FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

I agree with both of you.  Unless the AD is purposefully pulling resources from the football program in order to make the head coach fail and have a reason to get rid of him, I don't think there is another option here.  0-10 is a morale crusher (especially after two seasons with 4 wins), and even at the d3 level that will start to kill recruiting and ultimately the program.  Now the women's hockey situation is also questionable to me as well, as someone with a record like that should be on a 5 year leash at the most, even for a 1st year program.  She has been there 8 years and has a record that really cannot be explained.  36-208-26 in 8 years and 4-22-8 last year?  It is time for her to go as well.

I also have a hard time believing that last week the AD simply went up to Audino and asked him to retire.  I hope he told him a few years ago that there would be some goals/benchmarks that Union would need to hit if Audino wanted to keep his job, although I have friends who coach at other d3 institutions who have said that many AD's will simply hint about improving the program, without naming specific parameters like win totals.

This isn't a lollipop festival here, these are college athletic programs.  You are paid to coach, win, and be a mentor to young athletes.  And you aren't entitled to your job either, you work for the school and if you can't do your job anymore (win), it's time for you to move on.  And if the school is making it hard for you?  Then leave.  It's a tough business, and like life, it isn't always fair.

I'd love to see Ithaca hire Audino so they can kick the crap out of Union for the next 100 years.  From what I hear he is a great guy, and probably a good football coach if he had the resources to win. 

Ok rant over.

[dlippiel]

I agree with both of you.  Unless the AD is purposefully pulling resources from the football program in order to make the head coach fail and have a reason to get rid of him, I don't think there is another option here.  0-10 is a morale crusher (especially after two seasons with 4 wins), and even at the d3 level that will start to kill recruiting and ultimately the program.  Now the women's hockey situation is also questionable to me as well, as someone with a record like that should be on a 5 year leash at the most, even for a 1st year program.  She has been there 8 years and has a record that really cannot be explained.  36-208-26 in 8 years and 4-22-8 last year?  It is time for her to go as well.

I also have a hard time believing that last week the AD simply went up to Audino and asked him to retire.  I hope he told him a few years ago that there would be some goals/benchmarks that Union would need to hit if Audino wanted to keep his job, although I have friends who coach at other d3 institutions who have said that many AD's will simply hint about improving the program, without naming specific parameters like win totals.

This isn't a lollipop festival here, these are college athletic programs.  You are paid to coach, win, and be a mentor to young athletes.  And you aren't entitled to your job either, you work for the school and if you can't do your job anymore (win), it's time for you to move on.  And if the school is making it hard for you?  Then leave.  It's a tough business, and like life, it isn't always fair.

I'd love to see Ithaca hire Audino so they can kick the crap out of Union for the next 100 years.  From what I hear he is a great guy, and probably a good football coach if he had the resources to win.

Ok rant over.

Really good post Utah! dlip loves the bold part as well. +k

[HScoach]

For a retired coach..it was interesting to see Larry Kehres on the headsets during the game. Not too many ADs do that eh ? Obviously I get he is close to the program and is the patriarch of the program and family....and they are looking for any advantage..and he is an asset. But..despite it "working"...it comes off as him being the puppet master still. Who really runs the show at Mount  ? Doesn't really matter of course . It must be nice to have an experienced voice in the clouds to give a young coach advice...but it comes off to me as... Vince is not on his own yet.

It's obvious that LK isn't involved in the play calling as there is no way he'd take the crazy chances that VK and Dartt the OC like to do.  Such as a fake punt on your own 35.  LK was very conservative when it came to trick plays and the like. 

[HScoach]

For a retired coach..it was interesting to see Larry Kehres on the headsets during the game. Not too many ADs do that eh ? Obviously I get he is close to the program and is the patriarch of the program and family....and they are looking for any advantage..and he is an asset. But..despite it "working"...it comes off as him being the puppet master still. Who really runs the show at Mount  ? Doesn't really matter of course . It must be nice to have an experienced voice in the clouds to give a young coach advice...but it comes off to me as... Vince is not on his own yet.

It has been stated before (I think even ESPN mentioned it) that the headset allows him to listen only.

And most of the times that ESPN mentioned LK they had the camera on Coach Woj, the D backs coach.  Not LK. 

[bigdvs]

Regarding Union College's commitment to football, I spoke with Audino at the high school team camp in August (seemed in good spirits but tired) and was relayed the current situation in detail from 2 senior staff (long time Coaches all former players would know). Essentially through the 90s Union was supplying the football team with around 3 dozen merit based slots (non scholarship money that they could use to make it easier for players to afford to come to Union). Each one of those could be for almost full or could be split between 2 players, which means that Football could provide tuition assistance for almost the entire Varsity team easily. Over the last decade (so since 2005) those numbers have been consistently reduced and this year they only had 15 partial tuition assistance slots available (explained as they were given a target percentage of no more then 60% of tuition {which is now 60K} could be offered to one player, but if they did find a stud and offered him more assistance then the next 4 guys had to get less so the average assistance remained around the 60% mark). So now the support is barely covering one side of the ball and the impacts of these changes have been slowly taking effect and this year the results of such a terrible policy came to fruition. Never cared for McLaughlin not surprised in the least at how this went down.

[unionfan]

Unionfan is roused from 5+ years of LLPP slumber by the absurdity of the Audino situation, and heartily endorses bigdvs, dlip and Utes' recent comments.  When Unionfan starts to get upset with the school and AD, he tried to remind himself of Hanlon's Razor- "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

A couple of other unvarnished thoughts:

1.  Even if one agreed that Audino should be fired (which Unionfan does not, per below), the way the administration and AD McLaughlin handled this was incompetent and embarrassing to the college.  If you are going to terminate someone, you do it decisively, swiftly and fairly.  You have a plan, you take action, and you take responsibility for that action.  You don't twist in the wind with your panties in a bunch for 30 days before finally releasing an awkward press release that makes pretty clear you're making things up as you go along.  Of course, Union's mishandling of this does not surprise me, as McLaughlin is a weak and ineffective AD.

2.  The debate around how much winning should matter in D3 is a good one.  Unionfan's view is that matters -- it's not the single most important thing (see below), but it is important, mostly because student-athletes deserve to be put in a position where they can achieve success on the field.  But winning requires two essential elements - an administration that gives the team the resources and support needed to be successful, and a coach who can deploy those resources to win games.  If either is missing, you won't see much winning.

3.  Over the past 24 years of Union football, you see 20 very successful years and four poor ones.  You know the coach is a consistent variable across those years, so which is more likely - (i) the coach suddenly become ineffective or (ii) the resources/support needed suddenly changed?  None of us knows the true details about relative level of resources/support, because the Union AD is wholly nontransparent on this stuff, but it seems to me pretty obvious that firing Audino is changing the wrong variable.  Now it may well be the Union has made an institutional choice not to provide real resources/support to its football program, and Audino is the wrong guy to coach a team not well-supported by its AD -- Unionfan legitimately thinks they are coaches out there who specialize in making the mediocre most of an unresourced program, like the old Union men's hockey approach, and the current women's hockey approach.  But that's a very different story than Union is telling - and also a story the alumni would freak out over.

4.  As Unionfan said, winning is important, but there is a higher priority in D3 athletics - educating young men and women and giving the skills and wisdom to succeed in life.  Ask anyone close to Union athletics, and they'll tell you the same thing - Audino does this as well as anyone out there.  Ten years ago, Union said this about Audino when it awarded him its Meritorious Service Award:  "Throughout Audino's 14 years at the helm of Union football, he has been a true educator, teaching his players that there is also much fulfillment outside of football. Through leadership by example, Audino and his coaching staff have instilled in hundreds of players a strong commitment to school, community and family."

5.  As an alum, Unionfan can no longer tell if Union has any discernible mission or plan when it comes to student athletics.  You look at women's ice hockey, the approach seems to be "we simply don't care - we won't support but don't worry about winning."  You look at football, and the approach seems to be "molding and educating kids is nice, but you gotta win games with limited support if you want to stick around.  And you look at men's hockey, and the approach "as long as you win big it's totally cool if you occasionally punch another coach."  As an alum, not a lot to be proud of here.

[NED3Guy]

The Union thing is all very interesting from the outside looking in.

To compare Union and SLU in the past decade is all you need to do to see the impact of support for a program. One once storied program slowly falls due to lack of support; while the other perennial doormat of the league rises to the point where they're a top 25 caliber program.

*Not in any way meant to take away from what Coach Raymond has built up there, he's clearly done an outstanding job, but facts are facts and that program is getting support like never before...he had to fight for and earn that support, but the bottom line is still the same*

A lot of talk on the board about Coach Audino being fired and that the idea that he "resigned" is a PR move to allow a guy to be fired gracefully; but is it possible that he truly was fed up with the direction the program is heading and decided he'd had enough??? Union guys would certainly know best about this, but from all accounts Coach Audino had seen his job become tougher every year because of factors he had no control over...I'd walk away too if I were him.

Lastly, with Williams, Springfield and Union all open is it fair to say that Union is the least appealing job of the 3 right now? If so, I'm curious how that will impact Union's applicant pool and also the time table that they try to make a hire.

[bigdvs]

Was not aware both Springfield and Williams were also in the market for new head coaches, Union probably will have to settle with a local high school coach looking to make the jump and that will be terrible for the near future.

[dlippiel]

The Union thing is all very interesting from the outside looking in.

To compare Union and SLU in the past decade is all you need to do to see the impact of support for a program. One once storied program slowly falls due to lack of support; while the other perennial doormat of the league rises to the point where they're a top 25 caliber program.

*Not in any way meant to take away from what Coach Raymond has built up there, he's clearly done an outstanding job, but facts are facts and that program is getting support like never before...he had to fight for and earn that support, but the bottom line is still the same*

A lot of talk on the board about Coach Audino being fired and that the idea that he "resigned" is a PR move to allow a guy to be fired gracefully; but is it possible that he truly was fed up with the direction the program is heading and decided he'd had enough??? Union guys would certainly know best about this, but from all accounts Coach Audino had seen his job become tougher every year because of factors he had no control over...I'd walk away too if I were him.

Lastly, with Williams, Springfield and Union all open is it fair to say that Union is the least appealing job of the 3 right now? If so, I'm curious how that will impact Union's applicant pool and also the time table that they try to make a hire.

This is a very good thought NED, one that many of us have been having for quite sometime. In dlip's humble opinion Audino should have told Union to "...go and stick it where the ****ing sun don't shine," awhile back. However that's not his MO and dlip thinks honestly that as things got more challenging and the face of Union Football, the one that Audino was a big part of continuing, started to crumble his love of the school, his job, and his competitive edge made him grind harder. dlip thinks that even regardless of the internal situation Dino felt compelled to right the ship...even if he was being asked to do it with his ****ing hands tied behind his back, a blindfold over his face, and the AD and president holding him hostage in a way they never have before. dlip believes wholeheartedly that Dino DID NOT and WOULD NOT walk away.

Over the last five or so years dlip's feelings around what has been the cause of the program's downfall have been all over the place. It is only within the past year that he felt like he could formulate an opinion, based upon what he saw and heard was happening, that was somewhat reflective of what is really happening.

dlip appreciates unionfan's thoughts and if those numbers are accurate...

Essentially through the 90s Union was supplying the football team with around 3 dozen merit based slots (non scholarship money that they could use to make it easier for players to afford to come to Union). Each one of those could be for almost full or could be split between 2 players, which means that Football could provide tuition assistance for almost the entire Varsity team easily. Over the last decade (so since 2005) those numbers have been consistently reduced and this year they only had 15 partial tuition assistance slots available (explained as they were given a target percentage of no more then 60% of tuition {which is now 60K} could be offered to one player, but if they did find a stud and offered him more assistance then the next 4 guys had to get less so the average assistance remained around the 60% mark). So now the support is barely covering one side of the ball and the impacts of these changes have been slowly taking effect and this year the results of such a terrible policy came to fruition.

...than to dlip this is beyond a sad story. What this also means to dlip is that the school, has in essence, sold it's soul to the devil, for division 1 men's hockey. ****, Ned Harkness...if only Ned Harkness could have waited 3 1/2 decades he wouldn't have been run out of Schenectady by academic powers that be like an Al Queda operative at a fourth of July parade. Don't get dlip wrong, he always roots for Union hockey, as he does all Union sports...even women's hockey. However he would trade that National Championship is two seconds for a much more balanced approach that doesn't/didn't strip an historically incredible program and coach of their well earned reputations. If one doesn't believe this to be true see circa 1980's where Union was a D3 power on the ice and on the football field.

There is a lot to this dlip knows, he just thought he'd throw some thoughts out more openly now...

[D3pc]

The Union thing is all very interesting from the outside looking in.

To compare Union and SLU in the past decade is all you need to do to see the impact of support for a program. One once storied program slowly falls due to lack of support; while the other perennial doormat of the league rises to the point where they're a top 25 caliber program.

*Not in any way meant to take away from what Coach Raymond has built up there, he's clearly done an outstanding job, but facts are facts and that program is getting support like never before...he had to fight for and earn that support, but the bottom line is still the same*

A lot of talk on the board about Coach Audino being fired and that the idea that he "resigned" is a PR move to allow a guy to be fired gracefully; but is it possible that he truly was fed up with the direction the program is heading and decided he'd had enough??? Union guys would certainly know best about this, but from all accounts Coach Audino had seen his job become tougher every year because of factors he had no control over...I'd walk away too if I were him.

Lastly, with Williams, Springfield and Union all open is it fair to say that Union is the least appealing job of the 3 right now? If so, I'm curious how that will impact Union's applicant pool and also the time table that they try to make a hire.

Coach Raymond actually doesn't have any additional slots, the man before him in Coach Phelps was just that bad of a collegiate coach and recruiter. Raymond is a Welsh product from Ithaca who took a few years off to do Secret Service work, his mentality shows and coaching style shows.

Union will be fine. But I get the feeling the next coach is more of a stop-gap kind of guy who may be there for only 2-3 years. Can't do any worse than 0-10. If one were to choose between Springfield, Union, and Williams, it would be a tough choice based on the differences between the schools. Springfield attracts a different personnel and has primarily run the triple option for years, so the players (atleast on offense) that you have are smaller and very athletic. Williams is the best academic of the three (Union close behind) but is a completely different animal. Shorter season, no playoffs, no camp, no spring ball, recruiting restrictions, etc. I don't say that negatively either, I just mean that you have to know what you are getting yourself into and that you are recruiting the right players. I actually think Union would be the most attractive job. You are coming in with nothing to lose, you have a lot of talented young players, and you can really go out and get kids from New England, New York, New Jersey to be successful. You can get the same 'smarter' kids looking and williams and you can also get the 'not-as-smart' players who wouldn't. I think a new field would also do wonders for them. The turk is old and has always been known to be very slippery from opposing players. I also wonder what their future schedules look like. If they can replace Ithaca/WNE with a lower quality team, they will be right back in it.

[NED3Guy]

The Union thing is all very interesting from the outside looking in.

To compare Union and SLU in the past decade is all you need to do to see the impact of support for a program. One once storied program slowly falls due to lack of support; while the other perennial doormat of the league rises to the point where they're a top 25 caliber program.

*Not in any way meant to take away from what Coach Raymond has built up there, he's clearly done an outstanding job, but facts are facts and that program is getting support like never before...he had to fight for and earn that support, but the bottom line is still the same*

A lot of talk on the board about Coach Audino being fired and that the idea that he "resigned" is a PR move to allow a guy to be fired gracefully; but is it possible that he truly was fed up with the direction the program is heading and decided he'd had enough??? Union guys would certainly know best about this, but from all accounts Coach Audino had seen his job become tougher every year because of factors he had no control over...I'd walk away too if I were him.

Lastly, with Williams, Springfield and Union all open is it fair to say that Union is the least appealing job of the 3 right now? If so, I'm curious how that will impact Union's applicant pool and also the time table that they try to make a hire.

Coach Raymond actually doesn't have any additional slots, the man before him in Coach Phelps was just that bad of a collegiate coach and recruiter. Raymond is a Welsh product from Ithaca who took a few years off to do Secret Service work, his mentality shows and coaching style shows.

Union will be fine. But I get the feeling the next coach is more of a stop-gap kind of guy who may be there for only 2-3 years. Can't do any worse than 0-10. If one were to choose between Springfield, Union, and Williams, it would be a tough choice based on the differences between the schools. Springfield attracts a different personnel and has primarily run the triple option for years, so the players (atleast on offense) that you have are smaller and very athletic. Williams is the best academic of the three (Union close behind) but is a completely different animal. Shorter season, no playoffs, no camp, no spring ball, recruiting restrictions, etc. I don't say that negatively either, I just mean that you have to know what you are getting yourself into and that you are recruiting the right players. I actually think Union would be the most attractive job. You are coming in with nothing to lose, you have a lot of talented young players, and you can really go out and get kids from New England, New York, New Jersey to be successful. You can get the same 'smarter' kids looking and williams and you can also get the 'not-as-smart' players who wouldn't. I think a new field would also do wonders for them. The turk is old and has always been known to be very slippery from opposing players. I also wonder what their future schedules look like. If they can replace Ithaca/WNE with a lower quality team, they will be right back in it.

Not going to shift this discussion too far away from the topic at hand (Union / Audino), but to make a statement like the one you made about SLU shows a lack of knowledge.

Not only does SLU have a new president, AD, and admissions director since the time Raymond took over, but the school has awarded a record number of presidential diversity scholarships and HEOP grants over the past four years.

So yes, maybe Raymond isn't getting special help but the direction of the university has shifted drastically as of late and Raymond (being smart and getting ahead of it) has done a great job utilizing that new direction to help build his program from 0 fer to champs in 3 years... Without that shift they're still a middle of the road team. Again, they were 0 fer not long ago.

Union will find a great coach. Maybe somebody from the old Bob Ford Albany staff is looking to get back to the capital region? A lot of great coaches on that list.... Maybe wishful thinking.

[ITH radio]

We may not be sending more players to the NFL but once again the LL makes national headlines by winning the GEICO play of the year as called but our own Ted Baker!

👍🏻🏈🏆

[dlippiel]

Dlip wishing all his LLPP brethren a Merry ****ing Christmas!!!!!

[pg04]

Dlip wishing all his LLPP brethren a Merry ****ing Christmas!!!!!

I think you could be the old man (the father) from "A Christmas Story"

"He worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium; a master"

Merry Christmas and +K. I love what you add to this board. 

[Bartman]

I was hoping for a seventh LL team for Christmas....did someone steal my present???