FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

As for the ECAC comment, AGAIN, let it go dude. What is your problem with Ithaca? You constantly milk this idea that Ithaca is "too good" for the ECACs, something that we have constantly rebutted. Let me ask you one question: what skin is it off your back that Ithaca doesn't play in the ECACs? Seriously, why does it tick you off so much? At least we're opening up a spot for Union every year. Here's a post where you deride Bombers for not taking Union seriously as a rivalry game, and then you throw in a little dig to try and legitimize your claim. When has one Ithaca fan on these boards ever said squat about Union in a negative way (until the last sentence; fine, you got to me). You're like a pathetic Mets fan that thinks they have a "rivalry" with the Yankees.  I'm not an LL expert, but don't other fans on this board find a Union fan yapping about another school being "too good" a little ironic?

Once again I must say I find your double life as someone who touts himself as a journalist while simultaneously trashing institutions that welcome you into their press box (which also isn't good enough for you apparently, I guess the U can't afford an ethernet cable for you) mystifying.

Max, I stated it as a question concerning Ithaca with the ECACs.  However, as LD probably would be able to confirm on behalf of people who have been on these boards for years, the Ithaca/Union situation has a lot of history.  There was a lot of finger pointing concerning why the teams never faced each other in the regular season -- there seemed to be a lot of evidence pointing toward Ithaca at the time, although the truth may have laid in the middle more than what I was being told.  That said, when Ithaca drew Union in the ECACs, Ithaca fans were trash talking their butts off in the message boards (to answer your question).  I've seen whining about the 2005 playoff game here, as well (a great shootout of a game, indeed).  After Union beat Ithaca in 1999, there was a period of time that Ithaca didn't subscribe to ECAC bowls anymore.  I don't know what the reasoning was for this, even though you suggest there was some specific justification stated for it.  So, please, enlighten me since I did suggest it could've been budgetary or because Ithaca had a certain attitude change concerning the games after that 1999 game.  I would DEFINITELY like to know since it does hurt the veracity of those games when teams like Ithaca do fail to register for them.

If you have a problem with what I said about Ithaca, then perhaps you don't understand that what I stated was a list of facts that lend to a perception concerning Ithaca from many Union fans' points of view.  dlip confirmed some level of those and that there is indeed a rivalry mentality there.  In other words, don't shoot the messenger.  This has nothing to do with some of the issues I encountered personally last season at Ithaca -- more on those issues in a second.  I can tell you flat out that Union players, coaches and alums know a good portion of the history and view this game as a rivalry.  If you and Ithaca players, coaches and alums don't see it that way, then so be it -- maybe that's what happened in 2009?

My personal feelings about Ithaca go like this:  Coach Welch is an awesome coach with huge talent for the game.  He knows how to motivate his players and knows what's at stake week to week.  If this becomes a "down year" for Ithaca, it will be a temporary blip for an otherwise great program.  I say that even remembering the Curry loss, as one game does not define a program or a coach.  He also is a wise man who said some very important things during one of the sessions D3 coaches held with the former Selection Committee Chair this offseason concerning the deficiencies in the current selection process for football.  I take nothing away from him or Ithaca's success.  My concerns about some of the Ithaca fans' attitudes at times also do not diminish my feelings concerning Coach Welch or the program's success over the years.

With respect to last year, let me make something clear -- I apologized for the perception certain people had concerning my comments regarding the press box issues we encountered.  I wanted people there to recognize that under those circumstances, should Ithaca make it deep into the playoffs (i.e., to the Semis), the NCAA, Turner Sports and/or D3football.com would not have had the capabilities to broadcast a web video feed of such a playoff game under those circumstances and with the technology apparently present.  I also was told that there was a lot of money being invested in upgrading athletics facilities there -- my suggestion was that if there was any extra money, then it would be a good idea to direct some of it toward upgrading the press box for everyone's sake, including Ithaca's and their players.  Trust me, Max, my Union crew and I are not prima donas.  Ask Pat Coleman which crew readily stood outside the Union press box to broadcast the 2005 RPI/Union game when the Union press box was at capacity since we wanted to accommodate the visitors' radio however we could (Pat attended that game).  Ask Union's SID who volunteered just this afternoon to stand outside the Union press box to broadcast if they had issues with using the fraternity for coaching/filming across the field (which would've created major space issues).  Ask RPI's SID about all the odd locations we've broadcasted at RPI when '86 Field was still in use without complaint.  We do whatever we have to do to get the broadcast together and to ensure the other school's broadcasts have an easy go of it, but last year's use of a tethered iPhone to broadcast the game was admittedly a bit unusual and unreliable... yet, Ithaca's SID did what he could to assist us as I said last year as a tribute to his hard work. 

Not sure what the ethernet cord jab was even about, Max -- feel free to explain, but we carry 100ft. of ethernet cable wherever we go.  If you go beyond 300ft., which I do have in case we need that much, you drop network signal.

[Jonny Utah]

A few things:

Frank said that a win against Ithaca would be a huge win for Union and I don't see how you can argue with that.  Union has struggled in various different ways over the last 10 games, and a win against anyone would be great, especially against a team that beat them last year, and against a team that still might show something later in the season.  And this should be considered a rivalry, as rivalries are always good.  The more people that become interested in games like this helps both schools programs.  Back when Buff State was a "rival", the Ithaca/Buff State games had that extra interest, bigger crowds, better atmospheres, etc.  This helps recruiting and everything else.

Let's try to distinguish between "Ithaca talking alot of smack" and 4-5 people on a message board posting things.  I think that should be clear. 4-5 people out of about 20,000 that might actually follow Ithaca football is pretty insignificant.

And if Ithaca hosted a playoff game, I'm going to say the Park School building has the supplies to broadcast anything they wanted to.  I don't doubt that the press box is crappy for your every day home game.

And are people really whining about the 2005 Union game Frank?  Again, that could be another 4-5 people on the internet we are talking about here.  Sure that game could have gone either way, just like the 1988 Union/Ithaca game could have gone either way.  Hell, the 1988 Union team may have been better than the 1988 Ithaca team and Union just didn't play well that day?  In 2005 Union had the better team that day.  I thought the offenses were equal, Union had the better oline, and much better linebackers, and Ithaca had much better special teams.  You play that game 100 times and I bet Union goes 60-40.

[Bombers798891]

As for the ECAC comment, AGAIN, let it go dude. What is your problem with Ithaca? You constantly milk this idea that Ithaca is "too good" for the ECACs, something that we have constantly rebutted. Let me ask you one question: what skin is it off your back that Ithaca doesn't play in the ECACs? Seriously, why does it tick you off so much? At least we're opening up a spot for Union every year. Here's a post where you deride Bombers for not taking Union seriously as a rivalry game, and then you throw in a little dig to try and legitimize your claim. When has one Ithaca fan on these boards ever said squat about Union in a negative way (until the last sentence; fine, you got to me). You're like a pathetic Mets fan that thinks they have a "rivalry" with the Yankees.  I'm not an LL expert, but don't other fans on this board find a Union fan yapping about another school being "too good" a little ironic?

Once again I must say I find your double life as someone who touts himself as a journalist while simultaneously trashing institutions that welcome you into their press box (which also isn't good enough for you apparently, I guess the U can't afford an ethernet cable for you) mystifying.

Max, I stated it as a question concerning Ithaca with the ECACs.  However, as LD probably would be able to confirm on behalf of people who have been on these boards for years, the Ithaca/Union situation has a lot of history.  There was a lot of finger pointing concerning why the teams never faced each other in the regular season -- there seemed to be a lot of evidence pointing toward Ithaca at the time, although the truth may have laid in the middle more than what I was being told.  That said, when Ithaca drew Union in the ECACs, Ithaca fans were trash talking their butts off in the message boards (to answer your question).  I've seen whining about the 2005 playoff game here, as well (a great shootout of a game, indeed).  After Union beat Ithaca in 1999, there was a period of time that Ithaca didn't subscribe to ECAC bowls anymore.  I don't know what the reasoning was for this, even though you suggest there was some specific justification stated for it.  So, please, enlighten me since I did suggest it could've been budgetary or because Ithaca had a certain attitude change concerning the games after that 1999 game.  I would DEFINITELY like to know since it does hurt the veracity of those games when teams like Ithaca do fail to register for them.

If you have a problem with what I said about Ithaca, then perhaps you don't understand that what I stated was a list of facts that lend to a perception concerning Ithaca from many Union fans' points of view.  dlip confirmed some level of those and that there is indeed a rivalry mentality there.  In other words, don't shoot the messenger.  This has nothing to do with some of the issues I encountered personally last season at Ithaca -- more on those issues in a second.  I can tell you flat out that Union players, coaches and alums know a good portion of the history and view this game as a rivalry.  If you and Ithaca players, coaches and alums don't see it that way, then so be it -- maybe that's what happened in 2009?

My personal feelings about Ithaca go like this:  Coach Welch is an awesome coach with huge talent for the game.  He knows how to motivate his players and knows what's at stake week to week.  If this becomes a "down year" for Ithaca, it will be a temporary blip for an otherwise great program.  I say that even remembering the Curry loss, as one game does not define a program or a coach.  He also is a wise man who said some very important things during one of the sessions D3 coaches held with the former Selection Committee Chair this offseason concerning the deficiencies in the current selection process for football.  I take nothing away from him or Ithaca's success.  My concerns about some of the Ithaca fans' attitudes at times also do not diminish my feelings concerning Coach Welch or the program's success over the years.

With respect to last year, let me make something clear -- I apologized for the perception certain people had concerning my comments regarding the press box issues we encountered.  I wanted people there to recognize that under those circumstances, should Ithaca make it deep into the playoffs (i.e., to the Semis), the NCAA, Turner Sports and/or D3football.com would not have had the capabilities to broadcast a web video feed of such a playoff game under those circumstances and with the technology apparently present.  I also was told that there was a lot of money being invested in upgrading athletics facilities there -- my suggestion was that if there was any extra money, then it would be a good idea to direct some of it toward upgrading the press box for everyone's sake, including Ithaca's and their players.  Trust me, Max, my Union crew and I are not prima donas.  Ask Pat Coleman which crew readily stood outside the Union press box to broadcast the 2005 RPI/Union game when the Union press box was at capacity since we wanted to accommodate the visitors' radio however we could (Pat attended that game).  Ask Union's SID who volunteered just this afternoon to stand outside the Union press box to broadcast if they had issues with using the fraternity for coaching/filming across the field (which would've created major space issues).  Ask RPI's SID about all the odd locations we've broadcasted at RPI when '86 Field was still in use without complaint.  We do whatever we have to do to get the broadcast together and to ensure the other school's broadcasts have an easy go of it, but last year's use of a tethered iPhone to broadcast the game was admittedly a bit unusual and unreliable... yet, Ithaca's SID did what he could to assist us as I said last year as a tribute to his hard work. 

Not sure what the ethernet cord jab was even about, Max -- feel free to explain, but we carry 100ft. of ethernet cable wherever we go.  If you go beyond 300ft., which I do have in case we need that much, you drop network signal.

Frank,

Regarding ECAC's, this is what I have heard. Maybe it's wrong, but this comes from people in the athletic department. A lot of guys on the 1999 team didn't want to play in a game. They were 7-1 and blew winnable games to Buff State and Cortland to close 7-3 and had mentally checked out of the season. Now, I'm not saying this is why they lost. Union was clearly the better team that season. But, by getting smoked, I think the program felt that, if the kids weren't going to get up for them, because they were focused on the NCAAs, why go just to travel hours away and get beat by four touchdowns? This has kind of morphed into "Ithaca's more focused on the NCAA's than the ECAC's

So they passed until 2004 when, to my knowledge, they believed they should have made the NCAA's. (They were wrong about that) but, knowing it was unlikely after the 2nd loss thus used the ECAC game to prove something. (Like they did in 1998)

As for the trash talking on message boards in 1999/2005, I mean, come on dude. Message board squaking from 1999 is still relevant today how? How many of the guys who post here as IC guys were around then?

[pumkinattack]

So now I get you completely.
Things as I see them: 
You are an unabashed Union fan. 
You can't stand to be disagreed with, even though what we are talking about is more a matter of opinion than fact.
The expectations for Utica weren't low, they were favored by every poster on this board who posted an opinion.
You know more than I do about how players feel and think, as well as what motivates them.
The Union game WAS a signature opportunity for Utica.  We agree on this one.
Utica's defense was not pretty good, but they were adequate and they came through when it counted.
I didn't say you discredited Utica, I pointed out that you didn't give their performance due respect, and you think the only reason they won was because they were just more fired up because of their opponent.  Sorry, you can only extrapolate intangibles so far.
Geez, you had to turn your mike down in the fourth quarter.  There we agree that the crowd got into it at that point, finally.
You know more about D3 football than I do, and you think I'm ignorant. And you have how many Stagg Bowl rings?[/quote]

It took you 146 posts to figure these points out?  That should've been post #2.   

Be careful on the last point.  Besides being a touchy subject for some people/administrators on site, you're really taking a shot at everyone in the LL here (except a few old IC alums, perhaps) and I wouldn't agree with the sentiment in that.  It would suggest that the last man on the roster that everyone's allowed on has more experience than a DIII all american who went to the NFL (a certain LB from John Carroll for example), which I'm sure isn't what you meant to suggest. 

[AUKaz00]

Speaking of mischaracterizations and not proving evidence to back up your claims:

Nobody is making the claim that the LL is better than the E8, especially since the LL has held onto teams like WPI, MMA and SLU through thick and thin and isn't interested in instability every two years.

The inference here is that the E8 wasn't interested in holding onto Norwich or Springfield and thus would prefer instability.  Perhaps if the LL wasn't the 19th best conference in the country they'd have teams leaving for weaker conferences they could dominate that were geographically closer too.

[pumkinattack]

Now you've really done it Kaz.  How dare you!  It's on like donkey kong now. 

Seriously, this whole conference thing is a joke.  The NCAA is very close to losing control of D1 football (I still call Starbucks coffee's small, medium and large, so it's going to take a while before I call it FBS/FCS) and all these conference realignments prove that the conferences themselves carry no value other than the AQ attached to it.  I feel nothing about WPI and MMA even after what 7-8 years in the conference and seeing a number of Bart-MMA games out in Kings Point.  AU and IC mean more.  When I was applying for college I didn't even look at those schools (or any of the E8 schools, but having grown up in Broome Co and my father's family in Steuben Co, care much more about IC/AU, etc.), but rather Union, Hamilton and about half the NESCAC schools along with a couple of others. 

The conferences are articifical constructs to work within the NCAA system.  An organization that may lose control of the largest 60 or 70 football schools in the country and those related revenue streams in the next decade. 

[Frank Rossi]

Speaking of mischaracterizations and not proving evidence to back up your claims:

Nobody is making the claim that the LL is better than the E8, especially since the LL has held onto teams like WPI, MMA and SLU through thick and thin and isn't interested in instability every two years.

The inference here is that the E8 wasn't interested in holding onto Norwich or Springfield and thus would prefer instability.  Perhaps if the LL wasn't the 19th best conference in the country they'd have teams leaving for weaker conferences they could dominate that were geographically closer too.

Sorry, I didn't footnote my reference.  *See Episode 402 of ITH.

[Doid23]

(I still call Starbucks coffee's small, medium and large, so it's going to take a while before I call it FBS/FCS) and all these conference realignments prove that the conferences themselves carry no value other than the AQ attached to it.

Good points. And I too will refuse to call it FBS/FCS, and I still have no idea which is which. Division I and Division I-AA was so much easier.

[Bombers798891]

Speaking of mischaracterizations and not proving evidence to back up your claims:

Nobody is making the claim that the LL is better than the E8, especially since the LL has held onto teams like WPI, MMA and SLU through thick and thin and isn't interested in instability every two years.

The inference here is that the E8 wasn't interested in holding onto Norwich or Springfield and thus would prefer instability.  Perhaps if the LL wasn't the 19th best conference in the country they'd have teams leaving for weaker conferences they could dominate that were geographically closer too.

Springfield leaving the E8 is hardly an E8 issue. Springfield's not exactly a pillar of stability when it comes to football affiliation.

[Doid23]

Well said Frank and there in lyes dlip's weakness regarding the argument is his lack of knowledge and experience with some of the other conferences in D3. Guess if this is the case maybe he shouldn't make statements that put the LL in 19th. dlip does, at times, make assumptions on here based upon already researched information by the site. However, as one with very little free time to read up on and go out and watch many other conferences dlip tends to take d3.com's word regarding the ranking of the league and the relative strength of other leagues across the nation. On top of this, when the LL's conference champion from last year gets smoked by a good Utica team and hardly beats an O.K. ECFC team and the leagues overal record against two of the weakest conferences in the region is below .500 dlip tends to support D3.com's placement of the LL at 19th. From this dlip can see that maybe before making such statements that seem to put down a team and/or league with the sound of certainty, he should either do his own research before
or just say he does not have enough experience and/or knowledge of the subject to do so. Honestly, dlip really hopes your thoughts are the case!

Dlip, it's alright to have an opinion. And it's alright to change your opinion. There is no need to apologize for it, and you know your football. Facts can be turned 5 different ways, and cases can be made for every side, but in the end it's just an opinion. There is no right answer. And we're not launching nuclear missiles here, it's D3 football.

[Pat Coleman]

And we're not launching nuclear missiles here, it's D3 football.

And thank goodness for that!

[Frank Rossi]

And we're not launching nuclear missiles here, it's D3 football.

And thank goodness for that!

Damn!  I had Minnesota already programmed into the launch coordinates.

[dlippiel]

Well said Frank and there in lyes dlip's weakness regarding the argument is his lack of knowledge and experience with some of the other conferences in D3. Guess if this is the case maybe he shouldn't make statements that put the LL in 19th. dlip does, at times, make assumptions on here based upon already researched information by the site. However, as one with very little free time to read up on and go out and watch many other conferences dlip tends to take d3.com's word regarding the ranking of the league and the relative strength of other leagues across the nation. On top of this, when the LL's conference champion from last year gets smoked by a good Utica team and hardly beats an O.K. ECFC team and the leagues overal record against two of the weakest conferences in the region is below .500 dlip tends to support D3.com's placement of the LL at 19th. From this dlip can see that maybe before making such statements that seem to put down a team and/or league with the sound of certainty, he should either do his own research before
or just say he does not have enough experience and/or knowledge of the subject to do so. Honestly, dlip really hopes your thoughts are the case!

Dlip, it's alright to have an opinion. And it's alright to change your opinion. There is no need to apologize for it, and you know your football. Facts can be turned 5 different ways, and cases can be made for every side, but in the end it's just an opinion. There is no right answer. And we're not launching nuclear missiles here, it's D3 football.

dlip appreciates this post very much doid, thanks! 

[drt]

So now I get you completely.
Things as I see them: 
You are an unabashed Union fan. 
You can't stand to be disagreed with, even though what we are talking about is more a matter of opinion than fact.
The expectations for Utica weren't low, they were favored by every poster on this board who posted an opinion.
You know more than I do about how players feel and think, as well as what motivates them.
The Union game WAS a signature opportunity for Utica.  We agree on this one.
Utica's defense was not pretty good, but they were adequate and they came through when it counted.
I didn't say you discredited Utica, I pointed out that you didn't give their performance due respect, and you think the only reason they won was because they were just more fired up because of their opponent.  Sorry, you can only extrapolate intangibles so far.
Geez, you had to turn your mike down in the fourth quarter.  There we agree that the crowd got into it at that point, finally.
You know more about D3 football than I do, and you think I'm ignorant. And you have how many Stagg Bowl rings?

It took you 146 posts to figure these points out?  That should've been post #2.   

Be careful on the last point.  Besides being a touchy subject for some people/administrators on site, you're really taking a shot at everyone in the LL here (except a few old IC alums, perhaps) and I wouldn't agree with the sentiment in that.  It would suggest that the last man on the roster that everyone's allowed on has more experience than a DIII all american who went to the NFL (a certain LB from John Carroll for example), which I'm sure isn't what you meant to suggest.
[/quote]
My comment was not aimed at the LL, their players or their other posters on this board, and shouldn't be taken as an attack on them.

[Pat Coleman]

You know more about D3 football than I do, and you think I'm ignorant. And you have how many Stagg Bowl rings?

My comment was not aimed at the LL, their players or their other posters on this board, and shouldn't be taken as an attack on them.

As long as they have Stagg Bowl rings, right? How many do they need?