FB: Liberty League

[ITH radio]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2014/09/14/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show

Spoke with a couple of great kids last night. Most of the news about football players has been pretty bad so hearing these stories was pretty uplifting, for us anyway.

Check it out.

[dlippiel]

Anyone have any video footage of Union's 89 Stagg Bowl appearance?

[UfanBill]

Dlip, As you probably know Union's 1989 Stagg Bowl game vs Dayton was shown on local TV in the Capital District.  I watched the game and recorded it on VHS tape and STILL HAVE IT!  I haven't attempted to watch it in many years so I can't guarantee what condition the tape is in but you remind me that it needs to be put on a DVD. Union opened that game with a strong TD drive to lead 7-0 but a miscue on a punt just before halftime allowed Dayton to take control.  Definitely a winnable game for U but...in the end Dayton( who went DI soon after) won 17-7.

[ITH radio]

Mike Richardson was the punter for union right?

[Pat Coleman]

Anyone have any video footage of Union's 89 Stagg Bowl appearance?

It can be purchased from Amazon. And if you do it from our link, we get like a buck and a half. http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/1989/index

[dlippiel]

Anyone have any video footage of Union's 89 Stagg Bowl appearance?

It can be purchased from Amazon. And if you do it from our link, we get like a buck and a half. http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/1989/index

dlip just ordered it from the link provided! Thanks for the link Pat and thanks for the response UfanBill. Bill, U headed up to SLU next week? slip will be there. SLU's D looked really good in the second half yesterday against Mo'ville (who may have been a tad over-rated after hearing how awful Wick is). Either way it's going to be a tough game for the Dutchmen. On the bright side for Union, even though the Saints put up 31 dlip wasn't impressed with their O at all.

dlip will have a write-up on the loss to Utica and his outlook/preview for the SLU game mid-week (or hopefully earlier). After last week's loss dlip seriously needed a week to gather himself before he could write anything publicly about the game.

[ITH radio]

A stat I should have had handy last Sunday was the LL's 14-8 OOC record.

One "caveat" that's important to note is that 6 of those 8 losses were decided by 7 pts or less. In fact (if I did the math right), LL teams lost on average of 3.5 pts in those six OOC games. Only the Woo State over WPI and CGA over MMA were kind of "decisive" victories by OOC opponents. That said the "problem" is probably the fact that the losses were to:

2 NEFC
1 MASCAC
1 ECFC (twice by 10-7 margins. The SLU loss being a real headscratcher)

3 E8 losses is somewhat bolstered by the fact those E8 (er 9) teams are a combined 8-0 and total points separating W's from L's in those games was only 15 points, i.e., less than a TD/game.

[dlippiel]

A stat I should have had handy last Sunday was the LL's 14-8 OOC record.

One "caveat" that's important to note is that 6 of those 8 losses were decided by 7 pts or less. In fact (if I did the math right), LL teams lost on average of 3.5 pts in those six OOC games. Only the Woo State over WPI and CGA over MMA were kind of "decisive" victories by OOC opponents. That said the "problem" is probably the fact that the losses were to:

2 NEFC
1 MASCAC
1 ECFC (twice by 10-7 margins. The SLU loss being a real headscratcher)

3 E8 losses is somewhat bolstered by the fact those E8 (er 9) teams are a combined 8-0 and total points separating W's from L's in those games was only 15 points, i.e., less than a TD/game.

dlip just doesn't think the LL is very strong this season (or really has been in quite some time). In his opinion we are below the E8, MAC, and NJAC (although in dlip's opinion the NJAC isn't looking very strong either) without question.

The losses to NEFC, MASCAC, and ECFC teams continue to hurt others' perception of the LL's strength, and rightfully so. With that said dlip thinks WNEC (who defeated Springfield) is definitely no slouch this season. dlip watched that game and was quite impressed with them. On the flip side SLU's loss to Norwich is absolutely ****ing puzzling and embarrassing. MMA **** the bed against a poor Coast Guard team, and then of course Norwich also defeated an almost always disappointing WPI team. The LL needs to win these games in dlip's opinion.

*Regarding the above statements know dlip considers Union just as much if not more at fault than any LL team. Union lost a home and home with Salve and lost to WNEC last season. Not good...

[Bombers798891]

I'm glad to see the LL making some headway out of conference, and further distancing itself from the disaster of 2010. And yes, they could have knocked off some E8 teams. That said, I agree largely with Dlip. There's not much to this record. The wins are over:

Dickinson— 4-9 since 2013
Curry (x2)— 4-8 since 2013
Endicott— 9-5 since 2013
Alfred State— 1-9 since 2013
Gallaudet— 9-3 since 2013
The Apprentice School
SUNY-Maritime— 6-7 since 2013
Norwich— 10-5 since 2013[
Castleton State— 2-10 since 2013
Mount Ida— 5-8 since 2013
Mass-Dartmouth— 4-8 since 2013
Morrisville State— 5-8 since 2013
Coast Guard— 4-9 since 2013.

Nine of the 14 came over teams from the ECFC and NEFC, two of the worst conferences in D-III. Two others came from The Apprentice School and Alfred State. The other three were Dickinson, Mass-Dartmouth (A former NEFC team), and Morrisville State, a combined 13-25 since 2013.

The worst offender is Hobart, who's won 26 straight regular season games and played 1-2 tough opponents in that time. They should be challenging themselves, but instead they've borrowed a page from the old Union playbook. The only difference is that Hobart gets home playoff games thanks to the AQ, while Union, who spent the 80s and 90s ducking scheduling other teams besides Ithaca, was stuck complaining to everyone with a reporter's notebook about the resulting fallout.

[ITH radio]

Great post. Made me want to check the E8 and found somewhat similar results with more than half the conference.

Alfred 1-1 vs RPI since 2013 (Engineers have gone 7-6), Montclair 6-7, Brockport 10-4, now part of conference
Ithaca -  Moravian 4-9 (had 2 wins a year since 2011, worse than Dickinson and lost to Dc by 20+ pts in 2013, Union 3-9
Wick - Husson, Mo State and Becker (enough said)
Utica - L&C 1-11, Union (see above) and Hobart (0-2 against Statesmen, both bad defeats)
Frosberg 1-9 last year, 1-2 vs Geneva, Wynesburg and cwr

Really aside from fisher (Ott isnt a tough team but W&j isn't bad and cort usually is credible although ended up 6-5 and is now 0-2) buff st (balls to play uww) and Salisbury (wesley) E8 scheduling isn't that dissimilar than LL.

Would these E8 opponents lose to nefc and ECFC teams tho? Probably not, although you never know. LL has dropped off and frank is pushing the academics side which makes sense to an extent.

Anyway interesting stats for sure

[Jonny Utah]

Great post. Made me want to check the E8 and found somewhat similar results with more than half the conference.

Alfred 1-1 vs RPI since 2013 (Engineers have gone 7-6), Montclair 6-7, Brockport 10-4, now part of conference
Ithaca -  Moravian 4-9 (had 2 wins a year since 2011, worse than Dickinson and lost to Dc by 20+ pts in 2013, Union 3-9
Wick - Husson, Mo State and Becker (enough said)
Utica - L&C 1-11, Union (see above) and Hobart (0-2 against Statesmen, both bad defeats)
Frosberg 1-9 last year, 1-2 vs Geneva, Wynesburg and cwr

Really aside from fisher (Ott isnt a tough team but W&j isn't bad and cort usually is credible although ended up 6-5 and is now 0-2) buff st (balls to play uww) and Salisbury (wesley) E8 scheduling isn't that dissimilar than LL.

Would these E8 opponents lose to nefc and ECFC teams tho? Probably not, although you never know. LL has dropped off and frank is pushing the academics side which makes sense to an extent.

Anyway interesting stats for sure

Ithaca also played Cortland.

But i think you have to look at teams individually, not as a conference.  After talking with some coaches, many simply want to win as many games as possible, and some simply need to fill in open dates.  Others seek travel games across the country, while others need day trip games to save money.  Then you have rivalry/series games (Ithaca/union, SJF/Rochester, Hobart/Dickenson), and those are basically games to keep scheduling consistent. 

[Bombers798891]

Great post. Made me want to check the E8 and found somewhat similar results with more than half the conference.

Alfred 1-1 vs RPI since 2013 (Engineers have gone 7-6), Montclair 6-7, Brockport 10-4, now part of conference
Ithaca -  Moravian 4-9 (had 2 wins a year since 2011, worse than Dickinson and lost to Dc by 20+ pts in 2013, Union 3-9
Wick - Husson, Mo State and Becker (enough said)
Utica - L&C 1-11, Union (see above) and Hobart (0-2 against Statesmen, both bad defeats)
Frosberg 1-9 last year, 1-2 vs Geneva, Wynesburg and cwr

Really aside from fisher (Ott isnt a tough team but W&j isn't bad and cort usually is credible although ended up 6-5 and is now 0-2) buff st (balls to play uww) and Salisbury (wesley) E8 scheduling isn't that dissimilar than LL.

Would these E8 opponents lose to nefc and ECFC teams tho? Probably not, although you never know. LL has dropped off and frank is pushing the academics side which makes sense to an extent.

Anyway interesting stats for sure

So other than more than a third of the conference, since you forgot cortaca they're the same? So, not the same at all

[boobyhasgameyo]

Great post. Made me want to check the E8 and found somewhat similar results with more than half the conference.

Alfred 1-1 vs RPI since 2013 (Engineers have gone 7-6), Montclair 6-7, Brockport 10-4, now part of conference
Ithaca -  Moravian 4-9 (had 2 wins a year since 2011, worse than Dickinson and lost to Dc by 20+ pts in 2013, Union 3-9
Wick - Husson, Mo State and Becker (enough said)
Utica - L&C 1-11, Union (see above) and Hobart (0-2 against Statesmen, both bad defeats)
Frosberg 1-9 last year, 1-2 vs Geneva, Wynesburg and cwr

Really aside from fisher (Ott isnt a tough team but W&j isn't bad and cort usually is credible although ended up 6-5 and is now 0-2) buff st (balls to play uww) and Salisbury (wesley) E8 scheduling isn't that dissimilar than LL.

Would these E8 opponents lose to nefc and ECFC teams tho? Probably not, although you never know. LL has dropped off and frank is pushing the academics side which makes sense to an extent.

Anyway interesting stats for sure

I assure you that Otterbein is a tougher team than anyone you are likely to find in the NEFC and ECFC.  Unless you see many teams like Castleton State finishing a combined 13-6 in the OAC the last two years like Ott has?  Anyways, Fisher is starting a home and home next year with John Carroll who is a top 10 in the nation team.  But you seemed to be pretty casually dismissing teams like UWW and Wesley, as if it were some casual blurb in this conversation about scheduling cupcakes vs competitive teams, so dismissing the #8 team in the country shouldn't be that big of a deal.

And Washington & Jefferson is more than just a "isn't bad" team.  They are consistently in or just around the top 25 (currently 26th), and a playoff caliber team, just as they were last year and the year before when Fisher played them.  Much like their in conference counterpart and also frequent top 25 companion Thomas More (currently #20)...who Fisher also played against 2 years ago.     

   

[fisheralum91]

Its a proven fact that Fisher schedules strong ooc games.
Its also proven that beside the UMU games- Fisher has won them.
We are talking about scheduling top 10 and 25 teams.
My head is still stuck on the A State game- but that was a scheduling snafu that got fixed with JC next year.

Dont dismiss those games as just another ooc opponent.
Fisher carefully added them to test the metal.
Strong out of conference wins help come playoff time.
Proof was in the pudding last year when they got the c nod.

[Bombers798891]

An E8 team should suffer no criticism for lousy OOC scheduling IMO, because they get enough difficult games in conference play. What passes for a "tough" OOC game for a LL team these days (Ithaca, Alfred, or Utica), an E8 team sees as "The easy part of the season where we don't have to play Fisher or Salisbury, thank God." Hartwick could play three high school teams OOC for all I care—they're still playing four games in the regular season tougher than anything Hobart will see.

Despite that, E8 teams frequently do schedule good teams OOC. I'm pretty sure Fisher would play Michigan State if they were allowed to.

Honestly though, outside of Hobart, I don't have a huge problem with LL scheduling. Not everyone believes the Fisher route is right for them. Scheduling is a tricky balance. Look at Buff State in the early 2000s for what happens when you're too ambitious. If you want to schedule winnable games, go for it. But then don't expect a 14-8 OOC record to go unexamined.