FB: Liberty League

[Bartman]

My point is just about seeing the same discourse from the same person in multiple places. I get it. It's well known to me that you don't like it. And you spend a good number of words just to bash the poll and not evaluating Hobart-Ithaca.

I don't like it either, by the way.

Also, it is not just coaches. There are SIDs who have HSU ahead of Endicott, and probably even a media member or two.

HSU dropping 13 spots is already a LOT, even for a team with a bad loss.

In the offseason I evaluate all of the voters, and I typically change about five. During the season it doesn't change unless someone doesn't file their ballots.

Hey Pat and IC 7,
       I'm getting a wee headache , but hey it's all in fun, right? Right?RIGHT? Now I really want Hobart to win to keep this debate going next week

[UfanBill]

MAYBE THIS is what you want

I've certainly had my issues with the D3Football Top 25 over the years. Mostly in exactly what's being discussed here...teams retaining rankings points based on reputation and past performance, not current on the field results. Speaking of getting poll recognition for on the field results look at this week's Massey Ratings https://masseyratings.com/cf2023/ncaa-d3/ratings The 7 Liberty League teams all gained in  week 4 after the LL went 5/5 on the field. Ithaca gained 8 spots without even playing, Union +11, RPI +6, Hobart +2, Rochester +23, St. Lawrence +19 and even idle Buff. St. +7   Interestingly Hardin Simmons dropped 14 spots in the Massey to #21. Behind # 17 Ithaca and just ahead of # 24 Union. Endicott jumped 24 to #37 behind #36 RPI. Hobart is #41. The Liberty League is well respected in the Massey...BTW the Massey also ranks NESCAC teams extremely high. For example Trinity,Ct is #4. Yes Pat I know it's different criteria...opinion vs. fact  

It will be interesting to see where D3 guru Greg Thomas ranks the Liberty League in his yearly conference rankings after the LL went 19-5 OOC. Got to go back up in front of the E8 right?

[Pat Coleman]

The fact that Massey attempts to slot the NESCAC teams into the ranking is not a positive.

[Machiavelli]

No matter how anyone wants to cut it or massage it, at this point in the 2023 season, no matter where these teams rank in #, Ithaca should be ahead of Endicott, even by a single point, and Hardin-Simmons should be below Endicott by 5 or more(5 should be the closest and that is a stretch).

There is enough on-field evidence to make these decisions. Period. Any other excuses are out of stubbornness and laziness.

There is ZERO rationale for ranking otherwise. Personally I don't care if that has Ithaca starting at 7, 17, 27, or 37. The others fall behind in the manner mentioned above.

[Bartman]

No matter how anyone wants to cut it or massage it, at this point in the 2023 season, no matter where these teams rank in #, Ithaca should be ahead of Endicott, even by a single point, and Hardin-Simmons should be below Endicott by 5 or more(5 should be the closest and that is a stretch).

There is enough on-field evidence to make these decisions. Period. Any other excuses are out of stubbornness and laziness.

There is ZERO rationale for ranking otherwise. Personally I don't care if that has Ithaca starting at 7, 17, 27, or 37. The others fall behind in the manner mentioned above.

Agree Mach. Hardin Simmons got an old fashioned ass whopping. They showed no heart to get back in the game  and deserve to be out of the Top 25 based on this season's results. That is a fact. Anyone voting for them after that fiasco should lose their right to vote.  Ithaca beat Endicott H2H in their house, so that's clear as well.

[Ice Bear]

I'm just curious. Does everyone think many voters are looking at the Endicott's win as a fluke? Are they focusing on their injuries as a reason? Thoughts?

I know we don't have a lot to pull from here in the East compared to the top tier of teams nationally. We really haven't been there in decades. However, to me, this seemed like a genuine W for Endicott over the 5th ranked team in the country. To me it seems that Hardin-Simmons seems to get punished with the big drop in the poll but Endicott isn't really getting rewarded.

This doesn't happen here in the East very often. From everything I read, from Pat's interpretation of the game on the podcast, etc. this was not only a win but a pretty convincing one. For IC and others to question the rankings, this early in the season does not seem at all unreasonable to me. I mean that's one of the perks of the poll, of these boards, of our passion. To discuss our perspectives.

While I'm almost 100% sure that no team in the East belongs in the top 5, maybe even the top 10/15? The possible early season over ranking of H-S, should not only be recognized by their fall in the poll, but the admittance that they are not superior to a team they lost to by 27 and by being placed behind them in the poll.

[Jonny Utah]

No matter how anyone wants to cut it or massage it, at this point in the 2023 season, no matter where these teams rank in #, Ithaca should be ahead of Endicott, even by a single point, and Hardin-Simmons should be below Endicott by 5 or more(5 should be the closest and that is a stretch).

There is enough on-field evidence to make these decisions. Period. Any other excuses are out of stubbornness and laziness.

There is ZERO rationale for ranking otherwise. Personally I don't care if that has Ithaca starting at 7, 17, 27, or 37. The others fall behind in the manner mentioned above.

Agree Mach. Hardin Simmons got an old fashioned ass whopping. They showed no heart to get back in the game  and deserve to be out of the Top 25 based on this season's results. That is a fact. Anyone voting for them after that fiasco should lose their right to vote.  Ithaca beat Endicott H2H in their house, so that's clear as well.

This was always my issue with "polls".  Are they who we think the best teams are?  Are they were teams "deserve" to be ranked?  That initial ranking has such a huge impact I'm not even sure being ranked below someone is bad or good this early in the season (since rankings don't impact playoff seedings in d3).  If Hardin Simmons is bounced from the poll, does that "help" Endicott?  It just means maybe Hardin Simmons isn't that well respected and if Endicott loses again, then they get bounced easier, where if Hardin Simmons stays ranked, it might help Endicott more.  I guess the simple answer is to just rank teams like standings. If team A beats team B, just rank them ahead of them.  This is the issue people have with this poll.  It isn't going to take d3football into some black hole if we rank Endicott above Hardin Simmons and below Ithaca. 

In the D1 AP poll and the D1 coaches poll, Tennessee is ranked above Florida even though the Vols lost to the Gators in week 3.  Both teams are 3-1 with Florida's loss to 10th ranked Utah in week one (at Utah 24-11).  In the preseason poll, Tennessee was #10 and #12 in each poll while Florida was unranked.  This is very similar to the d3 poll where HS is ranked high while Endicott is not ranked.  Ithaca is basically Utah, except with one loss (I would assume Utah would still be ranked if they lost to Oklahoma or NC, similar to how Ithaca is ranked after losing to JHU).  Anyway I don't see too many Gator fans complaining about this, but maybe I don't see it, or maybe they just know its still early and Florida has 4-5 more top 25 games on their schedule (and its a system where the polls do impact their playoff implications)


_{Pat C. and his panel of 25 coaches, Sports Information Directors and media members from across the country defending the poll....}

[Machiavelli]

No matter how anyone wants to cut it or massage it, at this point in the 2023 season, no matter where these teams rank in #, Ithaca should be ahead of Endicott, even by a single point, and Hardin-Simmons should be below Endicott by 5 or more(5 should be the closest and that is a stretch).

There is enough on-field evidence to make these decisions. Period. Any other excuses are out of stubbornness and laziness.

There is ZERO rationale for ranking otherwise. Personally I don't care if that has Ithaca starting at 7, 17, 27, or 37. The others fall behind in the manner mentioned above.

Agree Mach. Hardin Simmons got an old fashioned ass whopping. They showed no heart to get back in the game  and deserve to be out of the Top 25 based on this season's results. That is a fact. Anyone voting for them after that fiasco should lose their right to vote.  Ithaca beat Endicott H2H in their house, so that's clear as well.

This was always my issue with "polls".  Are they who we think the best teams are?  Are they were teams "deserve" to be ranked?  That initial ranking has such a huge impact I'm not even sure being ranked below someone is bad or good this early in the season (since rankings don't impact playoff seedings in d3).  If Hardin Simmons is bounced from the poll, does that "help" Endicott?  It just means maybe Hardin Simmons isn't that well respected and if Endicott loses again, then they get bounced easier, where if Hardin Simmons stays ranked, it might help Endicott more.  I guess the simple answer is to just rank teams like standings. If team A beats team B, just rank them ahead of them.  This is the issue people have with this poll.  It isn't going to take d3football into some black hole if we rank Endicott above Hardin Simmons and below Ithaca. 

In the D1 AP poll and the D1 coaches poll, Tennessee is ranked above Florida even though the Vols lost to the Gators in week 3.  Both teams are 3-1 with Florida's loss to 10th ranked Utah in week one (at Utah 24-11).  In the preseason poll, Tennessee was #10 and #12 in each poll while Florida was unranked.  This is very similar to the d3 poll where HS is ranked high while Endicott is not ranked.  Ithaca is basically Utah, except with one loss (I would assume Utah would still be ranked if they lost to Oklahoma or NC, similar to how Ithaca is ranked after losing to JHU).  Anyway I don't see too many Gator fans complaining about this, but maybe I don't see it, or maybe they just know its still early and Florida has 4-5 more top 25 games on their schedule (and its a system where the polls do impact their playoff implications)


_{Pat C. and his panel of 25 coaches, Sports Information Directors and media members from across the country defending the poll....}

I hear your D1 comparison, but D1 may have some sway with conference(SEC) strength carrying a lot of weight. In D3, you don't get as many of the types of games we saw last week(TX team vs. MA team) until the postseason. The rankings after last week basically just claim how superior Texas is to the Northeast in the minds of the voters, just not in this year's evidence. I don't have a problem with HSU staying in the Top 25, they probably ARE a top 25 team. But it should probably be like Ithaca 15, Endicott 16 or 17, and HSU 22 or 23. I don't think there would be any bitching there, because it makes sense. Gotta also always save space for the poll taker darlings Delaware Valley, though. Delaware Valley was absolutely throttled by Cortland, who lost to Susquehanna. They rank appropriately. DV wasn't ranked but they beat the BEAST King's last week, so automatic top 25. Once DV beats up on Alvernia and FDU the next few weeks, expect them to hop over Endicott in the rankings. Voters LOVE them some Delaware Valley.

[Bartman]

No matter how anyone wants to cut it or massage it, at this point in the 2023 season, no matter where these teams rank in #, Ithaca should be ahead of Endicott, even by a single point, and Hardin-Simmons should be below Endicott by 5 or more(5 should be the closest and that is a stretch).

There is enough on-field evidence to make these decisions. Period. Any other excuses are out of stubbornness and laziness.

There is ZERO rationale for ranking otherwise. Personally I don't care if that has Ithaca starting at 7, 17, 27, or 37. The others fall behind in the manner mentioned above.

Agree Mach. Hardin Simmons got an old fashioned ass whopping. They showed no heart to get back in the game  and deserve to be out of the Top 25 based on this season's results. That is a fact. Anyone voting for them after that fiasco should lose their right to vote.  Ithaca beat Endicott H2H in their house, so that's clear as well.

OK, this was a bit harsh since HSU beat UW-Lacrosse, So keeping them in top 25 is reasonable, but still should be ranked below Endicott and Ithaca.

[unionpalooza]

No matter how anyone wants to cut it or massage it, at this point in the 2023 season, no matter where these teams rank in #, Ithaca should be ahead of Endicott, even by a single point, and Hardin-Simmons should be below Endicott by 5 or more(5 should be the closest and that is a stretch).

There is enough on-field evidence to make these decisions. Period. Any other excuses are out of stubbornness and laziness.

There is ZERO rationale for ranking otherwise. Personally I don't care if that has Ithaca starting at 7, 17, 27, or 37. The others fall behind in the manner mentioned above.

Agree Mach. Hardin Simmons got an old fashioned ass whopping. They showed no heart to get back in the game  and deserve to be out of the Top 25 based on this season's results. That is a fact. Anyone voting for them after that fiasco should lose their right to vote.  Ithaca beat Endicott H2H in their house, so that's clear as well.

OK, this was a bit harsh since HSU beat UW-Lacrosse, So keeping them in top 25 is reasonable, but still should be ranked below Endicott and Ithaca.

.

Yeah, but another way to reconcile that information is to wonder if maybe UW-L is just not that good; unless you think a lot of beating two truly terrible NAIA and D2 teams, they've also got nothing but last year's fumes keeping them in the poll.   But in a week when the team that beat them a few ago got blown out by Endicott, they stay unchanged at #13, ahead of Ithaca, HSU and Endicott.  That is just really really dumb.

Finally, can we also chuckle about how it's HSU that's getting poll love based on geography and reputation alone?  We're talking about a program that hasn't won a NCAA playoff game in over two decades. But .... TEXAS!

[Pat Coleman]

I'm just curious. Does everyone think many voters are looking at the Endicott's win as a fluke? Are they focusing on their injuries as a reason? Thoughts?

I don't know as I have not queried them. I know that from my watching of the game, HSU and Endicott were evenly matched during the time where everyone who suited up for the game was available. Which is not what No. 5 vs. A Team On Two Ballots should look like. Obviously, HSU also had one other all-region player who did not make the trip because of appendicitis, but I don't see Matt Mitchell making the game into what it was supposed to be on paper.

Yeah, but another way to reconcile that information is to wonder if maybe UW-L is just not that good.

This is very possible, and we'll find out more in the next few weeks.

Finally, can we also chuckle about how it's HSU that's getting poll love based on geography and reputation alone?  We're talking about a program that hasn't won a NCAA playoff game in over two decades. But .... TEXAS!

They haven't won a playoff game, but it's not like a bunch of teams have beaten UMHB in the playoffs, either. HSU rarely gets to play anyone else in the playoffs because of the 500-mile rule.

[UfanBill]

it's TEXAS

The American Southwest Conference, ASC, has been thoroughly dominated by Mary Hardin Baylor and Hardin Simmons for decades. Could that be changing this year? MHBU and HSU have shown vulnerability and the team poised to take advantage is Howard Payne. The 3-0 Yellow Jackets meet HSU this Saturday with the opportunity to take control of the ASC, and get their own spot in the poll. If Payne beats reeling Hardin Simmons their road to 9-0 heading into their week #11 showdown hosting MHBU is pretty clear. If HSU wins it's same old, same old in the ASC. Right now Howard Payne has 7 points in the Top 25 poll. Beat HSU and they'll likely jump into the Top 25 and will climb every week. 

Don't get Stung

Last week the Liberty League went 5-0 with only Rochester's OT victory over UNE being close. I picked UNE to win that game and I just missed. I also predicted preseason that Rochester would be possibly 5-0 going into their week #6 game against Union. Well we know the YellowJackets lost a squeaker to Utica in their opener but if they get past Buffalo State this week they'll be 4-1. Quite a job being done by coach Chad Martinovich's squad. The LL Big Four needs to beware of the swarm.   

[Bartman]

Let me get WEEK #5 picks out of the way, only 3 games;

THE SENECAS      27     THE CAYUGAS        24.   This could be wishful thinking, but I just have a feeling this is the year

LIGHT SOCKETS   35.   NORTHLANDERS. 10.      Larries unsuccessful at causing a black out

YELLOWJACKETS. 32.   BUFFMEN.            13.      The Yellowjackets go 4-1 heading into Poppe's Chargers next week     


UPDATED PICS:

Participant                  Wins per week.                        Total.      Percentage

ICAlum(the instigator).      5/6/5/-                            16/19*.           .842
UnionPalooza.                   7/5/- /4                           16/18.             .888
Bartman.                          6/7/5/5                            23/25.             .920
Ice Bear.                          6/6/4/5.                            21/25.             .840
Jersey 42.                        6/-/-/5                              11/12.             .916
Machiavelli                       -/5/6/5.                             16/18.             .889
Oline.                              -/4/-/-                               4/7.                 .571
IC798891.                       -/-/5./-                               5/6.               . 833
UFAN.                              -/-/-/4                                4/5.               .800

* no selection for the first  Friday night  game was made

MOST CORRECT PICKS YTD(Bartman,IB); Highest Percentage YTD(Bartman, J42)( Requires minimum of 5 weeks)

[Ice Bear]

Let me get WEEK #5 picks out of the way, only 3 games;

THE SENECAS      27     THE CAYUGAS        24.   This could be wishful thinking, but I just have a feeling this is the year

LIGHT SOCKETS   35.   NORTHLANDERS. 10.      Larries unsuccessful at causing a black out

YELLOWJACKETS. 32.   BUFFMEN.            13.      The Yellowjackets go 4-1 heading into Poppe's Chargers next week     


UPDATED PICS:

Participant                  Wins per week.                        Total.      Percentage

ICAlum(the instigator).      5/6/5/-                            16/19*.           .842
UnionPalooza.                   7/5/- /4                           16/18.             .888
Bartman.                          6/7/5/5                            23/25.             .920
Ice Bear.                          6/6/4/5.                            21/25.             .840
Jersey 42.                        6/-/-/5                              11/12.             .916
Machiavelli                       -/5/6/5.                             16/18.             .889
Oline.                              -/4/-/-                               4/7.                 .571
IC798891.                       -/-/5./-                               5/6.               . 833
UFAN.                              -/-/-/4                                4/5.               .800

* no selection for the first  Friday night  game was made

MOST CORRECT PICKS YTD(Bartman,IB); Highest Percentage YTD(Bartman, J42)( Requires minimum of 5 weeks)

I appreciate you keeping track Bartman. This certainly adds to the fun of it. +k

[tony/troy]

Just in case it happens again, does anybody remember (or care to remember) what happened the last the last time the Federal government shutdown (2013) during the college football season???

The then Liberty League Merchant Marine cadets had to all go home for three weeks and three games went poof. One (RPI) was made up later but two others (Rochester and then also Liberty League Springfield) were never made up.

However, all other military institutions cadets kept going to class and played all their games regardless of what division they played in.

As best as I recall, the reason for that was that all the others were either under the Federal Department of Defense or part of a SUNY system of which neither were affected by the shutdown. However, the Merchant Marine was under the Federal Department of Transportation and DOT was shut down.

About the only silver lining I can think of this time around is that at least our Liberty League will not have to deal with it. This time around it is somebody else's problem.