FB: Liberty League

[ITH radio]

Tonight's podcast

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2013/10/13/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show

Lots of good stuff including Hobart, SLU and SC guests (an AD to boot!)

Our Hobart guest gave USMMA props, and said they were the best team they've faced so far.  Also. frank proposes an interesting WIAC type of scenario for teams missing games due to the Mariners being unable to play. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

I was having the Webb conversation w another and I just hope people in the rest of the country understand he's only playing 2.5 quarters a game.  There hasn't been a game this season that he couldn't get 250+ yards and have a 6-8yd/carry avg if they wanted.  I see scores like Wisener last year or Heidelberg this week and don't understand why.  Cragg would take a knee in the 3rd quarter if that's what it meant to get a healthy win.

There is no denying Webb is having a fantastic season and is as good as any RB in the Division.  There are two things I think should be cleared up in this post:

1) The "2.5 quarters a game" that you cite isn't totally accurate.  Webb scored a TD in the 4th quarter of Bart's first game (their second-to-last possession), played until the final whistle of the Utica game, and carried the ball with less than 10 minutes to go against USMMA.  He did leave the WPI and Springfield games before the third quarter ended, but really, he's not getting yanked early in "every" game.  He might have, what, 12-15 more carries this season if they'd kept him in til the end of all the blowouts?

*Just to clarify, since someone will read this and misunderstand: I do not IN ANY WAY think Webb or Hobart have run up the score in any game.  Everything they have done is 100% acceptable, and I'm not suggesting he should have been pulled any earlier in any game.  I am merely illustrating that he hasn't been pulled THAT early in every game, and that he has in fact played into the fourth quarter several times.  The reason I go to such detail is to illustrate that he's only lost a modest number of carries that he might have if he'd played to the end of every game in an effort to "pad his numbers" rather than winning with class.  I say this because...

2) Other teams pull their starters in blowout wins, too.  The Heidelberg-Capital game that you cite from yesterday actually provides a Webb comparison: Heidelberg's own All-American candidate at RB, Cartel Brooks, who had 15 carries for the game and received his last with 8:10 remaining in the third quarter.  Heidelberg's starters left the game at the end of that series with a 56-10 lead, and after the second-string offense moved down the field in the fourth quarter, they took three knees from the 6-yard line to kick a FG.  Really, look, check the play-by-play here:

Heidelberg drive start at 11:48.
1st and 10 at HEID36   Kevin Smith rush for 2 yards to the HEID38 (Jason Hutchins).
2nd and 8 at HEID38   Kevin Smith rush for loss of 3 yards to the HEID35 (Jason Hutchins).
3rd and 11 at HEID35   Jon Sandwisch pass complete to Jonah Boyer for 32 yards to the CAP33, out-of-bounds.
1st and 10 at CAP33   Kevin Smith rush for 7 yards to the CAP26 (Luke Scott).
2nd and 3 at CAP26           Kevin Smith rush for 20 yards to the CAP06 (Dallas Banks).
1st and Goal at CAP06   Team rush for loss of 2 yards to the CAP08.
2nd and Goal at CAP08   Team rush for loss of 2 yards to the CAP10.
3rd and Goal at CAP10   Team rush for loss of 2 yards to the CAP12.
4th and 12 at CAP12   Aj Morrison field goal attempt from 29 GOOD, clock 07:06.

Look, I am a big proponent of winning with class.  I played for a particularly dominant high school program and left several HS blowouts in the 2nd/3rd quarter with a 28 or 35-point lead because our coach didn't care that we would win 42-7 instead of 70-0, it was more important to keep the starters healthy and get the young kids experience in games like that.  In college games, you tend to leave the starters in a little bit longer than HS blowouts because, frankly, college teams are just a little better and sometimes yanking the starters a series too early MIGHT let a team back in a game if your backups aren't ready to play and at least slow down the other team.  Cragg is to be commended for that, but let's not pretend that Webb is the only guy in the country who could have bigger numbers if he got to play to the end of every game.  Cartel Brooks provides a handy example, since Heidelberg is equally dominant to Bart and he's equally important to the Berg offense.

In Berg's first game, Brooks received his last carry on the last play of the first quarter.  In their second game, he rushed for a touchdown with 9:46 remaining in the third quarter and exited the game.  Third game, last carry came in the second quarter.  Fourth game, second quarter.  Fifth game, 8 minutes remaining in third quarter.  He hasn't played a single snap in the fourth quarter yet; in fact, he hasn't carried the ball in the last 23 minutes of a game yet.  I know maybe telling you all of this is overkill, but without the detail, someone wouldn't believe me.  I didn't bother doing this with "every" All-American candidate, but trust me: Webb isn't the only kid that gets pulled early because his team is good and wins by a lot.  Other good kids from good teams get pulled early from blowout wins, too.  The numbers should even out in the end.

[pumkinattack]

You're right and that's totally fair and I didn't even look at the Heidelberg game, but I have seen many d3 games where the winning team did run up the score.  So my apologies to Heidelberg (not so much Widener and though I played one yr where Ike was an assistant in Geneva and liked him, he did last year run up some scores).

Perhaps my sensitivity is years of hearing about how teams in the LL were better than Hobart (I think RT would say that every year when Hobart was winning the majority of their games in the 2000s) not to mention the past few years hearing fit on the national level.  For example, they dominated MMA and Springfield last year, but everyone question why they were only 2-3 score games.  2011 still gets me bc that team was probably as good as last years team, but a stupid loss to RPI and a couple of only 2-3 score wins and they are questioned as even being a legit playoff team.  In 2008, The defensive interior was better than this team is right now (Sanders, Hager and Aruck), but got very little accolades. 

I'd like to think the blowout wins over W&L and Witt last year, which I watched, buys them some currency, but the league is still below average at this point when you have Union and Springfield with 3 losses in 5 games and the OOC does nothing for them. 

Just sticking up for my boys though.  In 2008, you can say they look no better than most 1 and done PAC or ODAC champs and shouldn't get as much recognition, but this kid has been lighting it up for four years and I never hear boo about him anywhere.  His background makes his success (and hopefully professionally and in life) that much more awesome and I hope the country gets to hear his story.  That's all.  No real disrespect meant to anyone else.

[ExTartanPlayer]

No worries; actually, I have to admit, it was fun to research...and I was amazed to see how early Brooks has been pulled from most of the Heidelberg games!  If my previous post comes off harsh, it isn't meant to do so, I was just going in-depth to illustrate that some other comparable RB's are likely "suffering" from the same "affliction" that artificially depresses their numbers a little bit (which I assume they'll gladly take if it means they're winning games).

Nothing wrong with sticking up for your boys.  I do think Hobart remains a bit of a question mark nationally because the LL just isn't that deep and, as you're alluding, some people think a top-10 team should win every game by 50 (although I do agree that a 41-7 game often could be a 68-7 game if the coach wanted to run up the score).  Bart will hopefully get some nice matchups in the playoffs this year and have the chance to gain that national respect. 

You don't have to prove anything to me; I'm 0-1 against Bart for my career, and that's how it will remain!

[pumkinattack]

It's all good.  You did more research than me, but out of curiosity I pulled up the NCAA stats and he's got far less carries than anyone else in the top 20.  The next closest is a kid from Illinois college at 98 carries through five games.  We've got a really nice Soph in Connor Hartigan who's getting carries throughout the game that on most teams would be Webbs carries.  But to my point the kid will be ready next year when Webb is gone.

I nearly lost myself on those CMu games.  Really tough ones mid decade.  I barely remember playing in Geneva and I'm only 35, but I remember how good they got pretty much right after I left and most of those games. 

[Bombers798891]

I think PA has a legit concern. If Webb winds up with 60 or 70 fewer carries than some of these backs, that might hurt him. I mean, are people going to go digging through a dozen players individual game summaries to figure out who gets pulled when? Or consider their game against Springfield. Twice, Webb had TD runs on the opening play of the drive. Maybe that's unusual. But are voters going to find that out?

I think there could be a legitimate "Is this guy the kind of guy who can take the ball 25-30 times a game?" questions, fair or not. It may also color the perception of his YPC average, that he's a home run back but not an every-down, pick up 5 yards on third and four type of guy. There's nothing wrong with having home run ability. I mean, who's going to complain about a 67-yard touchdown run? And who knows? Maybe the voters don't really make the distinction. Ithaca once had a back win AA status and he had 138-regular season carries.

I do think if he had a 35-carry, 240-yard day it would probably help a lot

[mattvsmith]

This may be my favorite season ever.
USMMA was showing real promise until they became part of the 17% of the government shut down. I don't like no one messing with my second favorite LL team.
St Lawrence has risen from the dead and is awesome. I hope not so awesome they knock off Hobart.
Rochester filled an empty week with a quickness. And then proceeded to beat Alfred State like a mule that won't budge.
Hobart's is now ranked #6. My memory is too poor to remember our highest rank last year.

I also just found out that my university's archival in football is not the other maritime university but the Korean Naval Academy. I'm thinking about buying a trophy and starting the Smith Cup annual grudge match. "Only faggots and sailors are named Lawrence!" Apparently my university is one of the better football schools is the city, and ok nationwide. (Korea is about the size of Indiana, but with 50,000,000 people; 30,000,000 of whom live in Seoul and its suburbs.)

It's 3:30 am here. Not sleeping well these days.

[D3MAFAN]

This may be my favorite season ever.
USMMA was showing real promise until they became part of the 17% of the government shut down. I don't like no one messing with my second favorite LL team.
St Lawrence has risen from the dead and is awesome. I hope not so awesome they knock off Hobart.
Rochester filled an empty week with a quickness. And then proceeded to beat Alfred State like a mule that won't budge.
Hobart's is now ranked #6. My memory is too poor to remember our highest rank last year.

I also just found out that my university's archival in football is not the other maritime university but the Korean Naval Academy. I'm thinking about buying a trophy and starting the Smith Cup annual grudge match. "Only faggots and sailors are named Lawrence!" Apparently my university is one of the better football schools is the city, and ok nationwide. (Korea is about the size of Indiana, but with 50,000,000 people; 30,000,000 of whom live in Seoul and its suburbs.)

It's 3:30 am here. Not sleeping well these days.

Any idea on if Springfield is going to fill their schedule?

[Upstate]

Went through Robinson's 2004 season for giggles and he averaged a whopping 32 carries a game. In 12 games he had 386 carries for 2194 yards (5.7 ypc) 22 TDs, 15 rec, 232 yds (15.5 ypc) and 3 TDs.

They needed pretty much every carry/touch that year too. That year Fisher had 5 wins decided by more than 11 points (he was pulled at end of the 3rd or near the beginning of 4th QTR in all 5) and in the other 7 games the Fisher point differential was 7, 4, 7, 5, -5, 10, -6.

In the two NCAA games Fisher played Robinson had games of 24 car, 225 yds 1 TD (9.5 av) and 40 car, 254 yds and 2 TD.

I'd really like to see Webb get that kind of workload in the playoffs, where the rosters are limited and opposition is better, so he can really show just how good he really is. For the record, I think he's great so its not like I'm saying his numbers are skewed because of competition.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I'd really like to see Webb get that kind of workload in the playoffs, where the rosters are limited and opposition is better, so he can really show just how good he really is. For the record, I think he's great so its not like I'm saying his numbers are skewed because of competition.

I agree that I'd like to see Webb get a couple of heavy workload games in the playoffs for that purpose.  As far as All-American consideration goes, they vote after the season is over, correct?  IMO then we have less of a concern about statistics skewed by blowouts because a guy with 2 or 3 playoff games will both a) just accumulate some more counting stats and b) more importantly, tally a signature game or two for voters to notice.  Mount Union's guys have been pulled early from blowouts for years and they've still recorded plenty of AA's at RB and WR with merely "good" per-game statistics because they're able to keep churning stuff out in the playoffs for an extra couple weeks.  If Webb and Hobart go a couple rounds in the playoffs, his stats will get him noticed. 

Cartel Brooks provides an interesting comparison to Webb as a fellow big-play RB from a very good team that's blowing out most of their competition.  He's had just 63 carries in five games (586 yards and 11 TD's among them, which is, incredibly, even better per-carry production than Webb's 9.0 yards per carry and TD every 8.5 carries; Brooks has 9.3 yards per carry and a TD every 5.9 carries).  I'm not saying Webb isn't worthy of consideration, of course he is.  I'm just saying he's not the only RB who leaves blowout wins early and isn't racking up statistics quite so much as he could.  Brooks does have the advantage of being a returning second-team AA and preseason first-team AA, which enhances his name recognition and may mean he doesn't "need" to rack up eye-popping statistics to get consideration.  He will also have the advantage of games vs. John Carroll and Mount Union later this season, games in which he will likely go the distance and receive 30 or more carries, which Webb will not likely have until the playoffs.

[Pat Coleman]

We reveal ours in the Stagg Bowl pregame show so basically, yes, the season is over for all but about a dozen All-American candidates at that point.

[ITH radio]

This may be my favorite season ever.
USMMA was showing real promise until they became part of the 17% of the government shut down. I don't like no one messing with my second favorite LL team.
St Lawrence has risen from the dead and is awesome. I hope not so awesome they knock off Hobart.
Rochester filled an empty week with a quickness. And then proceeded to beat Alfred State like a mule that won't budge.
Hobart's is now ranked #6. My memory is too poor to remember our highest rank last year.

I also just found out that my university's archival in football is not the other maritime university but the Korean Naval Academy. I'm thinking about buying a trophy and starting the Smith Cup annual grudge match. "Only faggots and sailors are named Lawrence!" Apparently my university is one of the better football schools is the city, and ok nationwide. (Korea is about the size of Indiana, but with 50,000,000 people; 30,000,000 of whom live in Seoul and its suburbs.)

It's 3:30 am here. Not sleeping well these days.

Any idea on if Springfield is going to fill their schedule?

We interviewed Springfield's AD last night.  Starts about 60 mins into the podcast:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2013/10/13/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show

Also did my first D3report from Springfield and thanks to Pat for including it in this week's recap. 

[pumkinattack]

I'm just happy I could spark the discussion.  Webb started off really slow last year.  Can't recall, but he may have been nicked up.  His three playoff games (W&L, Witt & UST), while splitting carries with Dougherty (who finished the season w 215-1024/19 himself for the season) was 21-99/3, 19-130/1 & 10-103/1 (total of 50-332/5).  Not too bad against solid competition while being part of a two headed monster. 

This year w/o Dougherty and a really excellent WR in Woodard, if Bart can make the playoffs he'll have to carry more like 25/game.  He's short and fast, but very thick trunks and even on most of his big runs he breaks multiple tackles. 

We'll see, but he belongs in the discussion amongst maybe the top half dozen backs in the country at this point.  They need to take care of business the rest of the reg season first.

Btw, for any Bart fans, if you can get ahold if a clip of Zach Thornton absolutely blowing some poor kid up in (I think) the 3rd vs WPI, check it out.  Another one if this FR backups who looks good.  He's bigger than out fullback. 

[Bartman]

Glad to see the attention that Webb is getting on the board. I have always felt he is one of the most talented backs I have seen at the D3 level (and I saw A-Z play). He has speed, incredibly illusive moves and great leg strength to break tackles. The highlight runs of his career are impressive. Webb's only problem is that he scores too fast, which hurts Hobart's possession time stats(a terrible, terrible problem.... ; ). It will be a privilege to watch him the rest of his Senior year.   

[pumkinattack]

I always knew some of the stat keepers behaved in shady ways, though I'm glad they responded to our appeal.  Congrats Tyre.  I played briefly with Dave Russell and that guy was awesome, so you know you're a stud when you break his record 15yrs later only halfway through you're Jr season. 

10/16/2013 4:55:00 PM

It's not often that a college football player breaks a career record on a Tuesday, but that's exactly what happened this week, sort of.
 
A trio of Statesmen have been stalking history this season, senior running back Steven Webb entered last Saturday's game at Springfield seven rushing touchdowns shy of the career record, senior linebacker Devin Worthington was 2.5 tackles for loss off that career standard, and junior defensive end Tyre Coleman was just a half sack away from Dave Russell's 16-year-old career record of 33.0.
 
Late in the first quarter, the Springfield quarterback rolled out to his left on a pass play. Coleman got a good push off the line and shoved his blocker back into the would-be passer for what the Hobart sideline celebrated as the record-breaking sack.
 
There was only one problem. The official scorer recorded the play as a run and a tackle for loss of 9 yards. The Pride rely on the triple option offense, keeping the ball on the ground for more than 90 percent of their total offense. So much of the success of a team's offense is deception. Get your opponent moving left so you can run right, make them think run so you can pass, etc., so it's easy to see how the original ruling was made.
 
Additionally, Division III statisticians rarely have access to video replays in the press box so getting a second look to see if the offensive line stayed in to pass block or moved down field to clear a path for the run wasn't an option.
 
"In part for breaking the record, Tyre was one of our defensive players of the game," Hobart Defensive Coordinator Nick Grange said. "It wasn't until we got back to campus and took a look at the stats that we realized it wasn't reflected in the official box score. On Tuesday, we appealed with the official scorer who was good enough to reconsider his original ruling.
 
"Tyre has been working so hard this season, fighting through double and triple teams. He's the most dominating player I've ever coached and I'm happy for him to be able to break this record."
 
As for the other two record chasers, Worthington picked up a half tackle for loss and trails Rob Gould's record 59 by two. Webb found the end zone three times to raise his total to 43, four behind Rich Kowalski '76.
 
They resume their pursuit on Saturday, Oct. 26, when nationally-ranked Hobart hosts Rensselaer at Boswell Field. The Liberty League contest is scheduled to kick off at noon.  Ranked No. 5 in the AFCA poll and No. 6 in the D3football.com poll, the Statesmen (5-0, 3-0) are one of 29 undefeated teams remaining in NCAA Division III.
 
WEOS-FM (89.5/90.3 in Geneva) will broadcast the game live. Fans can also follow the action online with All-Access Video and Live Stats.