FB: Liberty League

[ITH radio]

In an interview with a SLU from earlier in the season it kind of sounded like SLU may have overlooked the Cadets somewhat. The weather that day was awful and SLU is really a passing O now so that messed them up too.

Ultimately a few drops on the final series made a potential close win a loss. SLU really should be 5-0 IMO. I do think RPI will give them fits and could win, but SLU's D seems pretty tough. Chryon Brown-Wallace will give the RPI OL a tough day.

So you think St. Lawrence is favored in this one?  I didn't have that feeling.  Should be a good game.  Weather looks to be nice, it's homecoming in Troy.  I think RPI mops the field with them personally, but RPI has definitely had letdown games in the past few years so who knows...

Not favored, but I usually lean towards defense in close ones. Right now SLU has a slight edge there, so I picked them 17-14 on Sunday night. Frank went with RPI 27-24. I wouldn't be surprised either way. Wish I'd seen the stat that SLU hasn't won at Troy since the 80s...

Lefflbine played well vs RPI last season and that (plus turnovers) was the difference. If RPI's D steps up (and I do believe that unit is improved from 2013), it could be a tough day for the Saints.

And yes, the black unis were sharp. Made them our Twitter profile pic for the week.

[lewdogg11]

In an interview with a SLU from earlier in the season it kind of sounded like SLU may have overlooked the Cadets somewhat. The weather that day was awful and SLU is really a passing O now so that messed them up too.

Ultimately a few drops on the final series made a potential close win a loss. SLU really should be 5-0 IMO. I do think RPI will give them fits and could win, but SLU's D seems pretty tough. Chryon Brown-Wallace will give the RPI OL a tough day.

So you think St. Lawrence is favored in this one?  I didn't have that feeling.  Should be a good game.  Weather looks to be nice, it's homecoming in Troy.  I think RPI mops the field with them personally, but RPI has definitely had letdown games in the past few years so who knows...

Not favored, but I usually lean towards defense in close ones. Right now SLU has a slight edge there, so I picked them 17-14 on Sunday night. Frank went with RPI 27-24. I wouldn't be surprised either way. Wish I'd seen the stat that SLU hasn't won at Troy since the 80s...

Lefflbine played well vs RPI last season and that (plus turnovers) was the difference. If RPI's D steps up (and I do believe that unit is improved from 2013), it could be a tough day for the Saints.

And yes, the black unis were sharp. Made them our Twitter profile pic for the week.

RPI's D looks pretty good this year, minus giving up 34 on a rainy day vs. Alfred.  It's still tough for me to buy in on St. Lawrence actually being any good.  Even when they won the LL a few years ago they were still terrible.  And there is ZERO consistency in that program so they are just a tough one to take seriously for me.

[dlippiel]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

This all just continues to say that Union doesn't have enough talented players and I just find that way too hard to believe.  I guess we just have to see how it shakes out.  It's entirely possible that their first 4 games were against very good teams.  We'll get a better gauge on St. Lawrence this week vs. RPI, Springfield vs. Hobart, Ithaca vs. Buff St, and Utica vs. Salisbury.  Every game Union has played was a close loss so it doesn't seem so much a talent issue to me, but a failure to know how to win in critical moments or a big mistake here or there.  I think those 2 Salve Regina losses in 2011 and 2012 maybe foreshadowed that.  This weekend should be a great one to see where everyone stands and Union has a week off to evaluate just where they are.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.

St. Lawrence scares me a bit for RPI, but how in the world did they lose to Norwich?   So confusing.[/
dlip spoke about this immediately after he saw the result...and then even more so after he watched SLU beat Morrisville...and then even more after they beat Union. Not just that they beat Morrisville and Union but the style they play and the athleticism of their defense and many of their offensive players. dlip does not believe they are world beaters but a very good team. He still has no ****ing idea (dlip going back to the cursing here) how SLU lost this game. it's going to be a great game in Troy on Saturday. Believe it or not dlip is pulling for RPI here.

[dlippiel]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

Difference is both SLU and RPI hockey grant full athletic scholarships where Union does not. Hence Union hockey has to use all the resources they can to get these players to come to Union. That means all the focus. Think about it. A non scholarship hockey team just won the national championship running over full scholarship programs left and right. As a hockey guy who played Junior A hockey alongside mostly all future D1 players the recruiting game is beyond competitive. If you don't have $ to throw around scholarship wise you better find ways to get that money to the players or at lease offer them other type academic packages, etc or the top of the heap kids simply WILL NOT come. A few years back Union started to label Canadian kids "foreigners" and worked something out to get these Canadians some $. dlip knows many hockey players come from affluent families but just imagine how much focus and resources a non-scholarship D1 athletic department has to use to compete against schools that give full and/or partial rides (most hockey scholarships are partial and broken up).

dlip is not saying this is the entire reason for Union's struggles, it is not and there has been some positive things as far as notoriety goes from the hockey. You just can't compare the D1 Hobart/Lax (hockey budget vs lax not even in the same stratosphere), SLU and RPI hockey situations to Union's. Very very different.

[Jonny Utah]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

Difference is both SLU and RPI hockey grant full athletic scholarships where Union does not. Hence Union hockey has to use all the resources they can to get these players to come to Union. That means all the focus. Think about it. A non scholarship hockey team just won the national championship running over full scholarship programs left and right. As a hockey guy who played Junior A hockey alongside mostly all future D1 players the recruiting game is beyond competitive. If you don't have $ to throw around scholarship wise you better find ways to get that money to the players or at lease offer them other type academic packages, etc or the top of the heap kids simply WILL NOT come. A few years back Union started to label Canadian kids "foreigners" and worked something out to get these Canadians some $. dlip knows many hockey players come from affluent families but just imagine how much focus and resources a non-scholarship D1 athletic department has to use to compete against schools that give full and/or partial rides (most hockey scholarships are partial and broken up).

dlip is not saying this is the entire reason for Union's struggles, it is not and there has been some positive things as far as notoriety goes from the hockey. You just can't compare the D1 Hobart/Lax (hockey budget vs lax not even in the same stratosphere), SLU and RPI hockey situations to Union's. Very very different.

I keep hearing of this "focus on hockey", but I'm going to need some specific examples to believe it.  Without knowing too much about non-schlorship d-1 financial aid and it's effect on financial aid to the general student body, I'm guessing most of the problems are in that area.

I mean, if Hobart budgets 750k for football, and 1 million for Lax, and Union budgets 750k for football, and 2.5 million for hockey, that shouldn't really give Hobart any advantage over union in football, just because there is an extra "focus" on hockey.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't really see the hockey argument either.

[ITH radio]

In 2009, Union and RPI spent almost 600K a piece on FB compared to HOB at 345K and SLU at 430K.

Not sure how those budgets have gone up or down since then (guessing up for all given costs in general at schools continue to climb) and I don't know how much running a D1 hockey program costs. Half as many players as a FB team, but the travel budget has to be way higher.

My guess with respect to Dlip's point is that Union is doing it non-scholarship its probably via bolstering aid to hockey guys now that used to go to FB players, meaning less depth as far as recruiting goes.

Also though, I wonder whether SLU/RPI offers full rides or if they are allocated like 15 scholly's that need to be divided up amongst and entire roster? That's how it often works in other D1 sports (other than FBS FB obviously).

[jackson5]

The D1/D3 thing is interesting. I could see how it could hurt on one hand but then again, you have JHU that's winning the CC almost every year and getting better as a nationally ranked FB program while their school is 200%+ about their D1 lax program.

Hobart has sort of benefited from their lax program going D1 but in a different way. The program has struggled but it still has gained the school some national exposure plus allows two sport athletes who couldn't play D1 FB a chance to compete in both sports (e.g., guys like Justin Hager who was a great LB for HOB in the late 2000's). RPI and SLU's D1 hockey programs haven't seemed to hurt their FB programs either. RPI just had it's coaching debacle and now is back on track with Isernia. Raymond struggled in first two years and now SLU has won 11 of 15.

Ultimately Union is a NESCAC type of school and maybe the reality is if the admissions office is only allowing those types of student athletes in, that could be part of the issue. Obviously teams like Amherst and Trinity could probably compete and/or beat LL schools in certain years, but its hard to say how good or bad the NESCAC teams are given they don't compete with anyone outside their league.

Difference is both SLU and RPI hockey grant full athletic scholarships where Union does not. Hence Union hockey has to use all the resources they can to get these players to come to Union. That means all the focus. Think about it. A non scholarship hockey team just won the national championship running over full scholarship programs left and right. As a hockey guy who played Junior A hockey alongside mostly all future D1 players the recruiting game is beyond competitive. If you don't have $ to throw around scholarship wise you better find ways to get that money to the players or at lease offer them other type academic packages, etc or the top of the heap kids simply WILL NOT come. A few years back Union started to label Canadian kids "foreigners" and worked something out to get these Canadians some $. dlip knows many hockey players come from affluent families but just imagine how much focus and resources a non-scholarship D1 athletic department has to use to compete against schools that give full and/or partial rides (most hockey scholarships are partial and broken up).

dlip is not saying this is the entire reason for Union's struggles, it is not and there has been some positive things as far as notoriety goes from the hockey. You just can't compare the D1 Hobart/Lax (hockey budget vs lax not even in the same stratosphere), SLU and RPI hockey situations to Union's. Very very different.

I keep hearing of this "focus on hockey", but I'm going to need some specific examples to believe it.  Without knowing too much about non-schlorship d-1 financial aid and it's effect on financial aid to the general student body, I'm guessing most of the problems are in that area.

I mean, if Hobart budgets 750k for football, and 1 million for Lax, and Union budgets 750k for football, and 2.5 million for hockey, that shouldn't really give Hobart any advantage over union in football, just because there is an extra "focus" on hockey.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't really see the hockey argument either.

You're close but reading it wrong. Both schools have 1 million budgets for this purpose (no idea what the real numbers are) both spend 300K on the rest of their sports. Hobart spends 350K on Lax, that leaves them 350K for football. Meanwhile Union spends 600K on hockey that leaves them with 100K for football. That's why being D-1 hockey isn't a huge advantage necessarily. If it takes away from football money it's a detriment. Also can hurt when the recruits show up and find out that everyone cares about hockey but couldn't care less about football.

Also we need to stop saying well RPI is winning. They have one of the best facilities if not the best one in the region. Combine that with the education and the real question is why aren't they top 10 in the nation and fighting Mount Union for titles.

[dlippiel]

dlip doesn't understand the issue here fellas??? He believes he made it clear that he is not placing all the blame on Union's struggles (not even close) on the aforementioned topic. With that said you should be able to see that within an athletic department that has all d3 sports and 1 D1 sport that even at that level is behind the eight ball (not giving scholarships) how in the name of the lord could they compete without taking resources like admissions exceptions, some $, and the overall prioritization of the sport over others. If you think that Union Football is getting the same attention and focus from the athletic department that they used to you are just flat wrong. Is this the complete reason that the football team is fledgling? No but it clearly has a role.

Utah so what your saying is that if Ithaca all of a sudden fielded a D1 hockey program that did not give scholarships and wished to compete in the top echelon of the division that IC could make that happen AND provide football with the same attention it gets now?

[lewdogg11]

dlip doesn't understand the issue here fellas??? He believes he made it clear that he is not placing all the blame on Union's struggles (not even close) on the aforementioned topic. With that said you should be able to see that within an athletic department that has all d3 sports and 1 D1 sport that even at that level is behind the eight ball (not giving scholarships) how in the name of the lord could they compete without taking resources like admissions exceptions, some $, and the overall prioritization of the sport over others. If you think that Union Football is getting the same attention and focus from the athletic department that they used to you are just flat wrong. Is this the complete reason that the football team is fledgling? No but it clearly has a role.

Utah so what your saying is that if Ithaca all of a sudden fielded a D1 hockey program that did not give scholarships and wished to compete in the top echelon of the division that IC could make that happen AND provide football with the same attention it gets now?

Isn't Union making any money off of the success of the hockey program?  I don't know how much $ is in College hockey.  This is just a question as I am not educated on the matter.  Also, is the Scholarship thing a school choice, or are they not allowed to give hockey scholarships?

[jackson5]

dlip doesn't understand the issue here fellas??? He believes he made it clear that he is not placing all the blame on Union's struggles (not even close) on the aforementioned topic. With that said you should be able to see that within an athletic department that has all d3 sports and 1 D1 sport that even at that level is behind the eight ball (not giving scholarships) how in the name of the lord could they compete without taking resources like admissions exceptions, some $, and the overall prioritization of the sport over others. If you think that Union Football is getting the same attention and focus from the athletic department that they used to you are just flat wrong. Is this the complete reason that the football team is fledgling? No but it clearly has a role.

Utah so what your saying is that if Ithaca all of a sudden fielded a D1 hockey program that did not give scholarships and wished to compete in the top echelon of the division that IC could make that happen AND provide football with the same attention it gets now?

Isn't Union making any money off of the success of the hockey program?  I don't know how much $ is in College hockey.  This is just a question as I am not educated on the matter.  Also, is the Scholarship thing a school choice, or are they not allowed to give hockey scholarships?

Not allowed to give scholarships in just one sport anymore. Either go all in and be D-1 in all sports or no scholarships. Some teams like RPI and John Hopkins were grandfathered in. Union wasn't as lucky.

[lewdogg11]

RE:  RPI's facilities

This is only a few years old.  RPI's facilities forever were terrible and the Administration gave nothing to make them better.  Finally they decided to open their pocketbooks for whatever reason(Time will tell if there is an underlying reason for it) and they now have great facilities.  Once the coaching situation is stable, the facilities will probably be a nice advantage.  But RPI's academics are and will always be a challenge.

[ITH radio]

Not to mention the weather and the Friendosaurus that live on campus....

[lewdogg11]

Not to mention the weather and the Friendosaurus that live on campus....

I believe the plural is 'Friendasauri'.  There are way more than 1.  <LD shudders>

[jackson5]

RE:  RPI's facilities

This is only a few years old.  RPI's facilities forever were terrible and the Administration gave nothing to make them better.  Finally they decided to open their pocketbooks for whatever reason(Time will tell if there is an underlying reason for it) and they now have great facilities.  Once the coaching situation is stable, the facilities will probably be a nice advantage.  But RPI's academics are and will always be a challenge.

Yes they are new and thats why they haven't had success yet. But like you said once they get this coaching thing figured out they are going to be a power. I see how academics can be a challenge, limiting their talent pool, but at the same time it opens them up to D-2 and D-1 athletes who have the brains and are looking for a great degree.

[Jonny Utah]

dlip doesn't understand the issue here fellas??? He believes he made it clear that he is not placing all the blame on Union's struggles (not even close) on the aforementioned topic. With that said you should be able to see that within an athletic department that has all d3 sports and 1 D1 sport that even at that level is behind the eight ball (not giving scholarships) how in the name of the lord could they compete without taking resources like admissions exceptions, some $, and the overall prioritization of the sport over others. If you think that Union Football is getting the same attention and focus from the athletic department that they used to you are just flat wrong. Is this the complete reason that the football team is fledgling? No but it clearly has a role.

Utah so what your saying is that if Ithaca all of a sudden fielded a D1 hockey program that did not give scholarships and wished to compete in the top echelon of the division that IC could make that happen AND provide football with the same attention it gets now?

Well that's what I'm asking.  If you still have the same coaching staff, the same facilities, the same recruiting budget, the same amount of financial aid that I assume within the rules must be consistent with all student a regardless of divisional sport (again, like I said, I am not that knowledgable about non- scholarship financial aid and admissions for d1 sports and if that has some sort of exemption) then no, football probably shouldnt be effected.

I'm asking for specifics.  Like union used to spend x on football and now they spend y because money was diverted to Nother sport, or that the financial aid and admissions offices no longer bend for football players, instead they diverted those resources towards hockey players.

Without specifics, I don't think you can just say hockey takes away from football because they won a national championship.  I'm not implying that you said it is a major factor either, just that I don't really see that as a reason at all unless I see some sort of actual data.