FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

Well there was no D3 prior to 1973. So you wouldn't have had a D3 championship in the 50s or 60s anyway. Now whether there was a College Division Championship, the precursor to D2 and D3 in at least basketball starting in the mid 50s, for Ice Hockey I have no idea but I suspect not.

Kind of like football. Lots of "D3" football schools have bowl game footballs from the 20s into the 60s. You just competed. Small or not.

Yea I know football at least had "bowl" games.  We all know (or should know on this board!) that W&J played in the 1922 Rose Bowl.  My father played at Northeastern and in 1963 they played East Carolina in the "Eastern Bowl".  Northeastern at the time played mostly all New England small schools (Bates, Tufts, Rhode Island, NH, etc).  I always assumed since they went undefeated that year that they got selected for that bowl game.  A quick look through the depths of the internet show a couple random bowls with D3 teams throughout the years. 

[jknezek]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

Well there was no D3 prior to 1973. So you wouldn't have had a D3 championship in the 50s or 60s anyway. Now whether there was a College Division Championship, the precursor to D2 and D3 in at least basketball starting in the mid 50s, for Ice Hockey I have no idea but I suspect not.

Kind of like football. Lots of "D3" football schools have bowl game footballs from the 20s into the 60s. You just competed. Small or not.

Yea I know football at least had "bowl" games.  We all know (or should know on this board!) that W&J played in the 1922 Rose Bowl.  My father played at Northeastern and in 1963 they played East Carolina in the "Eastern Bowl".  Northeastern at the time played mostly all New England small schools (Bates, Tufts, Rhode Island, NH, etc).  I always assumed since they went undefeated that year that they got selected for that bowl game.  A quick look through the depths of the internet show a couple random bowls with D3 teams throughout the years.

More than a few. W&L played Wyoming in a Gator Bowl at some point in the 50s off the top of my head. I think there were one or two more bowl game footballs in the trophy case as well. I bet most of the football playing schools have a bowl game or two to their names from that 50 year period. But that's the point, there simply weren't divisions. You played who you scheduled and got invited to a Bowl or not. Didn't matter if you were Alabama or W&J in 1925. Now by the late 50s it was changing, and we saw that with the basketball divisions in the mid 50s. Certainly by the 60s the bigger bowl games were not going to small schools anymore, and by the end of the 60s even the smaller bowl games were done. And that's when we saw the D2/D3 movement kick off.

I suspect hockey, as a less national sport, probably held on to that wild west of everyone is equal and able for a heck of a lot longer, partially because it was more of a fringe sport except in a few places, but mostly because there just weren't other options on who and where to play. You had to play whoever was around, regardless of whether they were a big school or a small one.

[UfanBill]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

I was waiting for Ice Bear to respond because he's more of a hockey guy but I'll take a shot at this in reference to Union hockey d3 history and Union vs. RPI.   

Union hockey actually has a long history dating back to 1904, making it the 7th oldest college hockey program. Following a pause during WWII the team disbanded in 1949,mostly because there was no indoor rink. In 1975 the college revived hockey with a big splash, building Achilles rink and hiring infamous hockey coach Ned Harkness to lead the Dutchmen. They had immediate success going 45-8-2 in two+ seasons under Harkness playing a mostly D3 schedule until he was forced out due to "recruiting irregularities." He recruited older players, something D3 and the NESCAC that Union was then a part of, frowned upon.  My research shows D3 began playing a championship series in 1984 and Union actually played in the D3 frozen four in 1984 & 85.

Union was 1-11 Vs RPI as a D3 program winning 4-3 on 11/5/88. In 1991 the Dutchmen moved up to D1 and joined the ECAC replacing Army. After losing the first 6 they beat RPI for the first time in 1994 and now are 39-40-11 all time in D1 vs the Engineers.

[Jonny Utah]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

Well there was no D3 prior to 1973. So you wouldn't have had a D3 championship in the 50s or 60s anyway. Now whether there was a College Division Championship, the precursor to D2 and D3 in at least basketball starting in the mid 50s, for Ice Hockey I have no idea but I suspect not.

Kind of like football. Lots of "D3" football schools have bowl game footballs from the 20s into the 60s. You just competed. Small or not.

Yea I know football at least had "bowl" games.  We all know (or should know on this board!) that W&J played in the 1922 Rose Bowl.  My father played at Northeastern and in 1963 they played East Carolina in the "Eastern Bowl".  Northeastern at the time played mostly all New England small schools (Bates, Tufts, Rhode Island, NH, etc).  I always assumed since they went undefeated that year that they got selected for that bowl game.  A quick look through the depths of the internet show a couple random bowls with D3 teams throughout the years.

More than a few. W&L played Wyoming in a Gator Bowl at some point in the 50s off the top of my head. I think there were one or two more bowl game footballs in the trophy case as well. I bet most of the football playing schools have a bowl game or two to their names from that 50 year period. But that's the point, there simply weren't divisions. You played who you scheduled and got invited to a Bowl or not. Didn't matter if you were Alabama or W&J in 1925. Now by the late 50s it was changing, and we saw that with the basketball divisions in the mid 50s. Certainly by the 60s the bigger bowl games were not going to small schools anymore, and by the end of the 60s even the smaller bowl games were done. And that's when we saw the D2/D3 movement kick off.

I suspect hockey, as a less national sport, probably held on to that wild west of everyone is equal and able for a heck of a lot longer, partially because it was more of a fringe sport except in a few places, but mostly because there just weren't other options on who and where to play. You had to play whoever was around, regardless of whether they were a big school or a small one.

Ha I found out that Coast Guard lost to Western Kentucky in the 1963 Tangerine Bowl with Otto Graham as the CGA head coach.  Also looked up that 1950 Gator Bowl.  Looks like Washington and Lee was a legit d1 type team, playing Tennessee, West Virginia and Virginia in the Southern Conference.  Looks like Hardin Simmons played in the 1958 Sun Bowl, also against Wyoming.

[Jonny Utah]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

I was waiting for Ice Bear to respond because he's more of a hockey guy but I'll take a shot at this in reference to Union hockey d3 history and Union vs. RPI.   

Union hockey actually has a long history dating back to 1904, making it the 7th oldest college hockey program. Following a pause during WWII the team disbanded in 1949,mostly because there was no indoor rink. In 1975 the college revived hockey with a big splash, building Achilles rink and hiring infamous hockey coach Ned Harkness to lead the Dutchmen. They had immediate success going 45-8-2 in two+ seasons under Harkness playing a mostly D3 schedule until he was forced out due to "recruiting irregularities." He recruited older players, something D3 and the NESCAC that Union was then a part of, frowned upon.  My research shows D3 began playing a championship series in 1984 and Union actually played in the D3 frozen four in 1984 & 85.

Union was 1-11 Vs RPI as a D3 program winning 4-3 on 11/5/88. In 1991 the Dutchmen moved up to D1 and joined the ECAC replacing Army. After losing the first 6 they beat RPI for the first time in 1994 and now are 39-40-11 all time in D1 vs the Engineers.

Yea an interesting history there.  Looks like the Nescac schools (like Union) have a long history of real good sports programs that would often compete with larger schools.  Hobart also has a long history of playing some D1 lax schools while staying d3 as we know with the Cornell/Syracuse games.

[jknezek]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

Well there was no D3 prior to 1973. So you wouldn't have had a D3 championship in the 50s or 60s anyway. Now whether there was a College Division Championship, the precursor to D2 and D3 in at least basketball starting in the mid 50s, for Ice Hockey I have no idea but I suspect not.

Kind of like football. Lots of "D3" football schools have bowl game footballs from the 20s into the 60s. You just competed. Small or not.

Yea I know football at least had "bowl" games.  We all know (or should know on this board!) that W&J played in the 1922 Rose Bowl.  My father played at Northeastern and in 1963 they played East Carolina in the "Eastern Bowl".  Northeastern at the time played mostly all New England small schools (Bates, Tufts, Rhode Island, NH, etc).  I always assumed since they went undefeated that year that they got selected for that bowl game.  A quick look through the depths of the internet show a couple random bowls with D3 teams throughout the years.

More than a few. W&L played Wyoming in a Gator Bowl at some point in the 50s off the top of my head. I think there were one or two more bowl game footballs in the trophy case as well. I bet most of the football playing schools have a bowl game or two to their names from that 50 year period. But that's the point, there simply weren't divisions. You played who you scheduled and got invited to a Bowl or not. Didn't matter if you were Alabama or W&J in 1925. Now by the late 50s it was changing, and we saw that with the basketball divisions in the mid 50s. Certainly by the 60s the bigger bowl games were not going to small schools anymore, and by the end of the 60s even the smaller bowl games were done. And that's when we saw the D2/D3 movement kick off.

I suspect hockey, as a less national sport, probably held on to that wild west of everyone is equal and able for a heck of a lot longer, partially because it was more of a fringe sport except in a few places, but mostly because there just weren't other options on who and where to play. You had to play whoever was around, regardless of whether they were a big school or a small one.

Ha I found out that Coast Guard lost to Western Kentucky in the 1963 Tangerine Bowl with Otto Graham as the CGA head coach.  Also looked up that 1950 Gator Bowl.  Looks like Washington and Lee was a legit d1 type team, playing Tennessee, West Virginia and Virginia in the Southern Conference.  Looks like Hardin Simmons played in the 1958 Sun Bowl, also against Wyoming.

Yeah. The Generals tried to have a big time football program in the 50s. It all ended in a massive academic cheating scandal in the late 50s and the team was disbanded for a year or two and then never really tried to compete at that level again. Prior to the mid 2000s renovation of Wilson Field, it was one of the largest stands in D3, a leftover from that time period. Looked ridiculous since it always appeared empty.

[unionpalooza]

Random college hockey post:

So I'm looking at some random Union/RPI hockey stuff on their websites, and was surprised to see that Union only started d1 hockey in 1991 (I thought they always played at that level).  Then I dug deeper and noticed D1 and "D3" teams would often play each other in hockey going back to the 1950s and before.  But I noticed that there was only D1 championships starting in 1948 and d3 championships started in 1984.  So I was wondering what "D3" teams did back then?  Were there just no championships?  I noticed that Colby beat RPI in hockey every once in a while in the 1950s and 1960s, but they had no shot at the playoffs like RPI did?  If Colby went 22-0 or something would they have been eligible for the D1 hockey championships? I'm guessing small schools just never considered travelling across country for National small college tournaments and the costs just simply didn't make sense.

I was waiting for Ice Bear to respond because he's more of a hockey guy but I'll take a shot at this in reference to Union hockey d3 history and Union vs. RPI.   

Union hockey actually has a long history dating back to 1904, making it the 7th oldest college hockey program. Following a pause during WWII the team disbanded in 1949,mostly because there was no indoor rink. In 1975 the college revived hockey with a big splash, building Achilles rink and hiring infamous hockey coach Ned Harkness to lead the Dutchmen. They had immediate success going 45-8-2 in two+ seasons under Harkness playing a mostly D3 schedule until he was forced out due to "recruiting irregularities." He recruited older players, something D3 and the NESCAC that Union was then a part of, frowned upon.  My research shows D3 began playing a championship series in 1984 and Union actually played in the D3 frozen four in 1984 & 85.

Union was 1-11 Vs RPI as a D3 program winning 4-3 on 11/5/88. In 1991 the Dutchmen moved up to D1 and joined the ECAC replacing Army. After losing the first 6 they beat RPI for the first time in 1994 and now are 39-40-11 all time in D1 vs the Engineers.

Indeed, the whole Harkness episode was a pretty ugly moment for the college, and the key cause of the (effectively forced) resignation of its President, Tom Bonner, after a short a failed effort to transform Union into something more like a D1 university.  It also led to Union's decision to leave the NESCAC, which I think many (including me) think was a catastrophic strategic decision in the life of the college - it left behind that peer group, and now has spent decades lamenting its not in the same academic conversation as Williams, Bates, etc.

[Doid23]

Agree with Unionpalooza, while leaving NESCAC was good for football, a bad decision in all other aspects.

Union had a great DIII hockey program in the 80's, played in two DIII Frozen Fours, and used to go toe to toe with a great RPI program. I remember in 84/85 having eventual D1 National Champion RPI on the ropes, then letting up a very late 3rd period goal and eventually losing 3-2 in OT. That was the RPI team with Adam Oates, Daren Puppa, John Carter, etc. What a game.

[Jonny Utah]

Agree with Unionpalooza, while leaving NESCAC was good for football, a bad decision in all other aspects.

Union had a great DIII hockey program in the 80's, played in two DIII Frozen Fours, and used to go toe to toe with a great RPI program. I remember in 84/85 having eventual D1 National Champion RPI on the ropes, then letting up a very late 3rd period goal and eventually losing 3-2 in OT. That was the RPI team with Adam Oates, Daren Puppa, John Carter, etc. What a game.

Yup.  I've always noticed the sole 1984 National Championship banner at Babson Hockey Rink whenever I have to go there for an event.  It appears they beat Union in the national championship game that year, a few days after Union had a 5OT win over RIT in the semifinal. 

[Jonny Utah]

Been watching some local Boston area college lax over the past few weeks, and noticed that Hobart is about 5 goals or so away from being a top 10 or even top 5 team.  Are they turning the corner up there?

[Ice Bear]

Ice Bear says hello to his beloved LL brethren. Ice has heard "many a ****ing story" about the Harkness years here at the U. His teams, while playing as the  D2 level embarrassed many storied D1 programs over those two years including #1 ranked UNH team that included future NHL blueliner and Washington Capital Rod Langway. Ice also fondly recalls the glory days of Union D3 hockey in the early to mid-80's as he made most home games with Papa Ice Bear. Ice was glued to the glass on most nights glaring in awe of the likes of Gil Egan and David Appleby to name a couple. As a matter of fact Ice wore #11 through Junior College in tribute to Egan who honestly was Ice's idol growing up.

Funny Doid. Ice also recalls as clear as day the 84/85 game vs. RPI (who like you said went on to win the D1 National Championship that year) where the engineers tied the game up at 3 with 21 ****ing seconds left. Ice was 9 and cried (borderline ****ing temper tantrum) after that goal was scored. Of course RPI won in in OT...****ing pricks they were (can you see where Ice's old hatred of RPI stemmed?). That year was also magical in the Dutchmen's run to the D3 National Championship game after defeating the previous years D2 National Champ RIT on a 4 OT slap shot by Mr. Gil Egan. When asked about the shot after the game Egan replied with something along the lines of that all he wanted to do was get some sleep (see the link below for video).

Click the link to see a cool video summary of RIT's 84 season which at the end includes Egan's OT goal (which the ****ing cornhole announcer calls a "prayer." A 15 foot top corner slap shot from underneath the top of the circle is anything but a prayer...it's more of a masterpiece). Check this out:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZD7RC11WwI

Ice says that Union's D3 years were mostly quite competitive with Charlie Morrison at the helm. The Dutch were a well respected D3 team. Ice also says he was there for the 88 win over RPI, which came after a 10-0 ass kicking from RPI the night before in Troy. Here is some awesome video footage of that game as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icegrYh6knU

Ice sighs"...Ah the old smell of popcorn at Achillies Rink...nothing like it in Ice Bear's mind."

Ice thanks you all for this opportunity to express his deep nostalgia and gratitude regarding his upbringing at Achillies (and also in front of the frat house on Frank Bailey field) through the 80's.

[Jonny Utah]

Ice Bear says hello to his beloved LL brethren. Ice has heard "many a ****ing story" about the Harkness years here at the U. His teams, while playing as the  D2 level embarrassed many storied D1 programs over those two years including #1 ranked UNH team that included future NHL blueliner and Washington Capital Rod Langway. Ice also fondly recalls the glory days of Union D3 hockey in the early to mid-80's as he made most home games with Papa Ice Bear. Ice was glued to the glass on most nights glaring in awe of the likes of Gil Egan and David Appleby to name a couple. As a matter of fact Ice wore #11 through Junior College in tribute to Egan who honestly was Ice's idol growing up.

Funny Doid. Ice also recalls as clear as day the 84/85 game vs. RPI (who like you said went on to win the D1 National Championship that year) where the engineers tied the game up at 3 with 21 ****ing seconds left. Ice was 9 and cried (borderline ****ing temper tantrum) after that goal was scored. Of course RPI won in in OT...****ing pricks they were (can you see where Ice's old hatred of RPI stemmed?). That year was also magical in the Dutchmen's run to the D3 National Championship game after defeating the previous years D2 National Champ RIT on a 4 OT slap shot by Mr. Gil Egan. When asked about the shot after the game Egan replied with something along the lines of that all he wanted to do was get some sleep (see the link below for video).

Click the link to see a cool video summary of RIT's 84 season which at the end includes Egan's OT goal (which the ****ing cornhole announcer calls a "prayer." A 15 foot top corner slap shot from underneath the top of the circle is anything but a prayer...it's more of a masterpiece). Check this out:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZD7RC11WwI

Ice says that Union's D3 years were mostly quite competitive with Charlie Morrison at the helm. The Dutch were a well respected D3 team. Ice also says he was there for the 88 win over RPI, which came after a 10-0 ass kicking from RPI the night before in Troy. Here is some awesome video footage of that game as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icegrYh6knU

Ice sighs"...Ah the old smell of popcorn at Achillies Rink...nothing like it in Ice Bear's mind."

Ice thanks you all for this opportunity to express his deep nostalgia and gratitude regarding his upbringing at Achillies (and also in front of the frat house on Frank Bailey field) through the 80's.

Yea it is interesting to see Union playing RPI, Merrimack and Colgate often when they were d3/d2.  Some years they would beat the d1 teams and lose to some d3 teams.  Similar to Hobart Lax in many of those years.  Hobart would play 9 of their 10 games versus d1 teams even when they were d3.  Some years they would take their licks but would still win the national championship at 7-3 or something. 

[Ralph Turner]

In 1941 to 1962, HSU played in the Border Conference, which at various times had Arizona, ASU, Northern Arizona, New Mexico, NMSU, UTEP (Texas Western), West Texas A&M and Texas Tech (until they joined the Southwest Conference about 1956).

HSU was coached by NFL HoF'er Sammy Baugh from 1955-59. HSU dropped football after 1963 and resumed football in 1990.

[UfanBill]

2022 SCHEDULES are starting to come out. UNION opens 9/3 in Meadville, Pa (near Erie) with a game against the Alleghany Gators who are playing this year in the PAC after going 3-7 in the NCAC last year. They have never met before in football but Alleghany lost twice to RPI in 2018,19. It's an interesting change from Dutchmen openers against Massachusetts schools the last few seasons. They are back in Massachusetts however, two weeks later with another meeting with Springfield on 9/17. More to come, an E8 opponent(Hartwick or Utica,others already have a set 2022 schedule) and maybe MIT? Can't wait.

[Caz Bombers]

IC is playing the exact same opponents in the same weeks as last season, reverse sites (go to Bridgewater State, then host Brockport and Alfred). Jug at Yankee Stadium.

I wonder if they might play 2024 at Citi Field, or return to MetLife. My gut feeling is Ithaca never wants to play Cortland at home again if it can be avoided.