FB: Liberty League

[dlippiel]

Just to say, dlip hopes he didn't come across as defensive or anything like that Bombers. Dlip was just talking Union Football and not referencing the scenario you posted about. He loves your posts, thoughts, and very specific data based scenario breakdowns. He just jumps in with U FB anytime he can.

[Frank Rossi]

We haven't seen the 3-way tie scenario since around 2008, but Frank researched it and I do think the point differential factors in about 3-4 steps down the waterfall.

In the sport of football, the league shall use the following tie-breaking formula to determine the automatic qualifier.  Prior to using the formula to determine the automatic qualifier, co-champions would be declared.

    1.    Head-to-head results.
    2.    Comparison of records between tied institutions beginning with the lowest conference finisher and continuing through the highest conference finisher.  If more than two teams are tied, at the point one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    3.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record of .500 or above.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    4.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record below .500.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    5.    Coin flip.

[Bombers798891]

We haven't seen the 3-way tie scenario since around 2008, but Frank researched it and I do think the point differential factors in about 3-4 steps down the waterfall.

In the sport of football, the league shall use the following tie-breaking formula to determine the automatic qualifier.  Prior to using the formula to determine the automatic qualifier, co-champions would be declared.

    1.    Head-to-head results.
    2.    Comparison of records between tied institutions beginning with the lowest conference finisher and continuing through the highest conference finisher.  If more than two teams are tied, at the point one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    3.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record of .500 or above.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    4.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record below .500.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    5.    Coin flip.

Thanks, Frank.

But this is actually an interesting wrinkle. I'd wondered what would happen if you had a team at 1-1 and a team at 2-2.

[Jonny Utah]

We haven't seen the 3-way tie scenario since around 2008, but Frank researched it and I do think the point differential factors in about 3-4 steps down the waterfall.

In the sport of football, the league shall use the following tie-breaking formula to determine the automatic qualifier.  Prior to using the formula to determine the automatic qualifier, co-champions would be declared.

    1.    Head-to-head results.
    2.    Comparison of records between tied institutions beginning with the lowest conference finisher and continuing through the highest conference finisher.  If more than two teams are tied, at the point one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    3.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record of .500 or above.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    4.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record below .500.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    5.    Coin flip.

Thanks, Frank.

But this is actually an interesting wrinkle. I'd wondered what would happen if you had a team at 1-1 and a team at 2-2.

I would guess it goes to criteria #4.  Although that really isn't fair as the team who beats and plays more teams with records over .500 should get the nod.  On the other hand, the team that goes 1-1 may have played better .500+ teams as well.

Interesting all around.

[UfanBill]

OK ...I have a scenario where the Liberty League could end in a FIVE WAY TIE with Ithaca, Hobart, St. Lawrence, RPI and Union ALL ending up with a 3-2 league record. To make it work the other team, sorry Rochester, would go 0-5. Here's how it would happen. Keep in mind Ithaca already has wins over ST.Lawrence and Hobart.       
...10/7......St. Lawrence over Union, Ithaca over Rochester, Hobart beats RPI
...10/14....Union over Rochester, RPI over Ithaca
...10/21... Hobart beats Union, St. Lawrence over Rochester
...10/28...RPI over St.Lawrence
...11/4....St. Lawrence beats Hobart, RPI over Rochester, Union beats Ithaca   
...11/11...Hobart over Rochester, Union over RPI

Granted that's a lot that has to happen but in looking at the results does anything look THAT inconceivable? Now in the case of a five way tie, the criteria would presumably revert to the OOC record versus .500 or better teams . Liberty League teams may well be scoreboard watching praying that a team they already beat gets to . 500 or above. Union, for example may need a Coast Guard win over Merchant Marine week 10 to boost their vs .500 record. After fighting through the LL schedule Ithaca may have to beat Cortland or St. Lawrence beat Brockport to solidify their +.500 record. A week 10 game between Utica and Morrisville may prove critical to Ithaca and Union. Hobart's hopes may be determined by whether Hartwick can beat Alfred. Now THAT would be interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Bartman]

UFan.....nice analysis........we will have to add a new column in the LL standings....winning PCT against  over .500 teams.....I am betting this will be a factor at the end of the season.....Good luck to all

[Jonny Utah]

We haven't seen the 3-way tie scenario since around 2008, but Frank researched it and I do think the point differential factors in about 3-4 steps down the waterfall.

In the sport of football, the league shall use the following tie-breaking formula to determine the automatic qualifier.  Prior to using the formula to determine the automatic qualifier, co-champions would be declared.

    1.    Head-to-head results.
    2.    Comparison of records between tied institutions beginning with the lowest conference finisher and continuing through the highest conference finisher.  If more than two teams are tied, at the point one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    3.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record of .500 or above.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    4.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record below .500.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    5.    Coin flip.

So I'm reading through this again.  What exactly does #2 mean?  Who is the "lowest conference finisher?"  Does that mean if there is a 3 way tie, and one of the teams that has tied lost to a team that went 1-5, that team is eliminated? 

[Bombers798891]

We haven't seen the 3-way tie scenario since around 2008, but Frank researched it and I do think the point differential factors in about 3-4 steps down the waterfall.

In the sport of football, the league shall use the following tie-breaking formula to determine the automatic qualifier.  Prior to using the formula to determine the automatic qualifier, co-champions would be declared.

    1.    Head-to-head results.
    2.    Comparison of records between tied institutions beginning with the lowest conference finisher and continuing through the highest conference finisher.  If more than two teams are tied, at the point one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    3.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record of .500 or above.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    4.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record below .500.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    5.    Coin flip.

So I'm reading through this again.  What exactly does #2 mean?  Who is the "lowest conference finisher?"  Does that mean if there is a 3 way tie, and one of the teams that has tied lost to a team that went 1-5, that team is eliminated?

It means that when we compare teams' record against conference opponents, you start with the last place team, and move up. Doesn't help in a three-way tie, because they either all lost to each other (meaning there is no difference when you go through the results), or one team beat the other two and wins via the H2H.

[Jonny Utah]

We haven't seen the 3-way tie scenario since around 2008, but Frank researched it and I do think the point differential factors in about 3-4 steps down the waterfall.

In the sport of football, the league shall use the following tie-breaking formula to determine the automatic qualifier.  Prior to using the formula to determine the automatic qualifier, co-champions would be declared.

    1.    Head-to-head results.
    2.    Comparison of records between tied institutions beginning with the lowest conference finisher and continuing through the highest conference finisher.  If more than two teams are tied, at the point one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    3.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record of .500 or above.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    4.    Comparison of final winning percentage against all opponents with a record below .500.  At the point when one team has been eliminated, revert back to step 1 (head-to-head results).
    5.    Coin flip.

So I'm reading through this again.  What exactly does #2 mean?  Who is the "lowest conference finisher?"  Does that mean if there is a 3 way tie, and one of the teams that has tied lost to a team that went 1-5, that team is eliminated?

It means that when we compare teams' record against conference opponents, you start with the last place team, and move up. Doesn't help in a three-way tie, because they either all lost to each other (meaning there is no difference when you go through the results), or one team beat the other two and wins via the H2H.

I guess I'm trying to figure out a situation where that would come into play?

[Bombers798891]

I guess I'm trying to figure out a situation where that would come into play?

A three-way tie where the top three teams beat each other, and then lost to someone else. I just assume that's super unlikely with just six teams. In fact, my previous post answer is wrong, so disregard it.

[Jonny Utah]

I guess I'm trying to figure out a situation where that would come into play?

A three-way tie where the top three teams beat each other, and then lost to someone else. I just assume that's super unlikely with just six teams. In fact, my previous post answer is wrong, so disregard it.

I'm not a math guy, but you can't have three teams with a 4-2 record correct with one of the other teams not being different.  (meaning if you have three 4-2 teams you also have three 2-4 teams, meaning there is no "lowest conference" finisher). 

Now everyone can go 3-3, but that means option 2 can't apply either.

Now if you have three teams finish 5-1, you also have three teams that have to finish 1-5 correct?  This would also eliminate #2 as an option.

I'm guessing either my math is messed up, or rule #2 in this tie breaker can't apply to a 6 team league.

[Pat Coleman]

If you have six teams in your conference, you have five conference games, so nobody can go 4-2.

[ITH radio]

Pat beat me to it. Only 5 LL games this season, so the tiebreaker scenario would be with teams having 4-1 conf records.

[Bombers798891]

Pat beat me to it. Only 5 LL games this season, so the tiebreaker scenario would be with teams having 4-1 conf records.

Or 3-2.

[Jonny Utah]

If you have six teams in your conference, you have five conference games, so nobody can go 4-2.

Ah yes, so for three way tie purposes, you need to replace all those numbers with:

three teams going 4-1 which means three teams have to go 1-4 correct?

three teams going 3-2 which means three teams have to go 2-3....

I'm still stuck.