FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

From the local fish wrap up in Watertown in re: Saturday's game between Hobart and St. Lawrence

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/sports/college-football-officiating-crew-suspended-after-calls-in-st-lawrence-game-video-20151112

CANTON — The seven men who worked as officials at last Saturday's St. Lawrence University football game against Hobart in Geneva will not work another game until next season.

Information obtained by the Times revealed that the crew who worked SLU's controversial 19-17 loss to the Statesmen has been suspended for the final week of the regular season.

Let dlip preface this statement by saying that he would never and probably could never be a good football official. He feels it is a very difficult job...with that said having watched D3 3 football for three decades IDHO BIG mistakes are made at almost every game dlip has seen. It has been very few and far between that dlip has witnessed officiating consistency on the D3 level. Officials are often out of position, overweight (unable to keep up or move out of the way, and generally ****ing clueless...

The questions dlip has are: What are they paid (meaning you get what you pay for usually)? How much training and/or certification do they need? What is the process of their evaluations if there are any?

Again, dlip is not trying to be a dick and pick on officials, he couldn't do the job. However if we are going to begin holding them accountable to the point where they can be suspended dlip feels answers to some of the questions he posed are important.

Plus dlip thinks Raymond just went ballistic and that's maybe why we are seeing this. dlip said it before and he'll say it again, he likes both SLU and Bart very much but he feels that if it was truly SLU's year they would have handled a two loss Hobart team thoroughly and not let the game come down to these calls in question.

Not sure what replay would have done with that last catch.  It looks impossible to tell who ended up catching the ball from that film anyway.  Looks like they should have pretty much let them battle it out on the ground for possession.  Dual possession?  That's lame.

But it seems the bigger issue was when they said 16 out of 20 calls were reviewed and found out to be wrong?  That is bad.

Back in Cortaca 1997, I had a TD called back due to some phantom holding call on a fricking bootleg on an interior lineman.  I'm still pissed to this day about that one.  Refs are useless!!!!

Rant over.

The rule I ref under in flag football is pretty much the universal rule for simultaneous possession -- once a simultaneous possession is noted, normally when the players have come to the ground, the play is immediately over and it is awarded to the offense without benefit of a wrestling match.  I slowed down the video after the article's author (Cap Carey) wrote something dubious in the article and in the YouTube video description -- he claims that SLU was told it should've been ruled as an interception or incomplete.  The ECAC would not have suggested incomplete on that play -- there's no foundation for it.  So, in slowing down the video, it is clear that neither Merrill nor the SLU defender had clear possession of the ball initially.  They both had some control over it, but neither had exclusive control.  They tussled to the ground with some level of control still mutually.  The play is now over.  https://twitter.com/frankrossi/status/664838044407742464

The biggest thing about simultaneous possession is that it is instantaneous and subjective.  I'm pretty sure the ECAC would have graded that specific play "inconclusive" based on how it played out and the video available so far.  I asked several of the national flag refs I work with to view the video, and they, too, reached no conclusive determination on it being a wrong call.  Some of them work High School games and wouldn't have reached a different result.  Again, the suspension is being based on several issues, including the efficiency of the final call being made.  However, that does not undermine the accuracy or subjectivity of the final call.

Just my two cents, as I've had several odd moments with this rule in my time, and nobody ever seems to grasp the result, whether we like it or not, when it's applied in real-time.

[ITH radio]

He (SLU LB / Leigh) did come away with it but WR had possession and crossed plane. Rule states simultaneous goes to O. Not sure why SLU would challenge that obvious rule but article states there were other complaints.

End of day I'm curious what those plays were since Saints were only flagged on six.

[NED3Guy]

Duke spent a week complaining about the end of their Miami game, and forgot to prep for UNC (lost 66-31). Lets hope the boys in Canton don't get caught up worrying about what might have been, and forget that they still control their own fate this week.

Like others have said, you can't allow a good team to stick around long enough to let the officials impact the outcome.

Hopefully they take care of business this weekend and the officiating in the Hobart game isn't a off-season long issue.

(Though from the AD's comments, if and when SLU gets the AQ, and an unfavorable draw in the NCAA's they will blame the Hobart refs for that also....)

[D3pc]

I am on the SLU side for this one but i am not a fan of the article being posted. It just sounds like sour grapes at this point. Hobart had 12 penalties officially called on them so the refs were hesitant to call more even though there very blatantly should have been.

I watched the full game on Hudl and SLU both pissed down their leg at the end and got screwed over by bad calls. Yes there were some that went their way, but Hobart benefited dearly from that crew.

With regard to the video, without a close up view like you get with NFL or d1, you can't truly see what is going on. In this case the ball is not clearly possessed by one person or both until the end. It never hit the ground, which means it should have been ruled an interception. I wish the tight view was a few seconds longer. If you look close enough, #33 for SLU very quickly and easily comes up with it. Dual possession (and a Hobart TD) would have happened if they both remained fighting for it on the ground. Also, for the Hobart WR to officially have a TD, he must 'have possession' or make a 'football play.' Neither of which happened here.

I showed this video to a man who used to ref ACC games but had too much knee pain so he had to stop, and that's what he said.

BUT, with that being said, nothing we can do about it now. If you are on SLU's side, you sound like a cry-baby. If you are a Hobart man, you are considered a cheap winner who needed the refs to win. Losers all around! Especially the refs, they were awful in that game. But it's not the ACC or NFL or whatever, we don't need to publish their names in the local paper.

Here's to hoping SLU/RPI/Hobart doesn't draw Mt Union in round 1. d3football.com has a projected bracket out today and had SLU going to Cortland. Would love to see that.

[stlawus]

Yea it's unfortunate that the dynamic you described has resulted from the game.  Either way, us SLU fans moved on from it.  Just focusing on MM and hoping we secure the league title.  So far it's been a superb year for SLU athletics so this would be a very nice touch.  Here's to a great game on Saturday!

[ITH radio]

NCAA rule 7-3-6 is clear that if a "forward pass is caught simultaneously by opposing players inbounds, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the passing team."

There's no interception (could have been flagged for PI regardless based on video which was conclusive as far as PI goes IMO) so right call on TD based on rules & not controversial (just sucky for guys on losing end). The article takes a lot of liberties and honestly makes SLU look bad which is a shame bc Coach Ray and those kids are a solid, upstanding group.

End of day they can't sleep on MMA. The mariners are underdogs but they weren't supposed to beat Springfield either. No gimmes in LL play this year.

[Jonny Utah]

NCAA rule 7-3-6 is clear that "f a forward pass is caught simultaneously by opposing players inbounds, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the passing team."

There's no interception (could have been flagged for PI regardless based on video which was conclusive IMO) so right call & not controversial. The article takes a lot of liberties and honestly makes SLU look bad which is a shame bc Coach Ray and those kids are a solid, upstanding group.

End of day they can't sleep on MMA. The mariners are underdogs but they weren't supposed to beat Springfield either. No gimmes in LL play this year.

"Caught" is the key word there though.  But if they ruled a simultaneous catch (which is subjective, but probably would be the correct call by rule) then why would the ECAC say the refs were wrong.  Or did the ECAC actually say that?  Frank kind of asks those questions on Twitter but I don't see any answers.  That would piss me off if I were Hobart though.  They kind of come off like cry babies, but I only saw that one call that I can't even make a clear call on myself.

[ITH radio]

My biggest question was if 20 plays were questioned, 16 or 75% were "wrong" and SLU was only flagged for 6....What were the other 10? I doubt SLU would have said "hey you should have called that last Sweeney play in 1st half a TD" (which some people at game said ball broke plane but doesn't matter now).

Probably the "worst" call was PI on SLU on final drive but with the tight man coverage they play it was bound to happen at some point. Hobart's receivers were getting blanketed like you'd expect in any close, competitive game. Prob got held here and there too. Not every call gets made and it goes both ways.

[pg04]

If the video being used by the ECAC is the one in the link I'm not sure how they could say anything about the call on that play. I can't see anything.

[D3pc]

Exactly. The ball was never "caught" buy both players. If they both stayed on the ground fighting for it, then the whistle blew, struggle still continues, yes dual possession. But that didn't happen. No one had the ball, the ball never hit the ground, #33 in white comes right up with it. INT. And i keep seeing 'it should have been a pic or incomplete.' The ball never hit the ground so its either a TD or an INT. Because it was division 3, thats going to get called a touchdown. There is no high def camera zooming in that we can view in slow motion. Since it was inconclusive, right or wrong, it was going hobarts way.

And regarding submitting plays to the ECAC, they actually encourage it as long as it is done in the correct manner. We all know plays submitted are because the team the call went against is PO'd. But because it is division 3 they do actually look at them to learn. But 20 submitted plays is insane. 16 of them being incorrect is even more insane.

As for that first half almost TD by Sweeney, From the Cameras POV (Midfield) I thought he was in. But two sideline judges both very distinctly  made their marks at the half hardline. No one had a better view than they did. Also, I saw the 'coaches' film which shows the wide and tight. The tight view was in that end zone, and you can clearly see he was INCHES away, like 2 or 3.

[ITH radio]

If the video being used by the ECAC is the one in the link I'm not sure how they could say anything about the call on that play. I can't see anything.

I think that was Frank's main point vs Cap. Inconclusive so no way you can say incomplete or INT. Rule says Dead ball, goes to O. TD.

[Jonny Utah]

My biggest question was if 20 plays were questioned, 16 or 75% were "wrong" and SLU was only flagged for 6....What were the other 10? I doubt SLU would have said "hey you should have called that last Sweeney play in 1st half a TD" (which some people at game said ball broke plane but doesn't matter now).

Probably the "worst" call was PI on SLU on final drive but with the tight man coverage they play it was bound to happen at some point. Hobart's receivers were getting blanketed like you'd expect in any close, competitive game. Prob got held here and there too. Not every call gets made and it goes both ways.

Well the calls don't have to be penalties.  They could be spots of the ball, or missed penalties, or the enforcement of those penalties.  Sometimes a ref will call a penalty from a side of the field that they have no business calling, that always bugs me (as a coach myself)

[Frank Rossi]

If the video being used by the ECAC is the one in the link I'm not sure how they could say anything about the call on that play. I can't see anything.

I think that was Frank's main point vs Cap. Inconclusive so no way you can say incomplete or INT. Rule says Dead ball, goes to O. TD.

More specifically, even in national flag tournaments, you do not allow a wrestling match to ensue if you feel one or both players have legitimate control of some portion of the football.  When you believe, as an official, that there is that mutuality, especially with the players on the ground, that play is dead and goes to the offense.  If we allowed a wrestling match: a) somebody is going to be injured (with or without equipment); b) the 225lb LB will always beat the 170lb WR, which makes no sense; and c) we're allowing a play to continue past the point of when it would be normally blown dead if only one player exhibited that control.  The rule and its execution try to be consistent with how we would call the play anywhere else on the field if a single player had possession.

But here's what I cannot underscore enough -- it is very much a subjective and instantaneous call.  I, too, have had various refs send me info today suggesting the video is fully inconclusive.  One pointed out the overall problem: there are two issues at play that we're not separating responsibly.  First, the overall reffing issues that might have existed.  If there was that problem, then suspension, a major decision and punishment in reffing ranks, might have been appropriate.  None of us can judge that, though, based on the info we have.  We can only assume the ECAC was justified if they were suspended.

The second is the question of the ultimate scoring play.  It seems that everyone is marrying the suspension into some conclusion that every call by the officials was wrong.  That doesn't follow from the first.  The ECAC apparently graded the officials for a mistake in procedure in handling the call.  That's different from making a wrong call.

Here's my best guess as to how this all happened.  SLU's AD or someone high up discussed the situation with Bill Ward, the ECAC Director of Football Refs.  In what should've been an off-the-record conversation, I'm guessing Bill listened to the chain of events described and suggested incomplete or interception should've or could've been the correct call.  Then, the ECAC got the film and graded the plays, especially those brought to their attention by SLU.  My guess is the ECAC ruled the ultimate play as "inconclusive" but graded against the officials for procedure and delay.  That document is confidential, as well, and is only provided to teams to show the ECAC is managing their officials and to answer the schools' concerns.  Neither piece of information should've been disseminated to a reporter, IF that is what happened.  And we end up with this amalgamation of inconsistent information that upends the integrity of the game potentially at the hands of people that should've preserved either a spoken or unspoken honor code.

I apologize to Cap Carey if I came across as too much of a pr^^k on Twitter, but he perpetuated something that just wasn't necessary and, as ITH said, runs completely counter to the sportsmanship and attitudes of the SLU players and staff we've dealt with over the years.  Since I've been a ref for the last four years even in national flag, integrity of the game is paramount to me.  Unless we're missing something or lack a video angle someone else has, this whole situation got blown out of control by that article and anyone that perpetuated the information improperly.  It's likely the ECAC and the LL know how this happened and will take measures to prevent it from occurring in the future.  In the meantime, I hope we all sort of understand that a call like that isn't easy, even at 500 frames per second.

Again, this assessment is a guess based on information I collected all day and some of Cap's own Twitter responses.  As such, this is by no means to be treated as Gospel.

[ITH radio]

Frank will be signing his new book "Reffing Ain't Easy" at Barnes and Noble in Times Square tmw btw 4-6pm

[pg04]

Exciting follow up to his previous book, "How not to make friends on the internet."