unlike someone in the '3 team in the poll' E8...

[dlippiel]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

Nothing that is head and shoulders" above any of the other teams, but enough when one takes into account SOS, comparative results against similar opponents, and strength of conference where Union (or any favored team in the LL) are deserving of a spot over at least 1 of the E8 teams, definitely over a second place NEFC team, and a toss up with the top two NJAC teams.

The point being made here by my fellow LLPP brethren is clear and correct. If one makes a list of the possible top teams in the East with the potential to win the region if that list consists of more than three or four teams IDHO Union or any favorite for the LL title should be there. My previous point in support of PC is that when asking the question in general looking for a clear favorite for the East region crown Union or any LL conference favorite may not be deserving of being considered as a favorite (top 3-4 teams) as a result of recent results on the field.

Here are dlip's top five as of today:

1.) Del Val
2.) SJF (going on a feeling)
3.) Alfred
4.) Union
5.) Montclair

[Pat Coleman]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

When was the last time Ithaca, Alfred, Montclair, Leb Val or Del Val won the East?

I did say "other than Leb Val" but all of those teams have been in the playoffs more recently than Union. Gotta be in it to win it. When was the last time Union was in the NCAA playoffs? Hell, in the last four years, Union has won five games in a season more times than it's been in the bracket.

[lewdogg11]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

When was the last time Ithaca, Alfred, Montclair, Leb Val or Del Val won the East?

I did say "other than Leb Val" but all of those teams have been in the playoffs more recently than Union. Gotta be in it to win it. When was the last time Union was in the NCAA playoffs? Hell, in the last four years, Union has won five games in a season more times than it's been in the bracket.

I understand the whole thing, and my original remark was more for confrontational purposes(as the season is coming upon us and feathers need to be ruffled), but what warrants 3 E8 teams, 2 NJAC teams, and 1 NEFC team, but 0 LL teams? 

Aren't people still having parades that the NEFC finally won a playoff game?  It's clearly the worst conference in the country, no?(ECFC excluded since they don't really count yet in my mind)

[Frank Rossi]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

When was the last time Ithaca, Alfred, Montclair, Leb Val or Del Val won the East?

I did say "other than Leb Val" but all of those teams have been in the playoffs more recently than Union. Gotta be in it to win it. When was the last time Union was in the NCAA playoffs? Hell, in the last four years, Union has won five games in a season more times than it's been in the bracket.

But you beg the question:  SOMEBODY has to win the LL.  And the winner will not be a team on par with an NEFC team based on the road they had to cross to get there.  It's not a Union vs. Pat issue -- it's an LL vs. Pat issue since the entire league was spited here.

(P.S. Thanks for the bulletin board material.  :-) )

[dlippiel]

dlip is really enjoying all the football talk fellas, thanks +k!

[Knightstalker]

A husband and wife are shopping in their local Wal-Mart. The husband picks up a case of Budweiser and puts it in their cart.
'What do you think you're doing?' asks the wife. 'They're on sale, only $10 for 24 cans' he replies.
'Put them back, we can't afford them' demands the wife, and so they carry on shopping.
A few aisles further on along the woman picks up a $20 jar of face cream and puts it in the basket. 'What do you think you're doing?' asks the husband.
'It's my face cream. It makes me look beautiful,' replies the wife. Her husband retorts: 'So does 24 cans of Budweiser and it's half the price.'

[Doid23]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

The poll is also not "who has made the playoffs in the last few years".

[Doid23]

Remember the poll is not "who will most likely win a share of a conference title" but "who will win the east." What has Union proved in the playoffs in the past couple years or the LL in general that's so absolutely head and shoulders above anyone on the list (other than Leb Val)?

When was the last time Ithaca, Alfred, Montclair, Leb Val or Del Val won the East?

I did say "other than Leb Val" but all of those teams have been in the playoffs more recently than Union. Gotta be in it to win it. When was the last time Union was in the NCAA playoffs? Hell, in the last four years, Union has won five games in a season more times than it's been in the bracket.

Hell, Union beat Ithaca last year, and Ithaca didn't make the playoffs. And the last time they did, they lost to Curry, but THEY'RE in the poll. Again, the poll is about THIS years teams.

+K to the LL posters for fighting the fight, whether it be Union or any other LL team.