FB: Liberty League

[MRMIKESMITH]

So what do all the LL gurus think about the recent announcement between the E8 and Landmark League for future game scheduling?  Another hurdle for teams to get 10 game schedule??
https://empire8.com/news/2022/5/12/football-empire-8-and-landmark-conferences-announce-football-non-conference-scheduling-agreement.aspx

I'm not sure about the "guru" part but I'll take a shot at this. The E8 and the LL have had a "gentleman's agreement" in place for a few years that encourages each school to play an OOC game or two against the other New York state league. I don't see that changing. The E8 because many of it's teams are in western NY has recruited heavily in Pennsylvania so they might be more inclined to play OOC games in that state while LL teams, especially those in eastern NY have recruited in New England and have historically played more OOC there. Add in that three NE schools were LL members until relatively recently. I know Union, RPI and St.Lawrence have long standing rivalries in New England that are continuing. Don't look for the LL to enter into a like agreement with any Pennsylvania conference though it's possible. All LL teams have scheduled the MAC, NJAC and PAC occasionally in the past and the new Landmark may show up. Look for those to continue. In fact this year Union plays Allegheny and Hobart has Keystone.

Yea, I've never seen any problem for upstate schools regardless of league, finding nonleague games to fill schedules.  You can fill these up to 5 years in advance so if you know what you are doing it shouldn't be an issue.

Now on the other hand, the E8/Landmark deal says the crossover will start in 2023-2024.  Let's say  Ithaca already has agreements with Brockport, SJF, Alfred and Cortland for OCC games in 2024.  Does that mean one of those teams has to tell Ithaca "no, sorry we have to back out to play Landmark conference schools?"

I also agree with the "gentlemen's agreement" thing UfanBill.  LL lets Buff State join the league and that move helps everyone in upstate out, not just the LL teams for Pool A stuff. 

I'm not going to call the E8/Landmark move odd, but I don't see why they need to do something like that.  At some point the SJF or Alfred AD is going to have to put up a flight/hotel stay in DC to play Catholic instead of a bus/day trip to Ithaca or Rochester.  I guess if it for only two games it shouldn't have too much of an impact on upstate crossover games.

Or Salisbury 

[Pat Coleman]

Oh yes, that's right -- the resumption of the Catholic-Alfred and Catholic-St. John Fisher series from the mid-1990s.

[Oline89]

So what do all the LL gurus think about the recent announcement between the E8 and Landmark League for future game scheduling?  Another hurdle for teams to get 10 game schedule??
https://empire8.com/news/2022/5/12/football-empire-8-and-landmark-conferences-announce-football-non-conference-scheduling-agreement.aspx

I'm not sure about the "guru" part but I'll take a shot at this. The E8 and the LL have had a "gentleman's agreement" in place for a few years that encourages each school to play an OOC game or two against the other New York state league. I don't see that changing. The E8 because many of it's teams are in western NY has recruited heavily in Pennsylvania so they might be more inclined to play OOC games in that state while LL teams, especially those in eastern NY have recruited in New England and have historically played more OOC there. Add in that three NE schools were LL members until relatively recently. I know Union, RPI and St.Lawrence have long standing rivalries in New England that are continuing. Don't look for the LL to enter into a like agreement with any Pennsylvania conference though it's possible. All LL teams have scheduled the MAC, NJAC and PAC occasionally in the past and the new Landmark may show up. Look for those to continue. In fact this year Union plays Allegheny and Hobart has Keystone.

Yea, I've never seen any problem for upstate schools regardless of league, finding nonleague games to fill schedules.  You can fill these up to 5 years in advance so if you know what you are doing it shouldn't be an issue.

Now on the other hand, the E8/Landmark deal says the crossover will start in 2023-2024.  Let's say  Ithaca already has agreements with Brockport, SJF, Alfred and Cortland for OCC games in 2024.  Does that mean one of those teams has to tell Ithaca "no, sorry we have to back out to play Landmark conference schools?"

I also agree with the "gentlemen's agreement" thing UfanBill.  LL lets Buff State join the league and that move helps everyone in upstate out, not just the LL teams for Pool A stuff. 

I'm not going to call the E8/Landmark move odd, but I don't see why they need to do something like that.  At some point the SJF or Alfred AD is going to have to put up a flight/hotel stay in DC to play Catholic instead of a bus/day trip to Ithaca or Rochester.  I guess if it for only two games it shouldn't have too much of an impact on upstate crossover games.

Or Salisbury 

Doing a quick glance, looks like Buff St only has 7 games scheduled? One OOC game against Cortland? I think losing the automatic games against the E8 teams will be a real problem for many LL teams going forward.  Sure, Union has a good relationship with some Mass schools, but Hobart, SLU, IC and Buff St are going to have trouble filling a 10 game schedule.

[UfanBill]

/quote]

Doing a quick glance, looks like Buff St only has 7 games scheduled? One OOC game against Cortland? I think losing the automatic games against the E8 teams will be a real problem for many LL teams going forward.  Sure, Union has a good relationship with some Mass schools, but Hobart, SLU, IC and Buff St are going to have trouble filling a 10 game schedule.

Of course Buffalo St. has a LL game against St. Lawrence and I would look for them to open against St.John Fisher. That would make 9 games. Their 10th game opponent from last year, Morrisville, will not be on the 2022 schedule.  Another thing to remember is that the E8 vs Landmark scheduling does not kick in until 2023.

[Jonny Utah]

So what do all the LL gurus think about the recent announcement between the E8 and Landmark League for future game scheduling?  Another hurdle for teams to get 10 game schedule??
https://empire8.com/news/2022/5/12/football-empire-8-and-landmark-conferences-announce-football-non-conference-scheduling-agreement.aspx

I'm not sure about the "guru" part but I'll take a shot at this. The E8 and the LL have had a "gentleman's agreement" in place for a few years that encourages each school to play an OOC game or two against the other New York state league. I don't see that changing. The E8 because many of it's teams are in western NY has recruited heavily in Pennsylvania so they might be more inclined to play OOC games in that state while LL teams, especially those in eastern NY have recruited in New England and have historically played more OOC there. Add in that three NE schools were LL members until relatively recently. I know Union, RPI and St.Lawrence have long standing rivalries in New England that are continuing. Don't look for the LL to enter into a like agreement with any Pennsylvania conference though it's possible. All LL teams have scheduled the MAC, NJAC and PAC occasionally in the past and the new Landmark may show up. Look for those to continue. In fact this year Union plays Allegheny and Hobart has Keystone.

Yea, I've never seen any problem for upstate schools regardless of league, finding nonleague games to fill schedules.  You can fill these up to 5 years in advance so if you know what you are doing it shouldn't be an issue.

Now on the other hand, the E8/Landmark deal says the crossover will start in 2023-2024.  Let's say  Ithaca already has agreements with Brockport, SJF, Alfred and Cortland for OCC games in 2024.  Does that mean one of those teams has to tell Ithaca "no, sorry we have to back out to play Landmark conference schools?"

I also agree with the "gentlemen's agreement" thing UfanBill.  LL lets Buff State join the league and that move helps everyone in upstate out, not just the LL teams for Pool A stuff. 

I'm not going to call the E8/Landmark move odd, but I don't see why they need to do something like that.  At some point the SJF or Alfred AD is going to have to put up a flight/hotel stay in DC to play Catholic instead of a bus/day trip to Ithaca or Rochester.  I guess if it for only two games it shouldn't have too much of an impact on upstate crossover games.

Or Salisbury 

Doing a quick glance, looks like Buff St only has 7 games scheduled? One OOC game against Cortland? I think losing the automatic games against the E8 teams will be a real problem for many LL teams going forward.  Sure, Union has a good relationship with some Mass schools, but Hobart, SLU, IC and Buff St are going to have trouble filling a 10 game schedule.

I don't think they will have trouble.  The E8 schools will still need to fill two more non league games and will most likely be looking at LL schools.  Hobart has always played a bunch of random schools from the CC/PAC and other New England Schools.  Ithaca also has never had an issue finding non league teams to play. 

[Oline89]

What are the chances Hilbert (in Buffalo) is invited to join LL, makes sense from a regional standpoint>>>>

[Caz Bombers]

What are the chances Hilbert (in Buffalo) is invited to join LL, makes sense from a regional standpoint>>>>

Lol no

E8 maybe in a decade if the school is still open, which it probably won't be.

[UfanBill]

What are the chances Hilbert (in Buffalo) is invited to join LL, makes sense from a regional standpoint>>>>

The Liberty League? IMO unlikely. Looking at Hilbert's inaugural football schedule they have 4 games with the Ohio based North Coast Athletic Conference so it seems their focus may well be in that direction.

[sigma one]

In their first season Hilbert was obviously looking for games close to home.  They already had games way out on the West Coast.  When Allegheny pulled out of the NCAC (in January?)  for the PAC, NCAC schools were left with a nine-game schedule.  They were searching for games, and Hilbert was relatively close by.  I think there is no chance that the NCAC would ever consider Hilbert as a conference member.  One of the unifying hallmarks of the NCAC is that all the schools have Phi Beta Kappa chapters.  Way back, more than 20 years ago now, when Wabash joined the league, this was a huge factor in their consideration.  Same thing when DePauw was added about a decade ago. 
     One interesting note: while the four of the Ohio schools picked up Hilbert, Wabash got North Central(!)

[stlawus]

SLU schedule up.   Endicott, Norwich, Morrisville St and Castleton on the non-con docket.    Looks like Endicott has replaced Utica as the opener in recent seasons.  I liked the Utica matchup but given Endicott's recent success I'm perfectly fine with the Gulls on the schedule.   

[UfanBill]

Is the Liberty League in trouble? I read with interest and commented on a post by NED3Guy on the Region 1 board entitled, Northeast D3 Shuffle. He focuses not only on the ECFC and their impending loss of 2 teams but shuffles throughout New England and New York. What I commented needs to be repeated on the LL board. It's strictly conjecture and my opinion.

"There will surely be plenty of movement in the coming years. With the departure of Utica the E8 needs a team. The most likely would be Alfred St. or possibly Buffalo St. returning, or both . That would leave the LL lacking so Hilbert is a possibility but I've always thought Hartwick belongs in the LL.  That's been rehashed before and probably won't happen. The E8 has the pressing need for a team for 2023 but it's the LL that is more vulnerable.

If the ECFC dissolves Castleton St. would need a home. Might that be the LL? Geographically that would work...or would the LL have to look to elsewhere in New England. Springfield, once a LL member, or neighboring Western New England? Western Connecticut? WPI?  What's really needed is for a current LL school to start a football program. Clarkson had a team decades ago and currently has a club football team. It would be a natural rival for St. Lawrence as they are in all other sports. Skidmore has ever expanding successful sports programs. Could they add football? Vassar or Bard are LL members so? The answer may be the long discussed merger of the LL and the E8. That seems more and more likely."

Anybody have any thoughts?

[stlawus]

It would make a lot of sense for Norwich to join, especially since they play SLU every year now for the Hoffman Cup.     Since Norwich is in the NEWMAC now, peeling them off could possibly create a scenario where Springfield and/or WPI jumps back to the LL but I'm sure they're quite content to be in the NEWMAC for all their sports now. 


I'm sure Vassar has the funds to start football, but they do not seem like a college that is interested in creating a football program.   

Skidmore would make sense, especially since they wouldn't have to travel far for several league games, but again, it's hard to envision many schools starting up football when the 2025 cliff is looming.

The most ideal scenario would be a few SUNY schools starting up football so the SUNYAC would have its own conference which could lead to the Liberty League absorbing some or all of the E8.

[Caz Bombers]

since the AQ minimum is only 6 now, barring something unforeseen in terms of the way D3 football conducts its business, I fail to see where the E8 has to do anything if Utica leaves. Schedule another non conference game and keep rolling.

Also the stuff about the non-football LL schools adding football is laughable. Tell me you know nothing about Vassar and Bard without telling me you know nothing, et cetera.

[UfanBill]

since the AQ minimum is only 6 now, barring something unforeseen in terms of the way D3 football conducts its business, I fail to see where the E8 has to do anything if Utica leaves. Schedule another non conference game and keep rolling.

Also the stuff about the non-football LL schools adding football is laughable. Tell me you know nothing about Vassar and Bard without telling me you know nothing, et cetera.

OK I admit that I had a senior moment on that one. You're right. In a vote taken back in January the NCAA lowered the requirement for a conference to have an automatic qualifier to the NCAA tournament from 7 teams to six. Pat Coleman posted it and now I remember I read it....https://d3sports.com/notables/2022/01/d3-reduces-aq-requirements.  Sorry...Can you give yourself -k? 

[Oline89]

Even if the AQ qualifier is 6, the schools still need to arrange 10 games.  Scheduling 5 OOC games would be a nightmare for coaches and AD's.  Keeping the league with 7 active members has to be a priority.