FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

Babin's numbers were just as good as Gallo's, BTW, so the argument for Pitcher based on SOS could easily be applied to him.

That's not correct since Babin's TDs were over 11 games.

[Bombers798891]

This is getting ridiculous, mother****ers are just crying here over spilled milk. Please stop the bitching. Listen, there are definitely a few other players who could have received this honor. Yet, dlip can say, with confidence, that any astute football fan who watched Justin play, would concurr, that he was as, or more, dominate than any other player in the region.

Bombers lets go ****in easy on the Union bashing. To dlip, if they played IC at the end of the year, the result would have been much different than than the first time.

Since when is positing a preference for another player Union bashing? We're all supposed to bow down to one player simply because his numbers are a fraction better than someone else's?

I saw Babin play against IC, and I think Babin is every bit as good as Gallo. Think about it: I'm an Ithaca fan saying a Cortland player deserves an award. I don't come to such conclusions easily. And yes, I think Pitcher and D'Andrea had better seasons too. If you consider an alternate opinion Union bashing, then you need thicker skin. I think they had better seasons.

As for the SOS argument, Frank was the one who tossed the opening salvo about the NJAC being weak beyond the top three teams and how Cortland struggled in what he termed "key" games. Pointing out, accurately, that Union beat fewer teams with a winning record than Cortland did, that they lost to the only team in the conference to finish with a winning record, and that they fared worse against their one common opponent than Cortland did is simply stating facts. Unpleasant ones for Union fans perhaps, but facts nonetheless. Again, if stating facts is interpreted as Union-bashing, well, you need thicker skin.

I'm sure Union would beat the unholy dlip out of Ithaca right now. So what? Ithaca sucked this season, and I've never done anything but say otherwise since that became painfully obvious after watching them play. You play when you play. That Union would have beaten Ithaca had the game been later in the year is wholly irrelevant to the discussion of the season and a comparison of Cortland and Union's schedules, which is what I was doing when I brought up the Ithaca games.

[Bombers798891]

Babin's numbers were just as good as Gallo's, BTW, so the argument for Pitcher based on SOS could easily be applied to him.

That's not correct since Babin's TDs were over 11 games.

And they were also accrued while, in my view, playing in a tougher conference, which, for me, makes up for the one touchdown, ~80 something yard difference through their 10-game splits. Besides, shouldn't we factor in that since Cortland blew people out, Babin was likely on the field less than Gallo, and thus, his numbers might actually have been put up in less time?

One of these days Frank, you'll learn that people can have different opinions than you, even about Union.

[dlippiel]

Lets see Frank, we conveniently throw in blizzard conditions for Gallo, but throw out Cortaca for Pitcher.  We call the NJAC watered down like the LL is so much stronger.  Hermann is a good dual threat QB but his total yardage is less than Pitcher, his pass efficiency is less, total TDs and points responsible for are less.  His winning percentage is less.  Not sure I buy your argument.

Running QBs end up with less yardage by the nature of the run.  It wasn't a blizzard... It was a torrential rainstorm with swirling wind during the entire game -- receivers couldn't look up because the rain pelted them so bad.  What were the conditions for Cortaca?  And I brought to the front the key games for each team in their respective conference and showed the 1-2 records in those games.  Just sayin'...

What was Union's record in "key conference games"? The only other team in the LL to have a winning record beat Union by 17 points. It's pretty hard to have key conference games when your conference has one good team in it...

Also, the two teams had a common opponent. Cortland beat them, badly, on the road. Union lost to them (not as badly as the score would indicate, but still) at home.

Just sayin...

Dlip read this again and sees it as not Union bashing. That probably wasn't one of dlips better posts. As far as Gallo goes dlip guesses that since he has not seen every other receiver/player play in the east region so maybe he isnt qualified to make any "blanket" type statements. All he can say is that there was definitely no injustice in awarding the honor to Justin. +k bombers for the skimming that lead to dlips post.

[Frank Rossi]

And you're entirely missing the point concerning my statement from earlier -- win/loss records and consistency in key games will be held more or less against a QB than a WR since there's 1 QB and 2-5 WRs on each team.  Union's record isn't as relevant since Gallo is a WR, is the point.  That said, even if you want to use it as a criterion for a WR, the team's conference performance was excellent, and it was in large part due to Gallo's play.  You don't win this one in either case based on the relevancy of your argument or the argument itself (if we assumed it to be relevant for a WR), to be honest.

[Frank Rossi]

One of these days Frank, you'll learn that people can have different opinions than you, even about Union.

You just lost every ounce of credibility in this argument I thought you had.  Try actually reading everything written and stop assuming and carrying grudges.  Thanks.  Argument done.

Now to people that actually matter:


Congratulations also to Union's Dan Smith, Second Team All-East Offensive Tackle -- the offensive line was a strong suit for Union except for the Hobart game this year.  Dan was a workhorse for the team and deserved the kudos.

[clandfan]

Bombers...I went to state school.  You argue much better than I could.  Thanks for the support.  To help you feel better about the whole thing I will allow you one F Cortland without rebuttal.

[Bombers798891]

And you're entirely missing the point concerning my statement from earlier -- win/loss records and consistency in key games will be held more or less against a QB than a WR since there's 1 QB and 2-5 WRs on each team.  Union's record isn't as relevant since Gallo is a WR, is the point. That said, even if you want to use it as a criterion for a WR, the team's conference performance was excellent, and it was in large part due to Gallo's play.  You don't win this one in either case based on the relevancy of your argument or the argument itself (if we assumed it to be relevant for a WR), to be honest.

Right there is my problem with you Frank. Right there. You believe this is about winning or losing. That somehow, some fictional jury is going to read this thread and name you the winner of the ER POY debate.

No one else is trying to win an argument. We're expressing an opinion. One that might be different than yours, and yes, use different criteria for arriving at said conclusion. Do I think Pitcher and D'Andrea had a better season than Gallo? Do I think Babin's numbers are right in line with Gallo's considering the level of competition? Yes. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying it's what I believe. We all interpret numbers differently.

To your point about W/L records, maybe they ARE held against QB's more by people. That doesn't mean they should be. It's certainly not Gallo's fault that Union went 6-4. But it's not, in my opinion, Pitcher's fault that his defense couldn't make 33 points stand up against Montclair, or that Cortland had a special teams meltdown of epic proportions against Kean that cost them who knows how many points in the long run. Pitcher played well enough for Cortland to go 10-0. If everyone played as good as Gallo, Union would have to. So here we are, back at interpreting numbers and offering opinions. And there isn't one way to do so, not even yours, buddy.

[Bombers798891]

One of these days Frank, you'll learn that people can have different opinions than you, even about Union.

You just lost every ounce of credibility in this argument I thought you had.  Try actually reading everything written and stop assuming and carrying grudges.  Thanks.  Argument done.

Now to people that actually matter:


Congratulations also to Union's Dan Smith, Second Team All-East Offensive Tackle -- the offensive line was a strong suit for Union except for the Hobart game this year.  Dan was a workhorse for the team and deserved the kudos.

There it is again. Arguments. Winning. You seem to interpret a debate as an argument and think that there has to be a winner and a loser. Why is that?

I don't have a grudge against you or Union. I have, over the years, agreed with many things you've said. (I think just last month we were both in agreement regarding something about the playoffs.) I don't agree with you on everything, but again, all I've done is state an opinion that someone else might be better than Gallo. Since when is that an issue?

Speaking of grudges though, could you bring up Ithaca declining ECAC Bowls again? It's been a few months

[Frank Rossi]

Courtesy Dictionary.com:

de·bate   /dɪˈbeɪt/  [dih-beyt]  noun, verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing. 
noun
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3. deliberation; consideration.
4. Archaic . strife; contention.
verb (used without object)
5. to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly: When we left, the men were still debating.
6. to participate in a formal debate.
7. to deliberate; consider: I debated with myself whether to tell them the truth or not.
8. Obsolete . to fight; quarrel.

verb (used with object)
9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.
10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.
11. to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton.
12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.
13. Archaic . to contend for or over.

[Knightstalker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4em8_iu-Tw&feature=related

[maxpower]

http://youtu.be/yTl9zYS3_dc


(EDIT: also, frank, you're a Union fan who went to Union and who broadcasts for Union and are currently arguing that there's no way a Union player shouldn't have won a subjective award. you may or may not be right, but you're being a homer. nothing wrong with being a homer. just don't claim some sort of weird objectivity. i don't know if you can claim it in the booth. but you can't here.)

[Jonny Utah]

I like Gallo because he makes big plays but doesn't have that superb #2 or #3 receiver to take the pressure off of him.  Many of these great receivers have great teamates who can make the #1 look great on big plays.  Unions great WR core in 2005 got to feed off each other and a great run game to boot.  Ithacas great WRs also had superb supporting casts.  This years Union team simply doesn't have that.  Gallo is one of those guys who can catch big balls in good coverage, and Connely seemed like that renegade QB type that gambles on tough throws and playground playmaking.  Thats what makes great players.

That being said, Gallo may have not faced the best defensive secondaries in the east, but my opinion is only limited to seeing him live once, and on TV twice.  Ferenbach from SJF was the best WR I have seen at the d3 level, and I'm including Garcon in that mix as well.  You really have to see these guys live a few times before you can get a good grasp on their actual quickness or speed.  Gallo could cacth well in coverage, but does he have the speed or quickness to be one of the best WRs in recent east history?

Good conversation all around, but we all know that Frank is going to end up being right, but I can't disagree with him on this one either, so I'm going to just say that I liked Gallo and am not suprised by him getting player of the year.  He deserved it.

[Jonny Utah]

And I still have yet to hear Frank explain if Union was not eligible for an ECAC game at the end of the year.  My math tells me that they were.  But I'm not that great at math, so I just want to be sure.

[Upstate]

I like Gallo because he makes big plays but doesn't have that superb #2 or #3 receiver to take the pressure off of him.  Many of these great receivers have great teamates who can make the #1 look great on big plays.  Unions great WR core in 2005 got to feed off each other and a great run game to boot.  Ithacas great WRs also had superb supporting casts.  This years Union team simply doesn't have that.  Gallo is one of those guys who can catch big balls in good coverage, and Connely seemed like that renegade QB type that gambles on tough throws and playground playmaking.  Thats what makes great players.

That being said, Gallo may have not faced the best defensive secondaries in the east, but my opinion is only limited to seeing him live once, and on TV twice. Ferenbach from SJF was the best WR I have seen at the d3 level, and I'm including Garcon in that mix as well.  You really have to see these guys live a few times before you can get a good grasp on their actual quickness or speed.  Gallo could cacth well in coverage, but does he have the speed or quickness to be one of the best WRs in recent east history?

Good conversation all around, but we all know that Frank is going to end up being right, but I can't disagree with him on this one either, so I'm going to just say that I liked Gallo and am not suprised by him getting player of the year.  He deserved it.

If Noah had Garcon's speed he would be playing in the NFL...