FB: Liberty League

[UfanBill]

I have been watching Hobart's Lax team competing in the NEC championships, and I developed some questions.  I believe Hobart received some sort of official permission to be D3 in everything, and D1 in Lax.  Aside from JHU, are there any other schools with similar setups?  I believe there are certain requirements to be a D1 football school (seating capacity I think?), but what if a school does not sponsor football?  Are there any requirements?  For instance, High Point University has a Lax team, no football team, what criteria did they have to meet to be a D1 school?   125 days to kickoff.......

I'm not sure how you weren't aware of this but Liberty League members RPI, Union, St. Lawrence, Clarkson(no football) and RIT(no football) have D1 hockey teams.  Union won the D1 hockey national championship in 2014! Johns Hopkins is like Hobart with a D1 Lacrosse program. A D3 school can have one D1 sport. (usually both men's and woman's)

[Caz Bombers]

I have been watching Hobart's Lax team competing in the NEC championships, and I developed some questions.  I believe Hobart received some sort of official permission to be D3 in everything, and D1 in Lax.  Aside from JHU, are there any other schools with similar setups?  I believe there are certain requirements to be a D1 football school (seating capacity I think?), but what if a school does not sponsor football?  Are there any requirements?  For instance, High Point University has a Lax team, no football team, what criteria did they have to meet to be a D1 school?   125 days to kickoff.......

I'm not sure how you weren't aware of this but Liberty League members RPI, Union, St. Lawrence, Clarkson(no football) and RIT(no football) have D1 hockey teams.  Union won the D1 hockey national championship in 2014! Johns Hopkins is like Hobart with a D1 Lacrosse program. A D3 school can have one D1 sport. (usually both men's and woman's)

well, you folks can because you're grandfathered in. The NCAA closed that door to the rest of us.

[Oline89]

I have been watching Hobart's Lax team competing in the NEC championships, and I developed some questions.  I believe Hobart received some sort of official permission to be D3 in everything, and D1 in Lax.  Aside from JHU, are there any other schools with similar setups?  I believe there are certain requirements to be a D1 football school (seating capacity I think?), but what if a school does not sponsor football?  Are there any requirements?  For instance, High Point University has a Lax team, no football team, what criteria did they have to meet to be a D1 school?   125 days to kickoff.......

I'm not sure how you weren't aware of this but Liberty League members RPI, Union, St. Lawrence, Clarkson(no football) and RIT(no football) have D1 hockey teams.  Union won the D1 hockey national championship in 2014! Johns Hopkins is like Hobart with a D1 Lacrosse program. A D3 school can have one D1 sport. (usually both men's and woman's)

well, you folks can because you're grandfathered in. The NCAA closed that door to the rest of us.

I knew about hockey teams, I guess  the answer to my question is as Caz said, they are all grandfathered in.  No team can start a D1 program, without all of the sports going D1.  I visited Wofford  College in SC recently.  They have only 1800 students in the school, yet field 18 D1 sports.

[HSCTiger74]

I have been watching Hobart's Lax team competing in the NEC championships, and I developed some questions.  I believe Hobart received some sort of official permission to be D3 in everything, and D1 in Lax.  Aside from JHU, are there any other schools with similar setups?  I believe there are certain requirements to be a D1 football school (seating capacity I think?), but what if a school does not sponsor football?  Are there any requirements?  For instance, High Point University has a Lax team, no football team, what criteria did they have to meet to be a D1 school?   125 days to kickoff.......

I'm not sure how you weren't aware of this but Liberty League members RPI, Union, St. Lawrence, Clarkson(no football) and RIT(no football) have D1 hockey teams.  Union won the D1 hockey national championship in 2014! Johns Hopkins is like Hobart with a D1 Lacrosse program. A D3 school can have one D1 sport. (usually both men's and woman's)

well, you folks can because you're grandfathered in. The NCAA closed that door to the rest of us.

I knew about hockey teams, I guess  the answer to my question is as Caz said, they are all grandfathered in.  No team can start a D1 program, without all of the sports going D1.  I visited Wofford  College in SC recently.  They have only 1800 students in the school, yet field 18 D1 sports.

  I believe that if a school wishes to go D1 then all their sports compete at that level, but they are not required to field teams in all sports. If they can find a league which will accept them on that basis then they're good to go. And football is a special case as there are three levels of competition within D1 (FBS, FCS and non-scholarship). High Point, mentioned in your original post, is a full member of the D1 Big South Conference but does not field a football team, even though several other member schools do.

[Bartman]

I have been watching Hobart's Lax team competing in the NEC championships, and I developed some questions.  I believe Hobart received some sort of official permission to be D3 in everything, and D1 in Lax.  Aside from JHU, are there any other schools with similar setups?  I believe there are certain requirements to be a D1 football school (seating capacity I think?), but what if a school does not sponsor football?  Are there any requirements?  For instance, High Point University has a Lax team, no football team, what criteria did they have to meet to be a D1 school?   125 days to kickoff.......

I'm not sure how you weren't aware of this but Liberty League members RPI, Union, St. Lawrence, Clarkson(no football) and RIT(no football) have D1 hockey teams.  Union won the D1 hockey national championship in 2014! Johns Hopkins is like Hobart with a D1 Lacrosse program. A D3 school can have one D1 sport. (usually both men's and woman's)

well, you folks can because you're grandfathered in. The NCAA closed that door to the rest of us.

I knew about hockey teams, I guess  the answer to my question is as Caz said, they are all grandfathered in.  No team can start a D1 program, without all of the sports going D1.  I visited Wofford  College in SC recently.  They have only 1800 students in the school, yet field 18 D1 sports.

Davidson is another southern school with 1800 in enrollment but they play in the Atlantic 10, except for football where they play in the Pioneer League, an FCS no scholarship Football only league. Wofford and Davidson focus quite a bit on basketball as this yields $$ on the D1 level , especially if you make the tournament like Wofford did this year.  I think every Davidson male student must be on a sports team.

[ITH radio]

Stetson is the same here in FL. It's a little bit larger (4,300), but it's also in the FCS Pioneer League. Going to try and see them play WNE when the Bears come down here in Sept.

[Oline89]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

[The Mole]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

Totally agree with you. Most D2 awards are "partials" and not necessarily better overall than D3. Many D2 schools tend to be public state schools with lower price tags, that is where the financial "advantage" probably exists. UST is probably a pretty good fit, football wise with the Pioneer League--mentioned below. An FCS non-scholarship league with many mid size schools (Dayton, Butler, Valpo, Marist, Davidson, Morehead State, San Diego). Issue will obviously be with all other sports. WIAC? Its a very interesting discussion. No easy answer and it appears that it will not end well.

[Jonny Utah]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

Totally agree with you. Most D2 awards are "partials" and not necessarily better overall than D3. Many D2 schools tend to be public state schools with lower price tags, that is where the financial "advantage" probably exists. UST is probably a pretty good fit, football wise with the Pioneer League--mentioned below. An FCS non-scholarship league with many mid size schools (Dayton, Butler, Valpo, Marist, Davidson, Morehead State, San Diego). Issue will obviously be with all other sports. WIAC? Its a very interesting discussion. No easy answer and it appears that it will not end well.

Well whatever happens, it looks like Caruso has the ability to build a national championship type program and I always wondered what his long term plan was.  I thought he was on the path to keep moving up, but he has stayed at d3 St. Thomas for a while now.  Not sure how many jobs he has applied for, and I don't know what his personal situation is like (maybe he just likes that area of the country now and he is happy raising his family at STU).  Maybe he knew the program was looking to move up and he wanted to be a part of it too.

[Oline89]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

Totally agree with you. Most D2 awards are "partials" and not necessarily better overall than D3. Many D2 schools tend to be public state schools with lower price tags, that is where the financial "advantage" probably exists. UST is probably a pretty good fit, football wise with the Pioneer League--mentioned below. An FCS non-scholarship league with many mid size schools (Dayton, Butler, Valpo, Marist, Davidson, Morehead State, San Diego). Issue will obviously be with all other sports. WIAC? Its a very interesting discussion. No easy answer and it appears that it will not end well.

It does seem that UST is an institution with a trajectory towards the FCS world, bigger/expanding campus, dedication towards athletics, nationally known AD/coaches, healthy bank account.  I understand that the first step to FCS is a stopover in DII, this rule is strange to me.   As you stated, most DII schools (at least out here in PA) are state schools, that have no aspirations of moving to DI.  The Pioneer League does look like a nice fit.

[jmcozenlaw]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

Totally agree with you. Most D2 awards are "partials" and not necessarily better overall than D3. Many D2 schools tend to be public state schools with lower price tags, that is where the financial "advantage" probably exists. UST is probably a pretty good fit, football wise with the Pioneer League--mentioned below. An FCS non-scholarship league with many mid size schools (Dayton, Butler, Valpo, Marist, Davidson, Morehead State, San Diego). Issue will obviously be with all other sports. WIAC? Its a very interesting discussion. No easy answer and it appears that it will not end well.

It does seem that UST is an institution with a trajectory towards the FCS world, bigger/expanding campus, dedication towards athletics, nationally known AD/coaches, healthy bank account.  I understand that the first step to FCS is a stopover in DII, this rule is strange to me.   As you stated, most DII schools (at least out here in PA) are state schools, that have no aspirations of moving to DI.  The Pioneer League does look like a nice fit.

The PSAC (PA state schools) certainly doesn't have any aspirations of moving up whatsoever. You are right. What is nuts is the massive disparity between the schools in terms of what they can give in terms of full, not-quite-full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4 scholarships. I know several football coaches very well (one was a DIII coach at DelVal before moving up), as well as a few hoops coaches.

Without naming the school in the East (of the PSAC), they have "X" to work with in terms of football scholarships (what they all call it, admin calls them 'units'). One RB at this school (currently at rookie camp with the Redskins) paid nadda to attend the school. Some of the other best players paid nadda or close to nadda.

Many of the teams in the West (of the PSAC) work with 2X or even 3X..........compared to this school and most of the other schools in the East. I will name IUP as one. Given their success at fundraising, they were up to 47 FULL scholarships. You can slice and dice this money any way that you'd like as a coach. It also allows for more out-of-state recruiting, given that the 47 doesn't care about the difference between in-state and out-of-state (more expensive tuition). This makes it very tough, in many years, for the East to compete with the IUP's, CalU's and Slippery Rock's.

Most people think because they are state schools, in the same state and in the same conference, that the playing field is completely level. In the PSAC..................nothing could be further from the truth. Raising money for some of these coaches is every bit as important as recruiting and coaching...............as more money will lead to more aid.......to lead to better recruits. What a world we live in.

[The Mole]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

Totally agree with you. Most D2 awards are "partials" and not necessarily better overall than D3. Many D2 schools tend to be public state schools with lower price tags, that is where the financial "advantage" probably exists. UST is probably a pretty good fit, football wise with the Pioneer League--mentioned below. An FCS non-scholarship league with many mid size schools (Dayton, Butler, Valpo, Marist, Davidson, Morehead State, San Diego). Issue will obviously be with all other sports. WIAC? Its a very interesting discussion. No easy answer and it appears that it will not end well.

It does seem that UST is an institution with a trajectory towards the FCS world, bigger/expanding campus, dedication towards athletics, nationally known AD/coaches, healthy bank account.  I understand that the first step to FCS is a stopover in DII, this rule is strange to me.   As you stated, most DII schools (at least out here in PA) are state schools, that have no aspirations of moving to DI.  The Pioneer League does look like a nice fit.

The PSAC (PA state schools) certainly doesn't have any aspirations of moving up whatsoever. You are right. What is nuts is the massive disparity between the schools in terms of what they can give in terms of full, not-quite-full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4 scholarships. I know several football coaches very well (one was a DIII coach at DelVal before moving up), as well as a few hoops coaches.

Without naming the school in the East (of the PSAC), they have "X" to work with in terms of football scholarships (what they all call it, admin calls them 'units'). One RB at this school (currently at rookie camp with the Redskins) paid nadda to attend the school. Some of the other best players paid nadda or close to nadda.

Many of the teams in the West (of the PSAC) work with 2X or even 3X..........compared to this school and most of the other schools in the East. I will name IUP as one. Given their success at fundraising, they were up to 47 FULL scholarships. You can slice and dice this money any way that you'd like as a coach. It also allows for more out-of-state recruiting, given that the 47 doesn't care about the difference between in-state and out-of-state (more expensive tuition). This makes it very tough, in many years, for the East to compete with the IUP's, CalU's and Slippery Rock's.

Most people think because they are state schools, in the same state and in the same conference, that the playing field is completely level. In the PSAC..................nothing could be further from the truth. Raising money for some of these coaches is every bit as important as recruiting and coaching...............as more money will lead to more aid.......to lead to better recruits. What a world we live in.

You nailed it. I live in PSAC world as well. An East team that wears purple and gold and made a deep playoff run last year did so with I think NINE "units". That is insane how they are able to compete with the West teams you mentioned. Says a lot about the recruiting and coaching going on there. The other interesting factor in the PSAC that plays into this is declining demographics--this same school has had a huge increase in enrollment while every other PSAC school declined since 2010, the exception is Slippery Rock, which was just above flat. Maybe the demand to be close to Philly in a nice college town and more affluent area means parents/students are willing to attend for not much $$ because relative to the private schools, it is still a huge bargain, many times less than 1/2 the price tag.

[jmcozenlaw]

I have been reading the MIAC boards on a daily basis, the UST dilemma is fascinating.  A topic being brought up now is the benefit of going DII is the availability of athletic scholarships.   Although I have no hard evidence to back this up, my feeling is that when financial aid packages made to DIII athletes are compared to partial scholarships made available to DII athletes, the final financial burden on the student athlete has to be comparable (if not weighed toward the DIII athlete).  According to the NCAA website, 59% of DII athletes receive "athletic" aid, while in DIII 80% receive "non-athletic" aid.  My point is that getting a partial scholarship to play DII shouldn't be considered a financial "win" to families, as compared to grants they would receive going DIII.  Thoughts?

Totally agree with you. Most D2 awards are "partials" and not necessarily better overall than D3. Many D2 schools tend to be public state schools with lower price tags, that is where the financial "advantage" probably exists. UST is probably a pretty good fit, football wise with the Pioneer League--mentioned below. An FCS non-scholarship league with many mid size schools (Dayton, Butler, Valpo, Marist, Davidson, Morehead State, San Diego). Issue will obviously be with all other sports. WIAC? Its a very interesting discussion. No easy answer and it appears that it will not end well.

It does seem that UST is an institution with a trajectory towards the FCS world, bigger/expanding campus, dedication towards athletics, nationally known AD/coaches, healthy bank account.  I understand that the first step to FCS is a stopover in DII, this rule is strange to me.   As you stated, most DII schools (at least out here in PA) are state schools, that have no aspirations of moving to DI.  The Pioneer League does look like a nice fit.

The PSAC (PA state schools) certainly doesn't have any aspirations of moving up whatsoever. You are right. What is nuts is the massive disparity between the schools in terms of what they can give in terms of full, not-quite-full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4 scholarships. I know several football coaches very well (one was a DIII coach at DelVal before moving up), as well as a few hoops coaches.

Without naming the school in the East (of the PSAC), they have "X" to work with in terms of football scholarships (what they all call it, admin calls them 'units'). One RB at this school (currently at rookie camp with the Redskins) paid nadda to attend the school. Some of the other best players paid nadda or close to nadda.

Many of the teams in the West (of the PSAC) work with 2X or even 3X..........compared to this school and most of the other schools in the East. I will name IUP as one. Given their success at fundraising, they were up to 47 FULL scholarships. You can slice and dice this money any way that you'd like as a coach. It also allows for more out-of-state recruiting, given that the 47 doesn't care about the difference between in-state and out-of-state (more expensive tuition). This makes it very tough, in many years, for the East to compete with the IUP's, CalU's and Slippery Rock's.

Most people think because they are state schools, in the same state and in the same conference, that the playing field is completely level. In the PSAC..................nothing could be further from the truth. Raising money for some of these coaches is every bit as important as recruiting and coaching...............as more money will lead to more aid.......to lead to better recruits. What a world we live in.

You nailed it. I live in PSAC world as well. An East team that wears purple and gold and made a deep playoff run last year did so with I think NINE "units". That is insane how they are able to compete with the West teams you mentioned. Says a lot about the recruiting and coaching going on there. The other interesting factor in the PSAC that plays into this is declining demographics--this same school has had a huge increase in enrollment while every other PSAC school declined since 2010, the exception is Slippery Rock, which was just above flat. Maybe the demand to be close to Philly in a nice college town and more affluent area means parents/students are willing to attend for not much $$ because relative to the private schools, it is still a huge bargain, many times less than 1/2 the price tag.

Small world!! We used to attend Eagles training camp at that purple and gold school that you speak of. It sounds like you are very aware of the major study that the state undertook a couple of years ago regarding the state schools and state related universities. I had a buddy deep on the inside and there were some pretty dire consolidation options. They've been shelved for now, but not forever. I would watch out for schools like Edinboro, Mansfield and Lock Haven as the first schools. Purple and Gold is growing for the reasons you mentioned and a few more. The Cheney situation might drag out another year or two, at most. In the East, the Andre Reed school, Bloom and ESU are solid as well. Purple and Gold did in fact have 9 "units" (the worst teams in the West had at least twice that!!!). I wasn't kidding about that 47. Wow!!!! My good buddy is the hoops coach at the school right outside Lancaster. Take a look at his roster. He raised some nice money.......and has a bunch of young studs................FROM VIRGINIA!! Division II is insane across the board..................even more so in the PSAC. I'm in Doylestown (Bucks County). My fiancee works for Johnson & Johnson in the purple and gold town and I ran the Pepsi plant there and a few others years ago. We used to tear up Gay Street. Happy Hours lasted until midnight........pre-Uber.

[Oline89]

I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

[jmcozenlaw]

I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularly QB, RB and WR (what else is left? )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)