FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

It works only about 40% of the time in college, and that includes all divisions -- my guess is that it is slightly lower in Division III.  Because the play is from the 3, it takes most standard rush plays out of the equation.  Most teams have special 2ptConv plays in the book to make sure they edge up their chances -- but Hobart ran a pretty standard pass play.  Honestly, if there's that level of trust in the players, then let the players play football (i.e., an Overtime period or two) and win the game.  Making those decisions actually signifies some sort of doubt to many people.  If this were a road game, maybe it changes my overall assessment... But it wasn't, and I was pretty shocked that they went for two, even after covering Hobart for the past two decades in some capacity and knowing the gambling style of the coaches.  Just food for thought.

Sooooooo, about that Union game.

Around 8:00pm, we discuss the game and Union in a couple different segments.  Glad you're so excited to hear more of my (and James Baker's) thoughts on football!  Thanks, LD!  (oh, and we had a terrific interview with Coach Isernia in case you have any interest in discussion about your college's team...)

[lewdogg11]

It works only about 40% of the time in college, and that includes all divisions -- my guess is that it is slightly lower in Division III.  Because the play is from the 3, it takes most standard rush plays out of the equation.  Most teams have special 2ptConv plays in the book to make sure they edge up their chances -- but Hobart ran a pretty standard pass play.  Honestly, if there's that level of trust in the players, then let the players play football (i.e., an Overtime period or two) and win the game.  Making those decisions actually signifies some sort of doubt to many people.  If this were a road game, maybe it changes my overall assessment... But it wasn't, and I was pretty shocked that they went for two, even after covering Hobart for the past two decades in some capacity and knowing the gambling style of the coaches.  Just food for thought.

Sooooooo, about that Union game.

Around 8:00pm, we discuss the game and Union in a couple different segments.  Glad you're so excited to hear more of my (and James Baker's) thoughts on football!  Thanks, LD!  (oh, and we had a terrific interview with Coach Isernia in case you have any interest in discussion about your college's team...)

It's just so odd why you have such a hang up on a 2 pt conversion call from a coach who has made his living taking chances over the years. Cragg has never made the 'vanilla' play call with a game on the line and more times than not, it's worked in his favor. But one time, in a down year for Hobart, it doesn't work out, and the storm troopers are out to make him do the Game of Thrones SHAME walk. Meanwhile, you'll probably say something about hockey budgets and recruiting problems due to high tuition rates regarding the debacle in Schenectady.

[Frank Rossi]

Oddly, I picked on the comparison of last week's MMA 2ptConv as justification for this week's because of different scenarios and also discuss, as did Ted, the other interesting call that led to RPI's third field goal.  It's football, and Coach Cragg and his staff can accept the discussion, I'm sure.  They're big boys and can manage themselves.  It comes with the job.  What I'll note is that during the last few years of dominance, there have been less trick plays and gambles and more straight-up football for Hobart.  I'm not talking a subtle amount -- it's been very noticeable.  Were you aware of that?

Unfortunately with respect to Union, Jason, you're not going to bait me to go much further than I do on "In the HuddLLe" as I'm a bit more entrenched in the program's behind-the-scenes efforts and issues.  What I'll say here is what I have said publicly in the past and recent past.  Some of what you brought up has been the case for years -- D1 Hockey is a resource vacuum at times, especially when the women's side (which is generally a revenue-non-existent program for schools that have it) command near-equal resources.  It comes at the cost of all D3 programs in some schools because budgets are very limited unless the school can find other ways to fill the gaps.  It also can help swallow other resources, including the number of admissions of risky student-athletes in D3 sports since enrollment a generally aren't growing at the same schools.  Therefore, to maintain academic profiles, less risks can be taken across all sports.  A school like Union is generally experiencing this D1/D3 fit problem, and St. Lawrence showed signs of it when they didn't file for the ECACs last year (budget being the most likely reason, especially if other sports would become eligible and force a consistent treatment for declarations across the board).

Is it all budget and admissions issues?  No.  Are there some coaching hiccups?  Of course.  That said, with the exception of the WNEU game (and they're rolling over everyone), Union has been within a possession with a chance to take the lead (or have held the lead) in every game's fourth quarter.  Coaching can help make that happen if resources aren't there to win every game.  It's tough to watch, but Union has to redouble in admissions and budget for a few years to really give ANY coaching staff a chance to win like the "old days" of Union Football.  Simply changing coaches won't make that happen.

[lewdogg11]

As always Frank, you win. Go celebrate.

[D3pc]

It is true. SLU, RPI, Union all have the D3 sports/D1 hockey for both men and women which can eat away at costs. And not to sound sexist, but the women's hockey games just don't fill up. Based on numbers, an average crowd is a few hundred people which isn't going to pay for the scholarships on the ice.

In the case of St Lawrence, i know Coach Raymond has the same mindset of old Coach Welch...Yes, it may or may not be financially feasible, but ECACs are looked at like a consolation game and they want no part of it. You can agree or disagree, but its playoffs or nothing for guys like that. Some school promote those games as 'post-season' play to entice recruits. I even know that some schools have gotten rings for winning an ECAC game. Could be a pretty interesting topic to continue talking about on the show, i know it has been recently.

[Frank Rossi]

LD, that's not about winning.  Can you discuss any football topic without getting all manic lately?  You often added a lot of good content, but you're getting all fired up for no real reason.  Debating going for 2 at home is a football debate ripe for these boards. 

D3pc, Raymond didn't really say that in our interview with him from a couple weeks ago.  Maybe behind the scenes, you're right, but I didn't leave the editing of the interview with James Baker he did thinking he was against the games.

[dlippiel]

More interesting than necessary, there is no admission charge at Union Woman's Hockey games. They are about as sparsely attended as any sport dlip has ever watched at Union...dlip only knows this because rlip tells him...

[D3pc]

@Frank I did listen to that broadcast. Kind of the bill belichick approach where everything is great on the surface. And again, on any given day you could be for them or against them. I haven't truly made up my mind on the games as kids usually don't take the week very seriously, but it is another chance to play the game we love - especially for seniors. Interested to see how this all works out in just a few weeks.

@Dlip Kind of forgot about that part. Could you imagine if you had to pay to get in? I really don't mean to come off as an ass I promise you, but we all know how the men's teams carry athletic programs (Kentucky, Alabama).

[lewdogg11]

LD, that's not about winning.  Can you discuss any football topic without getting all manic lately?  You often added a lot of good content, but you're getting all fired up for no real reason.  Debating going for 2 at home is a football debate ripe for these boards. 

D3pc, Raymond didn't really say that in our interview with him from a couple weeks ago.  Maybe behind the scenes, you're right, but I didn't leave the editing of the interview with James Baker he did thinking he was against the games.

A 2-point conversion is 'ripe' for the boards but giving up 3 td's in 7 and a half minutes with a 17 point lead isn't?  OK Frank.  Where have you even been all year?  You hide out and then decide around ECAC submission time to come out of the woodwork for what reason I do not know, then you give zero insight on the program you actually support.  You're a joke, you're here only to piss people off and i'll hand it to you, you're very good at it.  There is zero likability about you or your posts.  You've put me on the brink of Post Pattern retirement many times because you completely suck the fun out of it all.  You enjoy the rest of the season, i'll be over in my fort being manic with some people that actually matter.  Enjoy the rest of the season gentlemen.

[AUPepBand]

LD, that's not about winning.  Can you discuss any football topic without getting all manic lately?  You often added a lot of good content, but you're getting all fired up for no real reason.  Debating going for 2 at home is a football debate ripe for these boards. 

D3pc, Raymond didn't really say that in our interview with him from a couple weeks ago.  Maybe behind the scenes, you're right, but I didn't leave the editing of the interview with James Baker he did thinking he was against the games.

A 2-point conversion is 'ripe' for the boards but giving up 3 td's in 7 and a half minutes with a 17 point lead isn't?  OK Frank.  Where have you even been all year?  You hide out and then decide around ECAC submission time to come out of the woodwork for what reason I do not know, then you give zero insight on the program you actually support.  You're a joke, you're here only to piss people off and i'll hand it to you, you're very good at it.  There is zero likability about you or your posts.  You've put me on the brink of Post Pattern retirement many times because you completely suck the fun out of it all.  You enjoy the rest of the season, i'll be over in my fort being manic with some people that actually matter.  Enjoy the rest of the season gentlemen.

Come on, LD, quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel. 

But seriously, LD, your posts lighten the boards, keep Pep laughing and enjoying PP. And, Frank takes things too seriously and is always right.

[Frank Rossi]

So, Jason, here's how it works: I responded to posts the last couple weekends when I had some extra time concerning two-point conversion plays and going for it on fourth down in your own territory.  We have some nice back and forth, and then you run in here and tell me I MUST discuss Union's collapse in Saturday's game.  And Union's bad season.  I must!  And in reality, in my last post, because I actually do respect you, I reiterated things I've said elsewhere that you might have missed along the way to help reassure you that I'm not ducking the question.  I also felt the need to show support for Kurt and Bob (which you clarified to it being just Bob) against whatever vendetta you possess.  I couldn't quite understand why my simple allusion to their discussion of Rochester going for it on fourth down was fodder for you to say some of the things you did.

If you had that much legitimate concern about my whereabouts this season, then you were welcome to private message me here or on Facebook.  dlip, ITH, Pat, and others who watch this stuff know that I took a step back from broadcasting this year to concentrate on my professional life with a major project moving forward in our family business, and I also wanted to concentrate on improving as a referee because I'm considering getting certified.  In addition, I've taken a more "adult" role related to Union Football to try to get things turned back around over the next few years, as there have been some real problems with how the school has managed the D1/D3 spread (and as I said, for me, it's not just football getting that treatment -- Union has to decide at some point whether it is a D1 school with many D3 sports or a D3 school with a single D1 sport).  i don't duck issues or questions, and by now, you should know that -- I co-host a weekly show that discusses all eight teams, not just one or two of them.

With respect to the ECACs, it's an important cross-regional issue that James and I found somewhat interesting -- we wanted to see people's reactions before talking with the ECAC, and we did have an exclusive we were excited about concerning getting clarifications to some points.  I'm sorry if my reappearance offended you.  I mean, during some of our meetings, Pat forgot to tell me apparently that he handed you the keys to the message board kingdom and that I'm required to pre-clear my posts and lack thereof with you.  I'll do better next time, I promise.  So, listen, the LLPP is all yours.  I don't want to chase you away.  Obviously, you're impassioned about lampooning D3 football and the teams of the LL, and my presence somehow detracts from that.

Carry on, Sir.  Carry on.

[bman]

Did Lewdogg actually retire?...

He's listed as guest now....

this is where we need 'gro to step in and discuss frozen cat turds etc...to reduce the tension...

LD11 and Frank should sit down over some Irish Car Bombs and discuss wooden shoes...it will all be alright....

[ITH radio]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2015/10/26/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show

A bit long winded (what do you expect from a banker and lawyer?!?) so you can catch Coach I at 33 mins, Zach from WPI at 53 and Alec from SLU at 67 marks.

East Region and ECAC discussion closes out at 78.

Also covered ECAC with Coach I and it was interesting what his thoughts were on the changes made by them, having to travel vs host.

[Bartman]

LD, that's not about winning.  Can you discuss any football topic without getting all manic lately?  You often added a lot of good content, but you're getting all fired up for no real reason.  Debating going for 2 at home is a football debate ripe for these boards. 

D3pc, Raymond didn't really say that in our interview with him from a couple weeks ago.  Maybe behind the scenes, you're right, but I didn't leave the editing of the interview with James Baker he did thinking he was against the games.

A 2-point conversion is 'ripe' for the boards but giving up 3 td's in 7 and a half minutes with a 17 point lead isn't?  OK Frank.  Where have you even been all year?  You hide out and then decide around ECAC submission time to come out of the woodwork for what reason I do not know, then you give zero insight on the program you actually support.  You're a joke, you're here only to piss people off and i'll hand it to you, you're very good at it.  There is zero likability about you or your posts.  You've put me on the brink of Post Pattern retirement many times because you completely suck the fun out of it all.  You enjoy the rest of the season, i'll be over in my fort being manic with some people that actually matter.  Enjoy the rest of the season gentlemen.

Sad to see Lewdogg leave the boards as he is witty , sarcastic, informed  and sometimes badly behaved but this board has lost some of its most colorful participants( REV where are you ?)I will certainly miss reading his comments until his inevitable return. I had my own extremely frustrating run in with Frank last year when he indirectly( yet obviously) insulted the Hobart Athletic program during an on air halftime interview following the " New York Times Article " and never manned up to admit it. Frank seems to have been  jealous( maybe subconsciously)  of  the Hobart run over the last few years while searching for  reasons for the the Union downturn( D1 hockey , football recruits that need to get higher SATs than Harvard's or whatever...). 
Lewdogg's  comments  often make me laugh and Frank's give me a headache due to the condescending tone despite some valid football content. I give Cragg credit for being a man and going for it at the end of the game even though I screamed at the game ...what are you doing??? Coach Cragg has given Hobart fans some great moments over the years, so you gotta take the bad sometimes( even if it may fly in the face of football decision calculus but it sure surprised the RPI coaches).
I think the Hobart team will come back strong and win this weekend ( and hope for a miracle WPI upset of the Larries)and I will honestly feel bad for Dlip but happy that Frank got his pick wrong this week from the show.

[Frank Rossi]

I think RPI beating Hobart is the ONLY pick I've gotten right this year.  I poke fun at myself as much as anyone, Bartman.  If you saw me on this boards ten years ago, I was an outright a$$hole on these boards.  We all grow up (at least, I hope we do), and we generally become a little more humble.

As for Hobart, I'm happy for them and their success.  It's placed the LL in the spotlight.  The only concerns have obviously been some of the negative national exposure we've discussed before -- but as a whole, the program has been a great example for everyone in the LL.  Hobart is the benchmark right now, even despite the down year, for LL teams to achieve.  That's not jealousy -- it's honest assessment and appreciation.

As for Union and your statements that probably could be considered equally condescending to anything you'd suggest I've stated, it's a question of limited resources in athletics.  How many schools can compete in every sport?  None, because no school has enough resources to accomplish that.  So the question becomes why the proper division of resources is or is not what's presently being achieved.  We pretty much know the reasons for the downturn, but the school needs to be willing to shift resources, pure and simple.  If not, as I said, the name of the Head Coach won't matter much at all.