FB: Liberty League

[Bartman]

I am looking for an honest, objective answer from some of the great football minds of the LL board (looking at you Johnny U, Mach, BartM, IC 79...).  What is your opinion of the 3 man front that Hobart has trotted out for every game I have watched in the past 7 years? I will happily share my opinion after hearing from some of the more learned members of the group.

Interesting I never thought about it but it is an odd defense that you don't see often.  I mean they are a good team and their defense has had some studs and to be honest I never thought much of the scheme they run.  I'm guessing they aren't able to recruit 275+ pound studs (or don't want to) so they have 6 linebacker type players instead?  I'd have to watch them more to give a better opinion but they do run that wide 3 man front versus the spread.  Not sure what they would do vs a team that runs 21/22 personnel groups.

Its all I have ever seen.  The Hobart LBs have amazing stats year after year. They conistently lead the team in sacks and TFLs.  The defense has had great seasons overall.  I have watched thousands of NCAA and NFL games over the years, I just cant remember a team that is so dedicated to the 3-4 look.  It seems that the B gap (if that what off guard is still called) is open for 2-3 yards every play, and then with a solid block on the LB it is 6 yards...every play.  I am certainly no Defensive guru, just an avid fan, and am perplexed  with this scheme week after week.

Union and Ithaca are #8 and #40 in the county in rushing offense as of today.  Stopping those teams is not an easy task.  And Ithaca has played two top 25 teams as well. It did make me think a little how they may just do this versus spread (shotgun) teams.  Ithaca is shotgun 100% of the time.  Union appears the same.  Most NFL teams are probably 60/40 or 70/30 and d1 teams always seem to have a few more under center snaps than Union or Ithaca do.  Anyway that just made me think of why they are doing that.  If the QB is under center, Hobart is probably not running that defense. 

Edit: I mention this because the b gap is a much bigger threat from under center. Hobart has to account for every gap either way I'm just not well versed enough in how Hobart handles their run fits vs spread

These are all good points. +k

[Bartman]

This Week's LL Ranking

1.) Ithaca
2.) RPI
3.) Union
4.) Hobart
5.) Rochester
6.) SLU
7.) Buffalo State

Agree. Congrats to Ithaca for navigating the gauntlet ( no disrespect to SLU and Buffalo State). Hobart last chance for respect and an ECAC bowl is beating RPI at home in 2 weeks. If RPI beats Hobart it will set up a great Shoes(oh no, with no Dutchmen left, is it now the Electric Charger/Slideruler game ?) for a possible Pool C. Good luck to all for a strong finish.

[Caz Bombers]

This Week's LL Ranking

1.) Ithaca
2.) RPI
3.) Union
4.) Hobart
5.) Rochester
6.) SLU
7.) Buffalo State

Agree. Congrats to Ithaca for navigating the gauntlet ( no disrespect to SLU and Buffalo State). Hobart last chance for respect and an ECAC bowl is beating RPI at home in 2 weeks. If RPI beats Hobart it will set up a great Shoes(oh no, with no Dutchmen left, is it now the Electric Charger/Slideruler game ?) for a possible Pool C. Good luck to all for a strong finish.

the Extension Cord Bowl; the Golden Power Strip; c'mon people there are no bad ideas

[Bartman]

This Week's LL Ranking

1.) Ithaca
2.) RPI
3.) Union
4.) Hobart
5.) Rochester
6.) SLU
7.) Buffalo State

Agree. Congrats to Ithaca for navigating the gauntlet ( no disrespect to SLU and Buffalo State). Hobart last chance for respect and an ECAC bowl is beating RPI at home in 2 weeks. If RPI beats Hobart it will set up a great Shoes(oh no, with no Dutchmen left, is it now the Electric Charger/Slideruler game ?) for a possible Pool C. Good luck to all for a strong finish.

the Extension Cord Bowl; the Golden Power Strip; c'mon people there are no bad ideas

Yes, it's time to retire the antiquated wooden shoes trophy representing the oldest College rivalry in NYS. The leader in the series, Union has abandoned the Dutchman name , so clearly two wooden shoes is no longer a valid symbol of this storied historic football game. I have heard that RPI is refusing to let the trophy leave the Athletic Complex since they have rights to retain the trophy due to the November  2022 triumph. It was quoted by the Engineer Trophy historian "Hey, it's not our fault , they gave up the Dutchman name in favor of a Charging Cord". Union wants to continue the tradition but has proposed electrifying the trophy that will emit sparks when plugged in , thereby providing a transition from history to the future. I understand that both institutions are forming a committee to resolve the dilemma, especially because the student bodies are in favor of a change since the wooden shoes represent a colonizing Dutch history that is a stain on both colleges.

[Machiavelli]

I am looking for an honest, objective answer from some of the great football minds of the LL board (looking at you Johnny U, Mach, BartM, IC 79...).  What is your opinion of the 3 man front that Hobart has trotted out for every game I have watched in the past 7 years? I will happily share my opinion after hearing from some of the more learned members of the group.

I haven't watched a ton of Hobart so this is all based on the information provided:

I don't think the scheme really bothers me that much from a 'standard' perspective. Every coach has their own base defense, and it's usually for some reason or another. Comfortability, personnel, game approach, etc.... It doesn't sound like personnel is the concern here if it's been the same for years. The part that would concern me most is where it's mentioned that there are very little to no adjustments during games and/or week to week. It sounds like a true 'bend but don't break' mentality, but would really put a lot of stress and strain on the Linebacking crew and Defensive Backfield and that just isn't sustainable over an entire game or season. Not only do the DBs get forced to likely cover longer due to an assumed lack of pass rush, but they would also be counted on to make tackles in the run game, which opens up big play opportunities. If a team is run heavy and/or successful in the run game, you have to make adjustments to that and your team has to be comfortable making those adjustments. Seeing the same front every play gives offenses a huge advantage. It's one less call and read a QB needs to make at the line, the lineman know what they are doing each play and who they are responsible for, and it just takes that 'thinking' piece out of the equation which, again, is an advantage to the offense. 1 less thing to recognize at the line of scrimmage.

Hobart has been pretty successful over the years, so clearly it works to an extent, but maybe it's a reason they can't get get over the LL hurdle for the last nearly decade. Maybe the top of the LL has it figured out. I could see this being a little frustrating for sure.

[Machiavelli]

This Week's LL Ranking

1.) Ithaca
2.) RPI
3.) Union
4.) Hobart
5.) Rochester
6.) SLU
7.) Buffalo State

Agree. Congrats to Ithaca for navigating the gauntlet ( no disrespect to SLU and Buffalo State). Hobart last chance for respect and an ECAC bowl is beating RPI at home in 2 weeks. If RPI beats Hobart it will set up a great Shoes(oh no, with no Dutchmen left, is it now the Electric Charger/Slideruler game ?) for a possible Pool C. Good luck to all for a strong finish.

the Extension Cord Bowl; the Golden Power Strip; c'mon people there are no bad ideas

Yes, it's time to retire the antiquated wooden shoes trophy representing the oldest College rivalry in NYS. The leader in the series, Union has abandoned the Dutchman name , so clearly two wooden shoes is no longer a valid symbol of this storied historic football game. I have heard that RPI is refusing to let the trophy leave the Athletic Complex since they have rights to retain the trophy due to the November  2022 triumph. It was quoted by the Engineer Trophy historian "Hey, it's not our fault , they gave up the Dutchman name in favor of a Charging Cord". Union wants to continue the tradition but has proposed electrifying the trophy that will emit sparks when plugged in , thereby providing a transition from history to the future. I understand that both institutions are forming a committee to resolve the dilemma, especially because the student bodies are in favor of a change since the wooden shoes represent a colonizing Dutch history that is a stain on both colleges.

I think I missed most of the conversation on this name change subject at some point, but was the name change due to it being kinda lame, or was there an uprising by the hairy armpit ladies of Union feeling slighted that it was Dutch'men' as opposed to Dutch'women'/Dutch'people'/Dutch'theys', etc etc? Or maybe Dutch from Cobra Kai threatened to make them all dead meat if they didn't change it?

[Caz Bombers]

as I understand it, Union surveyed students, maybe faculty/staff too, I don't know, and asked "do you like Dutchmen/Dutchwomen or should we change it?" The response was majority "No, change it."

I don't believe there was any specific request to change prior to the survey.

[Machiavelli]

as I understand it, Union surveyed students, maybe faculty/staff too, I don't know, and asked "do you like Dutchmen/Dutchwomen or should we change it?" The response was majority "No, change it."

I don't believe there was any specific request to change prior to the survey.

Makes total sense. Change for the sense of change.

[Jonny Utah]

as I understand it, Union surveyed students, maybe faculty/staff too, I don't know, and asked "do you like Dutchmen/Dutchwomen or should we change it?" The response was majority "No, change it."

I don't believe there was any specific request to change prior to the survey.

Makes total sense. Change for the sense of change.

Very sensical.  Hopefully they ask again in 4 years to give those students a chance to change the name.  But I looked and Union has the Roman Goddess Minerva on their crest or whatever you call it.  Minerva is associated with Owls and I thought what a perfect relevant mascot....the Owl.  But no.  Let's go with Garnet Chargers.  And why not just Garnet? 

Ok rant over.  But I still think Owls would have been cool.

[Bartman]

as I understand it, Union surveyed students, maybe faculty/staff too, I don't know, and asked "do you like Dutchmen/Dutchwomen or should we change it?" The response was majority "No, change it."

I don't believe there was any specific request to change prior to the survey.

Makes total sense. Change for the sense of change.

Very sensical.  Hopefully they ask again in 4 years to give those students a chance to change the name.  But I looked and Union has the Roman Goddess Minerva on their crest or whatever you call it.  Minerva is associated with Owls and I thought what a perfect relevant mascot....the Owl.  But no.  Let's go with Garnet Chargers.  And why not just Garnet? 

Ok rant over.  But I still think Owls would have been cool.

A wise choice

[Ice Bear]

Regarding the name change, I personally can't stand it. I've also heard many of the same things that have been said. Apparently it wasn't about an issue with the nickname Dutchmen/Dutchwomen being a historical reference to colonization. It had more to do with the students who were surveyed not having any clue about the significance of the name and/or being able to identify with it...whatever that means. In the end, apparently based on data resulting from multiple surveys, "Garnet Chargers" was what everyone felt fit the best. Not sure many could even define what a Garnet Charger is. I am hoping this plays out like RPI's attempted name change to the Red Hawks which fluttered out in what seemed to be less than a calendar year.

I for one was hoping that if there had to be a change that "Garnet" would have won out. Before being referred to as the Dutchmen/Dutchwomen Union was referred to as the Garnet. I believe there was a copyright issue around using just Garnet. Oh well, we all move on and will see what ultimately comes of it.

[Machiavelli]

I still have some of my RPI Redhawk baseball gear. Though I never really considered it a name change, it always seemed more of an alternate mascot that some sports adopted more than others(Football and Hockey never really adopted it at all). If my memory serves correct, which is questionable, I believe we were told the 'Engineers' name wouldn't go away.

Moving away from the history and legacy that was the 'Dutchmen', just because some little twerp terds think it's lame or boring, is pretty bad.

[UfanBill]

I found this..."The Board of Trustees voted Monday, October 2, to change Union's name for the first time in the school's 132-year history after reviewing a year's worth of research. "We believe this name will better communicate Union's scope as we broaden our graduate offerings," said Gary Thurber, board chair.Oct 2, 2023"...Let me point out the Board meets in New York City, not Schenectady for what it's worth. The "research" consisted of 2100 individuals who answered a survey from which "over 400 submissions (of conceivable new names) by Union students, faculty, staff, and alumni. According to Union College, Garnet reflects the school's official color, and Chargers relates to Schenectady's legacy as a hub for electrical innovation and invention."  I responded to that survey and my feelings were no change was necessary. Four finalist submissions were selected Garnet Hawks, Garnet Storm, Garnet Griffins and Garnet Chargers. Chargers was chosen because of Union's location in Schenectady, the Electric City, and it's former affiliations with Schenectady based General Electric. Garnet as a stand alone nickname can not be used because it's already trademarked by Swarthmore...https://www.union.edu/news/stories/202305/nickname-finalists-announced

As of now I have yet to talk to any member of the Union football community...current players, former players, staff, alumni or long time fans...that embrace the new nickname. With it being hockey season I'll probably hear from some of those people at some point. While a few have been OK with the Garnet Chargers name, universally no one understands why a change was thought necessary. I do know that the football team asked to keep the old block U logo, not the new lightning bolt U logo, on their helmets. That wish was granted for this season. At least they kept the garnet part. The Garnet has been a long time nickname for Union teams dating way back to when Union athletics were first formed. It's a shade of red much like how Harvard is the Crimson. RPI sometimes uses it's own red, cherry, in it's description.     

[unionpalooza]

I found this..."The Board of Trustees voted Monday, October 2, to change Union's name for the first time in the school's 132-year history after reviewing a year's worth of research. "We believe this name will better communicate Union's scope as we broaden our graduate offerings," said Gary Thurber, board chair.Oct 2, 2023"...Let me point out the Board meets in New York City, not Schenectady for what it's worth. The "research" consisted of 2100 individuals who answered a survey from which "over 400 submissions (of conceivable new names) by Union students, faculty, staff, and alumni. According to Union College, Garnet reflects the school's official color, and Chargers relates to Schenectady's legacy as a hub for electrical innovation and invention."  I responded to that survey and my feelings were no change was necessary. Four finalist submissions were selected Garnet Hawks, Garnet Storm, Garnet Griffins and Garnet Chargers. Chargers was chosen because of Union's location in Schenectady, the Electric City, and it's former affiliations with Schenectady based General Electric. Garnet as a stand alone nickname can not be used because it's already trademarked by Swarthmore...https://www.union.edu/news/stories/202305/nickname-finalists-announced

As of now I have yet to talk to any member of the Union football community...current players, former players, staff, alumni or long time fans...that embrace the new nickname. With it being hockey season I'll probably hear from some of those people at some point. While a few have been OK with the Garnet Chargers name, universally no one understands why a change was thought necessary. I do know that the football team asked to keep the old block U logo, not the new lightning bolt U logo, on their helmets. That wish was granted for this season. At least they kept the garnet part. The Garnet has been a long time nickname for Union teams dating way back to when Union athletics were first formed. It's a shade of red much like how Harvard is the Crimson. RPI sometimes uses it's own red, cherry, in it's description.   

Ufan, you are reading the wrong press release - that's Union College of Nebraska who changed their name to Union University.

I hate the name change, and the new name.  The worst part of it is that they never even bothered to explain why they made the change - there is no statement anywhere that does much more than say "we thought Garnet Chargers was a better nickname."  The closest they came was this press piece when they announced they were looking for an alternative:

"It is clear that relatively few current students have an affinity for the nicknames, and they do little to connect the College to prospective students," the email from Harris and Land states. "Additionally, not having a strong nickname – and the accompanying mascot – puts the College at a distinct disadvantage from a marketing and branding standpoint."

The move by Union to choose its own nickname comes at a time when the College is in the midst of a comprehensive branding update designed to strengthen how to communicate Union's distinctiveness and the power of a Union education to prospective and current students, faculty, staff, alumni and the general public.

"As we work through a broad branding update for the College, this seemed like a good time to examine whether Dutchmen/Dutchwomen was performing the work on a nickname as a rallying point for our students," Land said. "We also currently don't have a mascot, which leaves room for us to strengthen our marketing."

I think you can read between the lines here - this is a new President and a new head of marketing who have no history or relationship to the college whatsoever and just want to put their stamp on things, because they think they're clever and they can.  The student survey was a setup; few liberal arts college students have a strong relationship to the school nickname, other than the athletes.  You could ask that question anywhere, and you'd get similar survey results.  And you'd get the same results today if you did a new survey about "Garnet Chargers."  As for process, they pulled out a classic playbook, first delegitimizing the old nickname (every press piece makes the point that the College never "chose" Dutchmen, but instead it was given to them by local reporters and stuck, and so it was never a "real" nickname), then stressing the point was to have a better mascot only to pick name that is completely un-mascotable. The whole process was patronizing to the college community (alumni, students, athletes, etc.), and it resulted in what has to be, objectively speaking, one of the worst college nicknames in D3.  I mean, if you launch a contest and hit absolute gold, like RISD's Scrotie, than sure, change it. But you cannot make the change for no reason, run a bullsh*t process, and then pick a name that's Billy Madison acadademic decathlon-level bad.

Most importantly, it baffles me that THIS is what the President and the Board are spending their time and political capital on.  It's like classic new CEO syndrome, where the guy comes in and decides he's going to launch a re-brand, rather than do hard stuff like upgrading technology, talent and making better products.   

I award them no points, and my god have mercy on their soul.

[Caz Bombers]

I have found it amusing that Union's garnet official color is really more like burgundy and Vassar's burgundy official color is really more like garnet. Garnet is FSU/South Carolina shade of dark red, Union looks more like Texas A&M maroon to me. Vassar wears a shade of red lighter than Union and they dress more like South Carolina than Union does.