FB: Liberty League

[hazzben]

Listen, when you look at the costs and benefits of going Division 1, you should look at sport-by-sport concerns in the first place.  This is where the entire equation doesn't add up when I look at it:

This is why I always question the move overall.  I'm not saying anything that is RPI-specific beyond using its size and the fact that hockey is a nullity when I look at these numbers.  It's just a lot of money to throw at a scenario that, in many ways, doesn't do much to enhance the school's national reputation.  Remember, RPI has the same problem that Union and Springfield and many other schools have -- its surrounding location isn't very positive for reputational enhancement beyond academics.  I don't see how mediocrity at Division 1 improves that notion of the school at all.

A little late the conversation, but I'll throw my thoughts in anyway.
Frank's analysis is pretty strong. The one example I can think of out 'West' was a number of the major NCC schools transitioning from DII to DI a few years back (SDSU, USD, NDSU, UND and now UNO).

It was a snowball effect. Once one school decided to move up, the rest all followed because of the perceived 'prestige' of being DI. None of the schools wanted their in state rival to go DI while they stayed DII and became the little sister.

The problem is, these schools were the cream of the crop at the DII level. They had national championship caliber teams in multiple sports, with UND already fielding a quality DI hockey product. In going DI across the board they've essentially condemned themselves to national irrelevance. Yeah, I guess they get the 'prestige' of being DI, but it's as DI doormats. E.g. their basketball teams used to celebrate national titles as a great season, now a first rd NCAA tourney loss is reason to celebrate. Strong track, volleyball, softball and wrestling programs are lucky to even sniff post-season competition.

At UNO, their move to DI means their Mount Union-esq wrestling program, which just won another DII national title, is getting the axe. They simply can't afford the program if they're going to go DI in all the other sports, with the added scholarships and travel costs. Those athletes found out just days (hours??) after their National Title that their program was being cut because the school wanted the DI 'prestige.' Where I grew up SDSU, NDSU and UND in particular used to get great recruits, kids who'd say no to UNI and other FCS schools to play at the elite DII schools. Now going to those schools means you get your face mashed in non-con games against FBS schools (unless it's against Minnesota!!!) and finishing 7-5 is a great year. They are more irrelevant at the FCS level, even locally, than they were at the DII level. But hey, at least their athletes can claim they were DI right?!?

[SaintsFAN]

Senor RT reported to me last night that while at an Upstate NY bar, he overheard a guy telling girls how he got a full ride to play football for Springfield.  My response was, "Yeah, it's called Amtrak."  Now back to our regular programming.

is that all it takes to close the deal with the "talent" in Upstate NY?

[Knightstalker]

RIP Bubba Smith.  One of the greats of my youth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPm3l5przFI

[Knightstalker]

Another great Bubba Smith scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BJ7-_-omnU&feature=related

[Frank Rossi]

Some observations after casting my Top 25 ballot today for the preseason poll.

1) This was a harder job than last year.  There were a lot of teams that impressed toward the end of last season (like Bethel) -- and it's a tough question to consider whether or not a team like that can repeat the same success level with what they have coming back.

2) A lot of stronger teams from last year lose a lot to graduation.  Thus, we could see some pretty interesting regular season results for the first three weeks that might shake up the poll pretty boldly.

3) I see only one team that has a real chance to run the table in the East Region this year -- Cortland State.  I think between Cortland and Alfred, Cortland has a better crux returning after playing Alfred to a reasonably close game (not a barnburner, but not exactly a rout) in the playoffs last year.  Overall, I like Cortland's schedule better than Alfred's.  As for DelVal, only two returning starters on offense is an issue.  I see them losing a game somewhat early.  Problem is, even Cortland's schedule is rough in spots -- I foresee no undefeated teams in the "Big 4" East Region conferences (LL, E8, MAC, NJAC).  Get ready for Mount Union again.

4) My first point concerning the level of toughness to pick certain levels of teams did not occur when I picked #1 and #2.  I think we actually are more likely this year than we were at this point last year to see Mount Union/Whitewater in the Stagg Bowl.  I just don't see any team with enough parts out there that can dismantle either team -- especially with Mount Union returning 16 of 22 starters and Whitewater getting one more year from Coppage even with a large number of graduations.  For the time being, I have Mount Union ahead of Whitewater (last year, it was the opposite on my ballot all season) -- it is mainly based on the returning players (although Miller and Shorts will be big losses for the team).  I can't see Larry Kehres tolerating losing to Whitewater again this year -- he's going to have that team focused more than ever.

[hazzben]

Some observations after casting my Top 25 ballot today for the preseason poll.

1) This was a harder job than last year.  There were a lot of teams that impressed toward the end of last season (like Bethel) -- and it's a tough question to consider whether or not a team like that can repeat the same success level with what they have coming back.

2) A lot of stronger teams from last year lose a lot to graduation.  Thus, we could see some pretty interesting regular season results for the first three weeks that might shake up the poll pretty boldly.

3) I see only one team that has a real chance to run the table in the East Region this year -- Cortland State.  I think between Cortland and Alfred, Cortland has a better crux returning after playing Alfred to a reasonably close game (not a barnburner, but not exactly a rout) in the playoffs last year.  Overall, I like Cortland's schedule better than Alfred's.  As for DelVal, only two returning starters on offense is an issue.  I see them losing a game somewhat early.  Problem is, even Cortland's schedule is rough in spots -- I foresee no undefeated teams in the "Big 4" East Region conferences (LL, E8, MAC, NJAC).  Get ready for Mount Union again.

4) My first point concerning the level of toughness to pick certain levels of teams did not occur when I picked #1 and #2.  I think we actually are more likely this year than we were at this point last year to see Mount Union/Whitewater in the Stagg Bowl.  I just don't see any team with enough parts out there that can dismantle either team -- especially with Mount Union returning 16 of 22 starters and Whitewater getting one more year from Coppage even with a large number of graduations.  For the time being, I have Mount Union ahead of Whitewater (last year, it was the opposite on my ballot all season) -- it is mainly based on the returning players (although Miller and Shorts will be big losses for the team).  I can't see Larry Kehres tolerating losing to Whitewater again this year -- he's going to have that team focused more than ever.

Not that you care Frank, but here's a my brief take on what Bethel has coming back:

Positive: 4 O-Lineman, QB and solid Defensive core return. DII transfer RB is supposed to be something special. Top 2 WR's from last years pre-season return from injury. Questions: Do we have a kicker yet? Pearson (NG), Svhila (OLB), Petterson (ILB), Flaherty (CB), Johnson (DE) are All-MIAC holes to fill on D but I think the young guns got some good experience last year.

I'd agree with the UWW and Mount anaysis. UMU brings back a lot of young, talented guys. And I think LK is really burning to bring home some hardware again. UWW lsot some key players, but they seem to be getting to the point of reloading with some quality depth. They might have lost some experience, but I'm guessing the talent doesn't drop off. Not as long as LC is still carying most of the offensive load.

[Frank Rossi]

I do care a lot -- and I did give Bethel the benefit of the doubt.  The West was the hardest region to rank against its own teams and then inside the national scale.  The team that took the biggest leap on my ballot was one I would've never assumed before sitting down and researching -- Cal Lutheran.  They have a LOT back after a learning experience of a 2010 season.  Pac Lute, on the other hand, loses a host of players.  So, in all honesty, the West analysis took about double the amount of time of the rest of the regions.  However, based on it, I like Bethel's chances, even against a very good St. Thomas team.  That game is a coin toss again this year, I think.

[hazzben]

I do care a lot -- and I did give Bethel the benefit of the doubt.  The West was the hardest region to rank against its own teams and then inside the national scale.  The team that took the biggest leap on my ballot was one I would've never assumed before sitting down and researching -- Cal Lutheran.  They have a LOT back after a learning experience of a 2010 season.  Pac Lute, on the other hand, loses a host of players.  So, in all honesty, the West analysis took about double the amount of time of the rest of the regions.  However, based on it, I like Bethel's chances, even against a very good St. Thomas team.  That game is a coin toss again this year, I think.

Just to make clear, I wasn't implying you don't care about Bethel or the teams that you're ranking. I didn't word that very carefully. I was implying you may not care a whole lot about my random assessment of Bethel's preseason outlook. I reread that and realized it might come off like I was taking a dig at you. Not the case and I appreciate all the time you and the other guys put into things.

I'd agree on the UST - Bethel matchup. They showed last year just how evenly matched they were in the 2 games they split. They've both got some key pieces to replace but also return some very experienced and important players as well. And SJU, even with a new QB is never really out of the conversation. And that's just the MIAC. The IIAC and NWC races are always exciting and unpredictable. UWW will top the WIAC, but will there be a one loss runner up? And then the SCIAC, an Alex Tanney led Monmouth and the UMAC winner getting an AQ make for a wild west.

And that's just looking at the West. You've still got the East with a few sleepers that they always seem to have and all the cross pollinating that takes place by seasons end. The North with a strong Mount, North Central looking to prove they belong in the 'elite' conversation and the South with some reshuffling on the horizon. That's a ton to keep track of. And that's why they play the games and we can be thankful we get to prove it on the field.

[AUKaz00]

3) I see only one team that has a real chance to run the table in the East Region this year -- Cortland State.  I think between Cortland and Alfred, Cortland has a better crux returning after playing Alfred to a reasonably close game (not a barnburner, but not exactly a rout) in the playoffs last year.  Overall, I like Cortland's schedule better than Alfred's.  As for DelVal, only two returning starters on offense is an issue.  I see them losing a game somewhat early.  Problem is, even Cortland's schedule is rough in spots -- I foresee no undefeated teams in the "Big 4" East Region conferences (LL, E8, MAC, NJAC).  Get ready for Mount Union again.

Adding to this point, I think the Red Dragons are the odds-on-favorite to become the new Beast of the East.  5 playoff games sandwiched around an ECAC bowl over the past 3 years, a beautiful new stadium, Jets training camp and state tuition.  The mouth-breathing, knuckle-draggers should be a force for years to come.

[Doid23]

The mouth-breathing, knuckle-draggers should be a force for years to come.

That there comment will get you some karma. +K

[dlippiel]

The mouth-breathing, knuckle-draggers should be a force for years to come.

That there comment will get you some karma. +K

ate

Taking into account famous alum The Red Dragons can't miss  .

[dlippiel]

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/08/preseason-top-25

Some thoughts:

1, 2, 3 seem familiar and will most likely prove to hold their ground in 11'. Del Val who defeated a good Salisbury team and then lost to MUC in last season's playoffs would seemingly come in higher than 26 but as Frank stated The Aggies return only 2 starters on O which should definitely cause some growing pains. The East coming in at 12, 13, 18, and 22 is fair yet Montclair may be a tad high at 12 but dlip would really only have them 3 or 4 spots lower. dlip thinks Cortland is the obvious favorite in the east but  feels that The Profs may actually make a push this year, possibly reminiscent of years past. Alfred is a hard read for dlip after losing to a somewhat listless RPI last year but playing solid FB in the playoffs. dlip really likes the Saxons but just questions their ability to be a standout team from week 1 all the way through.

dlip also notices Salisbury (who some E8ers may be doubting) comes in receiving 55 votes (second of all E8 teams). The gulls may make more of a splash than many E8 fans realize with their 2011 campaign as a new member of the E8. How long will their stay in the E8 last? Who knows, but dlip assures all in the E8, this team will make some noise, just ask Wesley.

dlip has yet to mention his second love (The Pride of Springfield) and their trip opt offense that he loves so much. The Pride gets 29 votes in the pre-season poll, third out of all E8 teams, and looks to dominate on the carpet this year like no other since Chris Sharpe's graduation. We shall see what Josh Carter (Sr QB) can do under center and how the defense corps adjusts in 2011.

Liberty League thoughts:

As far as league strength goes this may be another tough year for the LL in regards to the so-called "Big Four Conferences" of the east.
-Bart may not shine as bright as in the past on a national level, RPI, well dlip really does not know what to expect from the Engineers in 2011. He has heard many times this off-season that there is talent there; we shall see what the boys in Troy can make of it playing their second season in that beautiful stadium.
-Union, dlip's true love, will struggle in 2011 but should eclipse their two win season in 2010. Much of the O rests on Drew Connelly's shoulders and hopefully Connor Gallo (an excellent athlete) can make some noise running both short and long patterns. His brother Justin may or may not be back (dlip has no info on this just hearsay), if the elder Gallo does return look for him and Drew to put up legit numbers on the stat sheet (more on Union to come from dlip in another post).
-WPI, well they are WPI and looking at their schedule dlip can only hope they take care of their OOC games against their rival Worcester State and Becker. They also play Merrimack a team dlip knows nothing about at all. It seems WPI struggles in LL play every year and this year should not be much different. U of R plays a great schedule but will have a tough time with CWR and SJF. If there is a year to beat SJF it is this year. The Cardinals may not be as strong as in years past. As far as LL play goes, dlip cannot say. All he knows is that year in and year out the Yellowjackets show some flashes of brilliance but never live up to their true potential.
-SLU straight up struggles and MMA's 2011 season will parallel last years campaign.
-As far as Bart goes they begin 11' with two foes in Dickenson and SJF. I look for Bart to take both contests and at least give the LL a decent two win start against two decent OOC teams. Bart wins the league hands down this year but will exit the NCAA's in the first round.
-Overall the LL will not be on par with years past and again we may have the debate about the conference either being very weak or parity running rampant.

[Doid23]

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/08/preseason-top-25


-Union, dlip's true love, will struggle in 2011 but should eclipse their two win season in 2010.

Well, it's officially one hundred and wtf down here in Dallas, so I'm a little cranky. But if they don't win 4 games this year, I'm pulling my donation to Union Athletics.  All $250 of it. I aint kidding, I'll do it.

And yes, the level of expectations for the Dutchmen has fallen to a sad level. Talk about lowering the bar...

[Doid23]

The mouth-breathing, knuckle-draggers should be a force for years to come.

That there comment will get you some karma. +K

ate

Taking into account famous alum The Red Dragons can't miss  .

I'm actually growing more fond of the big oaf every time I see that pig snooki. Maybe we should let him loose on the assorted "Housewives of" casts, that I would watch.

[dlippiel]

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/08/preseason-top-25


-Union, dlip's true love, will struggle in 2011 but should eclipse their two win season in 2010.

Well, it's officially one hundred and wtf down here in Dallas, so I'm a little cranky. But if they don't win 4 games this year, I'm pulling my donation to Union Athletics.  All $250 of it. I aint kidding, I'll do it.

And yes, the level of expectations for the Dutchmen has fallen to a sad level. Talk about lowering the bar...

dlip hears you doid it has been quite frustrating. dlip is just gonna try and stay real positive. He occasionally has to refer to the 2010 schedule/results about once a week to believe that the Dutchman only won 2 games last year. ****, that does not sound right, I need to check the 2010 schedule/results again...