FB: Liberty League

['gro]

Lewdogg speaks the truth

[union89]

What I think is being 'overthought' is the ultimate goal here. If your goal is to simply limp into the playoffs, then go for it and schedule Husson as your OOC. If your goal is to compete for the national championship, you only become the best by playing and beating the best. DVC played and lost to Wesley last year, but they took care of business otherwise(for the most part) and had an identity of where they stood nationally and why they weren't quite up to par with the top tier.

Making the playoffs is great, if you were St. Lawrence last year, but winning in the playoffs is a different animal and can only be done consistently if you challenge your team.

Ok, but can we be honest here: How many teams in the LL can set a realistic goal of competing for the national title? Right now, the best any team can hope for is winning until they run into UWW/MUC. Would playing a tougher OOC schedule make you more likely to beat, say an E8 team, or MAC team in the playoffs? I guess.

But I think the current nature of D3 football has altered the realism of some of those goals, so I think some teams have set the bar at a different level and adjusted accordingly

And the loser mentality of the East Region continues.

I've never understood why we can't actually be rational and say, that, as things currently stand, LL teams don't really have a realistic goal of winning a title. Does it do a team like St. Lawrence any good to set a goal of a Stagg Bowl right now? I'm all for striving to improve, but let's actually set reachable goals here. Start small. Maybe a team from the LL getting out of the second round for the first time since when, RPI in '03?

It's a simple fact: Most teams are not good enough to compete for national titles. Why is that so wrong to admit? In something like D-III football, where there are 200+ teams, a majority of them are not of that caliber, and that's before you get into the whole MUC/UWW mess. The playing field of college sports is too uneven for everyone to compete equally, even at the D-III level.

Now does this mean the LL can't turn it around? Of course not. But it takes time. What team out of that conference was a serious title contender? '03 RPI? '05 Union? The conference's "best" team went 6-4 last year. The conference champion finished with a losing record. Amazingly, I'm not banking on a title contender emerging. So maybe that means I have a loser mentality. But impartially looking at it, what other conclusion is there to draw?

You're exactly right, it's not going to happen overnight, but you NEED to start somewhere.  Making the playoffs back in the 16 team field was an accomplishment.  Making the 32 team field, not so much.  Win your conference and you are in.  Pretty simple right?  And if you don't and you are good enough to get a Pool C, then you deserve it.  Going 8-1 or 9-1 and NOT winning your conference with OOC wins against Endicott and Utica really does a lot for you.  It doesn't have to be Wesley, or Mount Union, but why not Montclair, or DVC, or Rowan, or even Salisbury.  Maybe a National Championship goal is lofty, but making the playoffs and knowing you can't win is a loser mentality.  Just a few years ago, you could argue whether the E8 or LL had the better conference.  The LL has been laughable since.

Put a good product on the field, play some good teams, and WIN!  I'm sick of the East accepting that they just aren't as good as other regions.  Get some good coaches, recruit good players, and put a good product on the field.  And STOP overthinking everything otherwise and being happy to 'make' the playoffs.

To quote Troy Brown, "BINGO....WE GOT A BINGO!!!!!!!!"

LD is exactly right.  It gets tiring listening to posters bitching about how the East gets no respect, then in the same sentence state that we should schedule weaker OOC opponents.  Beating the snot out of a team like Husson does nothing for you.  If Union plays Husson, which coach learns more about his team?  Union learns nothing by pounding the ball off-tackle and dominating Husson.  Husson learns that they have to become more stout on their defensive front in order to compete with even a mediocre Eastern team.  Union may win the game on the field, but Husson wins in the long run by learning what they need to do to compete on the next level.  I would rather see Union play Wesley and play the part of the sponge as to what changes need to be made to compete with an elite team.  'Massaging' your schedule in order to slide in the back door with a Pool 'C' bid is a defeatist attitude.  Win the LL Championship, or you don't deserve to be in the playoffs in the first place.  I would rather enter the playoffs having lost to Wesley, Salisbury and WWW than beating 3 teams from the NEFC....I would have a better self awareness of my teams strengths and weaknesses.

A good analogy of this is using Bombers798891's previous posts about the LL not being able to win the D3 National Championship.  Bombers is correct and has won the arguement....in reality though, who is he actually arguing with?  

[Mr. Ypsi]

This may be true but DelVal didn't lose to Widener, and if they did lose to them they shouldn't be in the playoffs in the first place.  Now you can ask your self : "Would they have gotten in if they had lost to Widener but beaten Crappy State instead of Wesley"?  Maybe maybe not, but a team that is going to lose to Widener, would proably have dropped a game to Lycoming, Wilkes, Albright etc wouldn't you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQNqa0zIYs

Also, name me the last two-loss team to get into the playoffs through Pool C.

Wheaton, 3 years ago.  Then they won the 'north' region (the only year neither UMU or UWW was in the region).

[Bombers798891]

To quote Troy Brown, "BINGO....WE GOT A BINGO!!!!!!!!"

LD is exactly right.  It gets tiring listening to posters bitching about how the East gets no respect, then in the same sentence state that we should schedule weaker OOC opponents.  Beating the snot out of a team like Husson does nothing for you.  If Union plays Husson, which coach learns more about his team?  Union learns nothing by pounding the ball off-tackle and dominating Husson.  Husson learns that they have to become more stout on their defensive front in order to compete with even a mediocre Eastern team.  Union may win the game on the field, but Husson wins in the long run by learning what they need to do to compete on the next level.  I would rather see Union play Wesley and play the part of the sponge as to what changes need to be made to compete with an elite team.  'Massaging' your schedule in order to slide in the back door with a Pool 'C' bid is a defeatist attitude.  Win the LL Championship, or you don't deserve to be in the playoffs in the first place.  I would rather enter the playoffs having lost to Wesley, Salisbury and WWW than beating 3 teams from the NEFC....I would have a better self awareness of my teams strengths and weaknesses.

A good analogy of this is using Bombers798891's previous posts about the LL not being able to win the D3 National Championship.  Bombers is correct and has won the arguement....in reality though, who is he actually arguing with?  

Well, it's interesting, because when I posted that, the response was that that's a "loser mentality." So I guess, whoever said that, is who I'm arguing with.

['gro]

For what its worth... RPI will be playing Castleton State next season (and Alfred, so they have that going for them).

[lewdogg11]

For what its worth... RPI will be playing Castleton State next season (and Alfred, so they have that going for them).

Hopefully with a changing of the guard we'll see a change in the years to come. Hopefully.

I could see some type of cross-coast home and home series to showcase the facilities. Would be nice to see and possibly some good exposure.

[Frank Rossi]

For what its worth... RPI will be playing Castleton State next season (and Alfred, so they have that going for them).

Hopefully with a changing of the guard we'll see a change in the years to come. Hopefully.

I could see some type of cross-coast home and home series to showcase the facilities. Would be nice to see and possibly some good exposure.

With Alfred there now, what's wrong with RPI's OOC schedule?

[lewdogg11]

For what its worth... RPI will be playing Castleton State next season (and Alfred, so they have that going for them).

Hopefully with a changing of the guard we'll see a change in the years to come. Hopefully.

I could see some type of cross-coast home and home series to showcase the facilities. Would be nice to see and possibly some good exposure.

With Alfred there now, what's wrong with RPI's OOC schedule?

If Alfred stays good, then it's atleast an improvement.  But remember, in recent years RPI played St. John Fisher, Kean, and Plymouth St. and all 3 have much different reputations now then they did when they were on the RPI schedule.

I'd like to see a 10th game added.  2 mediocre OOC games(i.e. - Utica/Endicott/Castleton St.), 1 middle of the road OOC game which could be higher level on any year(i.e. - Alfred/Hartwick/Springfield/Lyco/Widener/Wilkes), and 1 very tough OOC game(Ithaca/Cortland/Fisher/Rowan/Montclair/DVC).

That's just me and my non-law school opinion.

[Jonny Utah]

This may be true but DelVal didn't lose to Widener, and if they did lose to them they shouldn't be in the playoffs in the first place.  Now you can ask your self : "Would they have gotten in if they had lost to Widener but beaten Crappy State instead of Wesley"?  Maybe maybe not, but a team that is going to lose to Widener, would proably have dropped a game to Lycoming, Wilkes, Albright etc wouldn't you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQNqa0zIYs

Also, name me the last two-loss team to get into the playoffs through Pool C.

I can't.  You name me the last two-loss team that deserved to get into the playoffs?  (Although Ithaca made it in with 2 losses in 2007 before the E8 had a pool A bid)

[Bombers798891]

This may be true but DelVal didn't lose to Widener, and if they did lose to them they shouldn't be in the playoffs in the first place.  Now you can ask your self : "Would they have gotten in if they had lost to Widener but beaten Crappy State instead of Wesley"?  Maybe maybe not, but a team that is going to lose to Widener, would proably have dropped a game to Lycoming, Wilkes, Albright etc wouldn't you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQNqa0zIYs

Also, name me the last two-loss team to get into the playoffs through Pool C.

I can't.  You name me the last two-loss team that deserved to get into the playoffs?  (Although Ithaca made it in with 2 losses in 2007 before the E8 had a pool A bid)

The E8 was a seven-team conference in 2007. I'm pretty sure they had a Pool A bid that season. That's how Hartwick got in remember? And that Ithaca team was very good.

[labart96]

TGP for probably the first time ever is agreeing with an Ithaca fan (JK - Bombers

TGP will go on the record that Hobart or probably most eastern region teams have absolutely (insert Dean Wormer voice here) a Zero.Point.Zero shot at winning a national championship in the foreseeable future, especially given how the NCAA has set up the playoff system, and that we have the "two-headed purple people eaters" running the table.

The latter is probably why you have coaches like Rochester's Greene going on the record that UWW and MUC shouldn't be in DIII, given their "recruiting practices" and other aspects of their programs don't "fit the mold" of DIII sports (trust me, TGP realizes this is debatable).

That said TGP doesn't want this to go into a DIV direction - BTW - interesting no one mentioned the obvious (i.e., if the MAC, LL, E8 or NJAC champ goes 9 or 10-0, then you'd at least see a team punch a ticket to the final four, but TGP digresses) but that's probably b/c we beat that one to death last November/December....

Schools like my alma mater, for better or for worse, tend to more interested in playing "like institutions", winning their conf title and making the playoffs.  To Frank's point, this is the system that the NCAA set up.  This is also why Hobart set up the Dickinson series and occasionally seemed to "avoid E8 schools".  Do I think this is the best policy as a fan?  No.  As an admissions or athletics administration guy?  Yes, per the commentary previously provided.

TGP thinks that a league championship and a playoff run given the current environment is a) realistic given the "rules" in play and b) makes the most financial sense (i.e., playoffs cost the school more money - it's not like you win a cash prize from the NCAA ala the BCS for hosting a playoff game) - unless the NCAA drastically changes the rules so that teams aren't penalized for playing "above their heads" during the regular season.

Anyway, it's only a "loser mentality" depending on your perspective.  TGP never doubted Hobart would lose vs. MUC back in 2008, but it was still a great experience to see how it panned out (in the playoffs).  As a fan TGP doesn't see why winning the LL and a playoff run or other league title is not a "worthy goal"?  The Saxon fans seemed pretty amped at their playoff run this season, but Pep is pretty amped most of the time anyway.

So, if you're "glass half empty, it probably seems like "settling", but given everything thing else, and the fact TGP prefers his glasses half full, TGP will take the aforementioned league champ/pool a option given how the current system is structured.

[Jonny Utah]

Right bombers.  And so the selection committee had to look around and decide whether or not there were other teams that deserved to get in over a 2 loss Ithaca.  They decided there were not.  And Ithaca had a decent but not amazing OCC that year ( 4-0 against Lycoming, Kings, Brockport and Cortland with a 19-23 combined record).  Now we have to aks ourselves if Ithaca would have gotten in with 2 losses if they played Casleton St. and Mt. Ida instead of Cortland and Brockport.  I say no.

But like I also said, there has to be some middle ground as well.  Hobart has to look at their OCC and deciede on their chances.  They probably have a 30-40% chance of beating SJF and a 15-25% chance of beating Wesley.  Add in a 50% chance of winning the LL and there is a 32.5% chance they make the playoffs by scheduling Wesley instead of Mt. Ida (or nobody)

Discliamer: The percentages above are taken straight out of my ass

[lewdogg11]

TGP for probably the first time ever is agreeing with an Ithaca fan (JK - Bombers

TGP will go on the record that Hobart or probably most eastern region teams have absolutely (insert Dean Wormer voice here) a Zero.Point.Zero shot at winning a national championship in the foreseeable future, especially given how the NCAA has set up the playoff system, and that we have the "two-headed purple people eaters" running the table.

The latter is probably why you have coaches like Rochester's Greene going on the record that UWW and MUC shouldn't be in DIII, given their "recruiting practices" and other aspects of their programs don't "fit the mold" of DIII sports (trust me, TGP realizes this is debatable).

That said TGP doesn't want this to go into a DIV direction - BTW - interesting no one mentioned the obvious (i.e., if the MAC, LL, E8 or NJAC champ goes 9 or 10-0, then you'd at least see a team punch a ticket to the final four, but TGP digresses) but that's probably b/c we beat that one to death last November/December....

Schools like my alma mater, for better or for worse, tend to more interested in playing "like institutions", winning their conf title and making the playoffs.  To Frank's point, this is the system that the NCAA set up.  This is also why Hobart set up the Dickinson series and occasionally seemed to "avoid E8 schools".  Do I think this is the best policy as a fan?  No.  As an admissions or athletics administration guy?  Yes, per the commentary previously provided.

TGP thinks that a league championship and a playoff run given the current environment is a) realistic given the "rules" in play and b) makes the most financial sense (i.e., playoffs cost the school more money - it's not like you win a cash prize from the NCAA ala the BCS for hosting a playoff game) - unless the NCAA drastically changes the rules so that teams aren't penalized for playing "above their heads" during the regular season.

Anyway, it's only a "loser mentality" depending on your perspective.  TGP never doubted Hobart would lose vs. MUC back in 2008, but it was still a great experience to see how it panned out (in the playoffs).  As a fan TGP doesn't see why winning the LL and a playoff run or other league title is not a "worthy goal"?  The Saxon fans seemed pretty amped at their playoff run this season, but Pep is pretty amped most of the time anyway.

So, if you're "glass half empty, it probably seems like "settling", but given everything thing else, and the fact TGP prefers his glasses half full, TGP will take the aforementioned league champ/pool a option given how the current system is structured.

Your post is full of contradictions.  2 that stood out in the last 2 paragraphs...'TGP will take the aformentioned champ/pool a option'...  You can lose ALL OOC games and even 1 or 2 conference games and get your Pool A Bid so that doesn't make any sense.(See St. Lawrence 2010)

Then 'As a fan TGP doesn't see why winning the LL and a playoff run or other league title is not a "worthy goal"?'  The bottom line is, there will not be many 'playoff runs' for the teams that don't test themselves.  I think Hobart does a decent job of scheduling.  I even think Union does a good job.  But some other teams....not so much.  And they end up blowing a playoff game against an NJAC team down the stretch because of poor coaching decisions and cold feet.  Playing good teams is as important for the coaches as it is for the players. 

[Frank Rossi]

LD... Did you catch my "if I were an AD" discussion in my long post yesterday?  If so, do you agree or disagree with that approach?

[lewdogg11]

LD... Did you catch my "if I were an AD" discussion in my long post yesterday?  If so, do you agree or disagree with that approach?

Missed it.  It was really long so I read the first few and the last few.  Haha.