FB: Liberty League

[pumkinattack]

I hope it's Hobart, but there's a chance that UofR is pretty good this year.  I completely discounted one or two Cortland fans talking about a scrimmage - we've both crapped on and been crapped on by Brockport (back in the day, when they had better talent than they have the past five or so years), only to see a reversal of fortunes during the season. 

Don't know if Case is really any good this year; they've put together a number of strong seasons, but a lot of that came with an all world QB (better than probably anyone the LL's seen in a decade or more), but it looks like a nice early win for them on paper.  For Hobart, who knows, but there is talent there as good as any team from the 2000's if the QB situation is resolved (I think so) and the DL plays well and gets pressure (I think they've resolved that as well).  I can say this Dickinson win is very different from last year's in that the running game just ground them down in the second half and earned the points (Dickinson's avg field position has to have been on our side of the 50).

[dlippiel]

... it doesn't look like the LL is very strong this year. 
So, I think, even with losing by 31 to Alfred, RPI still has a good shot to compete for the LL title.  especially with what appears to be a terrible league once again this year.  The LL needs to get it together.  It's getting embarrassing.  Like NEFC embarrassing.

I agree. I was thinking how disappointing both of Union's losses were, and that it may be a long season, but after two weeks, I'm not going to rule Union out of winning the LL. I see that as highly unlikely, but the league may be that bad this year. I am actually hoping that Hobart can rise above this and prove that they are a team that can represent the LL well in the NCAA's, because at this point, I don't see any other teams who are able to do that. Truly disappointing.

Thank god the Jet's were nice enough to allow the Cowboys to give them a game last night, and Notre Dame decided to play for 3 quarters (and allow for one of the great 4th quarters in that games history), or this would be a tough start to a season for my teams.

To dlip, at this point already, there is no debate regarding the LL's lack of strength nationally, it is clearly a very weak conference. dlip is also embarassed for the league but for his own sanity he has moved more towards acceptance at this point. Honestly, it is what it is and it does not look like it is going to change at all. One thing seems certain though the league title is wide open and this may be a very exciting year within the LL itself. dlip knows he is really looking forward to it. He has Bart taking the LL cake and after the Pumpkinheads punching Dickinson in the mouth (week #1) he remains somewhat hopeful that Bart may represent the LL well.

[Frank Rossi]

Couple things to think about here:

- Salve Regina on the road against now-#10 Montclaire:  18-7 Monclair.  Montclair's strength is defense, no doubt.  However, the offense only could put up 18 against the same Salve team that, at home, allowed 22 against Union.  The obvious weakness for Union shows in the defense -- but the fact that Union outscored Montclair against the same team on the road vs. at home is at least somewhat telling about Union's relative strength on one side of the ball (especially if a rushing game remains intact).  The defense needs to step up, no doubt.

- WPI stepped into the same bog that I think RPI might have stepped into by scheduling a team way too over their heads first instead of second or third.  The Merrimack game did nothing to help WPI, and I predicted a touchdown victory by Worcester State in a rivalry game.  For RPI, scheduling happened at a time when the team didn't know how good Alfred would be, but it would've made more sense to start with Castleton to begin gearing up the team (we discussed this point on ITH last night).  Again, scheduling does mean a lot in the first three weeks of the season.

- Only 1 Liberty League team was blown out this weekend.  Worcester State won by 7 over WPI.  Utica won by 1 over Union.  Obviously, nationally-ranked Alfred blew out RPI.  On the flip side, SLU won by 15 over Norwich.  MMA beat Coast Guard by 7.  Rochester beat Case by 10.  My point here is that when you look at Week 2's matchups and perceived relative strengths, we actually had extremely equivalent matchups even before the games were played.  The LL didn't underperform the overall expectations from where I sit, as a whole.  I think Week 3's matchups represent a couple challenges and a couple softballs.  Union/Ithaca will be a challenge for Union, although, I still believe it's a game that could go either way (no 10-point favorite, as we remember, is how I define this).  SLU at Alfred is decisively in the "Alfred as favorite" column.  The Courage Bowl still remains with "Fisher as favorite" despite the Bengals game this past weekend.  On the other end, WPI should crush Becker, RPI should also crush Castleton, and the best game on paper is Maritime hosting MMA.  I expect very mixed results this weekend, with the LL potentially going 4-2 overall.

Long story short, I think this past weekend was the best indicator so far as to the LL's relative strength -- is it #19?  No.  Is it #10?  No.  It's trending more toward #15 -- the truth laying somewhere in the middle, I believe. 

[EDIT:  With all due respect, dlip, the Rochester and MMA games and the fact that SLU won an OOC game should also give you a little "glass is half full" insight here.  You're focusing on Union a lot, I think -- maybe RPI, too.  Even without Hobart this weekend, the LL went 3-3 -- definitely a better week than most over the last couple seasons.  This is not an overnight sensation scenario.]

[dlippiel]

Thoughts on Union's tough loss to Utica:
-Drew Connelly had a very good game, he did not throw a pick and showed some excellent poise and leadership throughout the game. Obviously he was not connecting on the final drive, but overall dlip takes his hat off to Drew.
-Dylan Schuck 25-107; Darnel Thomas 4-22; Tim Mogan 7-22: Some nice #'s here and distibution of the ball. dlip also thought Tim Hershey had an nice game.
-Union's recievers were solid, Justin Gallo was exceptional, his brother came through with a few nice catches, and Zavadsky had a nice catch as well. dlip is also high on Chase Richey as well. dlip is very happy with Union's receiving core and run game thus far.
-Union's defense is killing them and dlip does not know if it is because of a lack of effort or what??? The kids look like they are playing their asses off but they are just not taking care of their assignments. To dlip this is coaching, and as much as dlip hates to call out a coach he feels this defensive core has not been getting the leadership it needs to take care of buisness.
-The secondary was atrocious giving up 337 yards through the air. Granted it was to an excellent passer but it was way to easy for Beckwitt. If dlip was an opponent of Union's he would throw the ball all day long and into the night as well. Union has some talent in that secondary but it must be taught how to read, react, and cover to not only deter passes but stop gains after passes are caught.

-Just some thoughts and dlip is not trying to be negative because to him there is a lot more to be positive about and he is trying to be. he supports Union and it's players and staff 150% but also is trying to objectivly question and diagnose some of the problems they are having.

[dlippiel]

[EDIT:  With all due respect, dlip, the Rochester and MMA games and the fact that SLU won an OOC game should also give you a little "glass is half full" insight here.  You're focusing on Union a lot, I think -- maybe RPI, too.  Even without Hobart this weekend, the LL went 3-3 -- definitely a better week than most over the last couple seasons.  This is not an overnight sensation scenario.]

Very true Frank and believe dlip you always show him respect. dlip has a lot to learn and feels he has learned ten-fold from you since he has been on these boards. He is appreciative of that! dlip is just trying to meet somewhere here in the middle ya know. dlip apologizes if he did not give enough props to the likes of SLU, MMA, and U of R for their victories this weekend. They were solid, especially MMA taking out rival Coast Guard and U of R taking down CWR. dlip also talked to a Norwich parent who was quite impressed with SLU's performance. We do have some things to be happy about here and maybe we should focus on those more. dlip will try to be more objective and look at the glass half full. He does still feel though that in relation to the rest of the nation the LL may very well be at #19 top to bottom. As dlip stated earlier he is very excited for the LL season and feels it will be very entertaining. Either way the players in the LL are playing their butts off and for that dlip is a fan forever.

*Frank dlip is working at taking the garnet colored glassed off it is just hard for him. You have been at this a very long time and can do so very well at times. dlip is taking baby steps brother. Trying to be honest, positive, and objective at the same time about something one loves is tough.

[Bombers798891]

Union/Ithaca will be a challenge for Union, although, I still believe it's a game that could go either way (no 10-point favorite, as we remember, is how I define this). 

This game against Ithaca is going to be very, very, interesting. The Bombers are dealing with a QB disaster unlike anything we've seen since Ryan Steenberg was thrown under the bus by his own teammate back in 2002 (In his defense, he was a good LB), but they are going up against a Union defense allowing 450 YPG. Union's offense is clicking, but IC has a better defense than Utica (and Salve, IMO).

A lot depends on if Will Carter returns in the middle for Ithaca, and if they are settled at QB. It seems like Hendel is the guy. He saw most of the action at QB last week, and has done less active sabotaging of the offense. If nothing else, his legs put him over the top, as he's run for 64 yards on 10 carries (removing sack yardage), Ultimately, however, the offense looks a lot worse than advertised--even accounting for Salisbury being really good on defense. Suffice to say, I expect a low scoring affair.

But let's be honest. Ithaca is, most likely, going to finish 5th or 6th in the E8. Union beating them at home in a semi-close game (or worse, losing to them in a close game) won't mean much if Alfred wins in a blowout (as I suspect they will) and Fisher beats Rochester--which may not happen.

To me, what the LL needs is this:

Union beats Ithaca handily, something like 27-10. St. Lawrence keeps it semi-respectable against Alfred, maybe 38-14, and Rochester beats Fisher.

Something that I think may hold the LL back is that so few of their teams play 10-game regular-season schedules. I'm not assigning blame, I know in some cases, it's no-one's fault. But the reality is, four of the seven teams only play nine games and this season, one plays eight. Last season, four of the seven teams played 9 games in the regular season. So over this year and last year, the LL has lost out on 10 OOC opportunities. That's a full season's worth of games.

That makes it tougher to prove yourself, because you're losing out on OOC opportunities that, if you win, can raise the profile of the league. And this is personal bias, but I've always had a little more trouble taking those teams at the same level. It's probably a residual effect from the 2001 RPI-IC playoff game (and yes, RPI beat IC two years later after playing a nine game regular season)

I wish the LL would get more of their teams on the 10-game schedule. I think it would help

[Frank Rossi]

More on Ithaca/Union later -- want a full keyboard for that.

Dlip, here's why I have to challenge you a bit -- what can you tell me about the 18 conferences ahead of the LL, especially those ranked 10-18?  As we watch the results from the past couple weekends, things are not exactly robust across the nation right now.  Parity seems to be the operative in a lot of leagues.  The difference between 14 to 20 was probably razor thin in many cases -- so that's where I'm saying the LL would excel in rankings overall right now (14/15).  Nobody is making the claim that the LL is better than the E8, especially since the LL has held onto teams like WPI, MMA and SLU through thick and thin and isn't interested in instability every two years.  Kean's win against Wesley justifies some of my remarks concerning the E8 vs. the NJAC earlier in the month.  I didn't make those same arguments regarding the LL and the E8 or NJAC.

[pumkinattack]

Union/Ithaca will be a challenge for Union, although, I still believe it's a game that could go either way (no 10-point favorite, as we remember, is how I define this). 

This game against Ithaca is going to be very, very, interesting. The Bombers are dealing with a QB disaster unlike anything we've seen since Ryan Steenberg was thrown under the bus by his own teammate back in 2002 (In his defense, he was a good LB), but they are going up against a Union defense allowing 450 YPG. Union's offense is clicking, but IC has a better defense than Utica (and Salve, IMO).

A lot depends on if Will Carter returns in the middle for Ithaca, and if they are settled at QB. It seems like Hendel is the guy. He saw most of the action at QB last week, and has done less active sabotaging of the offense. If nothing else, his legs put him over the top, as he's run for 64 yards on 10 carries (removing sack yardage), Ultimately, however, the offense looks a lot worse than advertised--even accounting for Salisbury being really good on defense. Suffice to say, I expect a low scoring affair.

But let's be honest. Ithaca is, most likely, going to finish 5th or 6th in the E8. Union beating them at home in a semi-close game (or worse, losing to them in a close game) won't mean much if Alfred wins in a blowout (as I suspect they will) and Fisher beats Rochester--which may not happen.

To me, what the LL needs is this:

Union beats Ithaca handily, something like 27-10. St. Lawrence keeps it semi-respectable against Alfred, maybe 38-14, and Rochester beats Fisher.

Something that I think may hold the LL back is that so few of their teams play 10-game regular-season schedules. I'm not assigning blame, I know in some cases, it's no-one's fault. But the reality is, four of the seven teams only play nine games and this season, one plays eight. Last season, four of the seven teams played 9 games in the regular season. So over this year and last year, the LL has lost out on 10 OOC opportunities. That's a full season's worth of games.

That makes it tougher to prove yourself, because you're losing out on OOC opportunities that, if you win, can raise the profile of the league. And this is personal bias, but I've always had a little more trouble taking those teams at the same level. It's probably a residual effect from the 2001 RPI-IC playoff game (and yes, RPI beat IC two years later after playing a nine game regular season)

I wish the LL would get more of their teams on the 10-game schedule. I think it would help

It might be your bias re: 9 game schedule because sometimes it's got as much to do with who you're playing.  Like you're RPI example, Hobart was no better in 2007 than they were in 2006 or 2005, but added Alfred to a home and home and whipped up on them, which at the time they were ranked like 11th or 12th in the D3 poll (I think they los 2 of 3 or something after the bart game to close out the season).  So 10 games vs. 9 only tells you that you're better than one more team (presuming a win).  Very few teams that play 3 OOC games play them all against top notch talent, so a tune up game that pads your record doesn't demonstrate strength (though a bad loss can demostrate weakness). 

All that being said, I think you're generally on track (though I think you're sandbagging on IC's prospects a little since it's clearly not going to be a great year, so why not set up expectations to be surprised to the upside) as far as the LL goes.  I don't think that UofR needs to do anything but win vs SJF.  For years the SJF faithful have been claiming that a 7pt win is great against UofR because it's a rivarly, even when UofR might've been 2-8 and SJF was top 10, so by that same logic, UofR doesn't need to win by more than 1 since it's a rivalry game (I sort of don't buy this, but it's been postulated by many on the E8 boards over the past 2-3 years).  Here's the problem, if UofR and Bart beat SJF (big if, but play this out), then that quickly ceases to be a quality win.  Bottom line is that the LL doesn't play enough Eastern non E8, NEFC, ECFC teams (i.e. MAC, NJAC, even a little CC or UAA play).  We all overlap, so two LL wins vs an E8 team automatically makes it not a quality win (unless you're Alfred and lose to two mediocre LL teams while ripping through you're own conference). 

[Bombers798891]

Union/Ithaca will be a challenge for Union, although, I still believe it's a game that could go either way (no 10-point favorite, as we remember, is how I define this). 

This game against Ithaca is going to be very, very, interesting. The Bombers are dealing with a QB disaster unlike anything we've seen since Ryan Steenberg was thrown under the bus by his own teammate back in 2002 (In his defense, he was a good LB), but they are going up against a Union defense allowing 450 YPG. Union's offense is clicking, but IC has a better defense than Utica (and Salve, IMO).

A lot depends on if Will Carter returns in the middle for Ithaca, and if they are settled at QB. It seems like Hendel is the guy. He saw most of the action at QB last week, and has done less active sabotaging of the offense. If nothing else, his legs put him over the top, as he's run for 64 yards on 10 carries (removing sack yardage), Ultimately, however, the offense looks a lot worse than advertised--even accounting for Salisbury being really good on defense. Suffice to say, I expect a low scoring affair.

But let's be honest. Ithaca is, most likely, going to finish 5th or 6th in the E8. Union beating them at home in a semi-close game (or worse, losing to them in a close game) won't mean much if Alfred wins in a blowout (as I suspect they will) and Fisher beats Rochester--which may not happen.

To me, what the LL needs is this:

Union beats Ithaca handily, something like 27-10. St. Lawrence keeps it semi-respectable against Alfred, maybe 38-14, and Rochester beats Fisher.

Something that I think may hold the LL back is that so few of their teams play 10-game regular-season schedules. I'm not assigning blame, I know in some cases, it's no-one's fault. But the reality is, four of the seven teams only play nine games and this season, one plays eight. Last season, four of the seven teams played 9 games in the regular season. So over this year and last year, the LL has lost out on 10 OOC opportunities. That's a full season's worth of games.

That makes it tougher to prove yourself, because you're losing out on OOC opportunities that, if you win, can raise the profile of the league. And this is personal bias, but I've always had a little more trouble taking those teams at the same level. It's probably a residual effect from the 2001 RPI-IC playoff game (and yes, RPI beat IC two years later after playing a nine game regular season)

I wish the LL would get more of their teams on the 10-game schedule. I think it would help

It might be your bias re: 9 game schedule because sometimes it's got as much to do with who you're playing.  Like you're RPI example, Hobart was no better in 2007 than they were in 2006 or 2005, but added Alfred to a home and home and whipped up on them, which at the time they were ranked like 11th or 12th in the D3 poll (I think they los 2 of 3 or something after the bart game to close out the season).  So 10 games vs. 9 only tells you that you're better than one more team (presuming a win).  Very few teams that play 3 OOC games play them all against top notch talent, so a tune up game that pads your record doesn't demonstrate strength (though a bad loss can demostrate weakness). 

All that being said, I think you're generally on track (though I think you're sandbagging on IC's prospects a little since it's clearly not going to be a great year, so why not set up expectations to be surprised to the upside) as far as the LL goes.  I don't think that UofR needs to do anything but win vs SJF.  For years the SJF faithful have been claiming that a 7pt win is great against UofR because it's a rivarly, even when UofR might've been 2-8 and SJF was top 10, so by that same logic, UofR doesn't need to win by more than 1 since it's a rivalry game (I sort of don't buy this, but it's been postulated by many on the E8 boards over the past 2-3 years).  Here's the problem, if UofR and Bart beat SJF (big if, but play this out), then that quickly ceases to be a quality win.  Bottom line is that the LL doesn't play enough Eastern non E8, NEFC, ECFC teams (i.e. MAC, NJAC, even a little CC or UAA play).  We all overlap, so two LL wins vs an E8 team automatically makes it not a quality win (unless you're Alfred and lose to two mediocre LL teams while ripping through you're own conference).

I'm not sure I'm sandbagging really. IC finished 4th in the E8 last year, and that was pre-Salisbury. So it's pretty easy to slide them into the 5 spot considering Salisbury was the preseason favorite--and beat the Bombers. Have you seen anything that indicates that they are going to finish higher than Springfield, Fisher, Alfred, or Salisbury? Sixth might be a bit of a sandbag, but while I won't predict IC to lose to Utica, it wouldn't shock me at this point

[pumkinattack]

Nothing would shock me either (other than WPI winning the LL, even in a down year), but I look at the E8 with a lot of unknowns and say it's 1A.  AU, 1B.  Salisbury, 3. (tie) SJF/IC/Springfield/Utica. 

Then again, you're talking about losing to a team that's lost 8 in a row, 9 of the last 11 and is 27-22 in the past five years not counting this year's 0-2 record(Union).  That looks like Hartwick at an average of 5.4-4.4 (W/L) and I think you'd be predicting a win against Hartwick, even this year. 

To your point about a Union win over IC this year I do agree that it's pretty meaningless if you assume 2-4 conference losses (and then possibly Cortaca as well), other than two greats from a time when Def Leoppard and Poison were hot commodities.  Fact is, the AU-RPI game, and possibly the two shots against SJF (assuming a split with the LL and SJF performing well in the E8), there aren't many opportunities for the LL to "prove" itself until playoff time. 

It 'aint looking good so far though. 

[dlippiel]

More on Ithaca/Union later -- want a full keyboard for that.

Dlip, here's why I have to challenge you a bit -- what can you tell me about the 18 conferences ahead of the LL, especially those ranked 10-18?  As we watch the results from the past couple weekends, things are not exactly robust across the nation right now.  Parity seems to be the operative in a lot of leagues.  The difference between 14 to 20 was probably razor thin in many cases -- so that's where I'm saying the LL would excel in rankings overall right now (14/15).  Nobody is making the claim that the LL is better than the E8, especially since the LL has held onto teams like WPI, MMA and SLU through thick and thin and isn't interested in instability every two years.  Kean's win against Wesley justifies some of my remarks concerning the E8 vs. the NJAC earlier in the month.  I didn't make those same arguments regarding the LL and the E8 or NJAC.

Well said Frank and there in lyes dlip's weakness regarding the argument is his lack of knowledge and experience with some of the other conferences in D3. Guess if this is the case maybe he shouldn't make statements that put the LL in 19th. dlip does, at times, make assumptions on here based upon already researched information by the site. However, as one with very little free time to read up on and go out and watch many other conferences dlip tends to take d3.com's word regarding the ranking of the league and the relative strength of other leagues across the nation. On top of this, when the LL's conference champion from last year gets smoked by a good Utica team and hardly beats an O.K. ECFC team and the leagues overal record against two of the weakest conferences in the region is below .500 dlip tends to support D3.com's placement of the LL at 19th. From this dlip can see that maybe before making such statements that seem to put down a team and/or league with the sound of certainty, he should either do his own research before
or just say he does not have enough experience and/or knowledge of the subject to do so. Honestly, dlip really hopes your thoughts are the case!

[Frank Rossi]

Union/Ithaca will be a challenge for Union, although, I still believe it's a game that could go either way (no 10-point favorite, as we remember, is how I define this). 

This game against Ithaca is going to be very, very, interesting. The Bombers are dealing with a QB disaster unlike anything we've seen since Ryan Steenberg was thrown under the bus by his own teammate back in 2002 (In his defense, he was a good LB), but they are going up against a Union defense allowing 450 YPG. Union's offense is clicking, but IC has a better defense than Utica (and Salve, IMO).

A lot depends on if Will Carter returns in the middle for Ithaca, and if they are settled at QB. It seems like Hendel is the guy. He saw most of the action at QB last week, and has done less active sabotaging of the offense. If nothing else, his legs put him over the top, as he's run for 64 yards on 10 carries (removing sack yardage), Ultimately, however, the offense looks a lot worse than advertised--even accounting for Salisbury being really good on defense. Suffice to say, I expect a low scoring affair.

But let's be honest. Ithaca is, most likely, going to finish 5th or 6th in the E8. Union beating them at home in a semi-close game (or worse, losing to them in a close game) won't mean much if Alfred wins in a blowout (as I suspect they will) and Fisher beats Rochester--which may not happen.

To me, what the LL needs is this:

Union beats Ithaca handily, something like 27-10. St. Lawrence keeps it semi-respectable against Alfred, maybe 38-14, and Rochester beats Fisher.

Something that I think may hold the LL back is that so few of their teams play 10-game regular-season schedules. I'm not assigning blame, I know in some cases, it's no-one's fault. But the reality is, four of the seven teams only play nine games and this season, one plays eight. Last season, four of the seven teams played 9 games in the regular season. So over this year and last year, the LL has lost out on 10 OOC opportunities. That's a full season's worth of games.

That makes it tougher to prove yourself, because you're losing out on OOC opportunities that, if you win, can raise the profile of the league. And this is personal bias, but I've always had a little more trouble taking those teams at the same level. It's probably a residual effect from the 2001 RPI-IC playoff game (and yes, RPI beat IC two years later after playing a nine game regular season)

I wish the LL would get more of their teams on the 10-game schedule. I think it would help

Bombers, I actually like your rhetoric on the boards, so I'm not trying to sound like an a'hole here, even if it seems to come across that way.  That said...

Three weeks ago, you tried to tear me a new one concerning Union, Drew Connolly and the nature of this upcoming game.  Unfortunately, as someone who called the Union/Utica game last weekend, I have a perspective concerning "big names" in D3 football and the perception attached to them regardless of record.  Utica fans (who made the near side jam-packed in the stands) acted like they were playing for the Super Bowl Saturday night.  Never mind that Union lost seven in a row to that point -- it was still the 800lb. gorilla their team was playing.  If Union had changed its name to Bob Smith University and played under identical circumstances, BSU would've likely won that game.  That's what name recognition and historical success can do on the football field.

In the same light, Union plays ITHACA this weekend.  Yes, the same team that has come into the game with a certain swagger over the last couple years.  The team that used to refuse to even put its name into ECAC consideration -- maybe because the team was too good for that... Maybe because of budget... Who knows?  The same team that still yelps about the shootout in the 2005 playoffs and who trash talked their way through the week prior to the earlier Ithaca/Union ECAC matchup.

So, a one-point win would be meaningless for Union?  Give me a break.  It would carry a LOT of meaning heading into the crucial LL schedule.  It would mean a lot to a quarterback who you stated was a lesser player than two quarterbacks who never started a game prior to the season.  It would mean a lot to a conference which is perceived to be 15 slots below Ithaca's conference since the two teams are viewed by some as equal in pegging in their respective conferences.  This game is huge.  This game is a pick'em.  So was Notre Dame/Michigan to many people.  Nobody moved from the Big House Saturday night after the game was over.  Just because a game is equal on paper does not reduce the meaning of a game.

Distance yourself all you want from three weeks ago and the positions you held -- but it doesn't change the reality that, at least for Union, beating a historically strong team like Ithaca would be a huge lift emotionally and preparation-wise for the remainder of the season.  Just like Union had a bullseye on its back the other night at Utica based on name alone, so does Ithaca, regardless of record.  For some reason, I think that Ithaca views Union in the same light -- and that's what makes this game begin to smell like an unpredictable rivalry game.

[dlippiel]

There is no queston to dlip that this game is a rivalry game and a big one at that. True neither historically rich program is in the top 25 or even favored to finish top two in their respective conferences. Frank makes a very strong point here though, this is Union/Ithaca and regardless of current team situations this game is big for both. If Ithaca loses, it loses to a 2 loss team from a weaker conference that happens to be in it's worse slump in 30 years. This is not a game Ithaca wants to lose, and dlip guarentees if you were to ask ANY of the Bombers they are pumped up and focused on getting some mometum and a W over a traditional regional rival in Union College. In Union's case even with two loses and Ithaca being 1-1 this game, at home, holds the opportunity to actually rein in all of the talk about the programs downfall and present it's fans and the LL with some hope. dlip would go as far as to argue that a Union victory this weekend would hold more water for Union than two years ago when the Bombers walked onto Frank Bailey field with a national #8 ranking. Union has great opportunity here. With a loss, many will say Union could still compete for the LL title. To dlip, if Union loses on Saturday some realists (not dlip) may literally condem the Dutchmen to a fallen program that will need a major overhaul to have any chance to get back to where it was for so many years. To dlip, this game is huge, it's a rivalry that is still fresh, still important, and still has the Dutchmen and Bombers walking onto the field with loads of history and two names that still hold much respect and power in East Region football.

[Bombers798891]

Bombers, I actually like your rhetoric on the boards, so I'm not trying to sound like an a'hole here, even if it seems to come across that way.  That said...

Three weeks ago, you tried to tear me a new one concerning Union, Drew Connolly and the nature of this upcoming game.  Unfortunately, as someone who called the Union/Utica game last weekend, I have a perspective concerning "big names" in D3 football and the perception attached to them regardless of record.  Utica fans (who made the near side jam-packed in the stands) acted like they were playing for the Super Bowl Saturday night.  Never mind that Union lost seven in a row to that point -- it was still the 800lb. gorilla their team was playing.  If Union had changed its name to Bob Smith University and played under identical circumstances, BSU would've likely won that game.  That's what name recognition and historical success can do on the football field.

In the same light, Union plays ITHACA this weekend.  Yes, the same team that has come into the game with a certain swagger over the last couple years.  The team that used to refuse to even put its name into ECAC consideration -- maybe because the team was too good for that... Maybe because of budget... Who knows?  The same team that still yelps about the shootout in the 2005 playoffs and who trash talked their way through the week prior to the earlier Ithaca/Union ECAC matchup.

So, a one-point win would be meaningless for Union?  Give me a break.  It would carry a LOT of meaning heading into the crucial LL schedule.  It would mean a lot to a quarterback who you stated was a lesser player than two quarterbacks who never started a game prior to the season.  It would mean a lot to a conference which is perceived to be 15 slots below Ithaca's conference since the two teams are viewed by some as equal in pegging in their respective conferences.  This game is huge.  This game is a pick'em.  So was Notre Dame/Michigan to many people.  Nobody moved from the Big House Saturday night after the game was over.  Just because a game is equal on paper does not reduce the meaning of a game.

Distance yourself all you want from three weeks ago and the positions you held -- but it doesn't change the reality that, at least for Union, beating a historically strong team like Ithaca would be a huge lift emotionally and preparation-wise for the remainder of the season.  Just like Union had a bullseye on its back the other night at Utica based on name alone, so does Ithaca, regardless of record.  For some reason, I think that Ithaca views Union in the same light -- and that's what makes this game begin to smell like an unpredictable rivalry game.

Frank, Ithaca's attitude heading into the 2005 NCAA game, or the previous ECAC game, which was, I think, 1999 (?) means pretty little to gauging how the relative strength of the LL would improve with a win. Isn't that what we were talking about? How the LL has fallen on hard time, and how they could get back on track? There is a VERY good chance Ithaca's 40-year streak of winning seasons comes to an end this year if they lose to Union.

I know what you're getting at with the historical thing. I was interviewing Lance Leipold on the phone for something for my full-time job, and he brought up IC's three titles. Obviously, with my user name, I understand IC's history. But if you know me Frank, you know that I think that's overrated nonsense. Not just with Ithaca, but with anyone. Ithaca hasn't been a national power in 15 years. They haven't been a regional player since, when, 2003? I think "It's a rivalry" makes for a great soundbyte and newspaper quote, but I don't know what a win over a clearly not good IC team says about the talent level.

But I wasn't talking so much about the significance of it in an emotional way. I was strictly speaking as to "Would beating Ithaca make me think Union has significantly improved as a football team from last year?" The answer to that is no, but that's not a slight on Union as much as it is on Ithaca. Now, that doesn't mean Union isn't better. It just means it's going to take more than the IC game to convince me because well, Ithaca sort of stinks.

In 2004, when Fisher beat Ithaca for the first time since that rivalry kicked up, they did it against a team that was arguably Mike Welch's best team. Then, for good measure, they kicked the crap out of his 2008 team, another one that might have been his best. They beat a 2007 team that made the NCAA playoffs and put a brief (very brief) scare into MUC, and they did it on the road. To me, what made those wins by Fisher significant was that they came against really good IC teams, and many were blowouts.

Yes, perhaps I will need to eat crow regarding Union-Ithaca. But that's what happens sometimes when you make a prediction about one team winning. I'm okay with being wrong. I'm okay with my initial impression of Connolly and the Bombers offense being too optimistic. It happens.

[lewdogg11]

The derby started calmly; there were no violent clashes between Romanisti and Laziali; the only clashes were against the police.  Both us and the Lazio fans were peaceful in the stadium. The problems originated from the cani sciolti (groups of teenagers) without tickets who exploited situations in order to enter the stadium free. They started throwing stones and running around provoking a brutal police response. At around 8.30 p.m. when the first half was nearly ended, the rumour that one such youngster was dead was believed by everyone because the conditions for this tragedy to happen were believable.

The police had lined up armoured vehicles outside the ground. The most **** in their method were the Guardia di Finanza who are not usually used for this kind of operation, so when they helped the police with their batons they were the most brutal. They used armoured vehicles to
disperse the crowd driving at 50-70 km per hour... under the circumstances the rumour that a youth had been killed by them was plausible. It was possible that a kid stumbled in front of the armoured vehicle. In all this chaos and 'guerrilla climate' the police charged the curve sud because many exploited the occasion to enter without paying. The police then opened the gate that joins the Tribuna Tevere and 40 riot police charged and struck indiscriminately those in the piazza. They were unlucky because all the UltraS were already in the curve so they answered with violence; the police were cornered, and even the DIGOS with the surveillance cameras were beaten; all the [curve] stood united against 40-50 police who left but upon leaving made threatening gestures meaning 'we will see each other after'.

At 9.00 p.m. when the situation calmed and the crowd was watching the match they – 200 police – came back in riot gear and with three jeeps on the pitch perimeter started to launch tear gas in the curve sud. These 200 police were out of control but if they get injured they get their days off paid for. This is not the case if we get injured, and believe me you do if they shoot tear gas at you at point blank range. I saw a man receiving 13 stitches in the head because of a tear gas in der. We cannot go to hospital; if the police in d you receiving treatment you get a stadium banning order. Many of us who are injured by the police do not go to hospital; we prefer to take care
of the injuries by ourselves. There was no conspiracy that day, just an issue of respect. The Laziali believed this boy (a Roma supporter) was dead, killed by the police [It was later discovered that no one had been killed in the skirmish.]. Out of respect they took down their banners and wanted the derby to be abandoned.

There is reciprocal respect for death; the curve sud do not make banners to ridicule the Laziali for the death of Paparelli [a Lazio supporter accidentally killed by pyrotechnics fi red by a Roma fan in the late 70s]. I was arrested and evidence presented from photographs that the police took in the square before the match when I was not doing anything illegal. My lawyer told me the police were attempting to prove a link between this image and the incidents in the stadium. In the absence of being charged I faced four days in police custody, 50 days under house arrest, and two months of having to sign daily in the police station at 7.00 a.m., 2.00 p.m. and 9.00 p.m. Currently I sign only when Lazio and Roma play:  three times a day for Roma and three times a day for Lazio and this will last until September 2007...