FB: Liberty League

[IC798891]

I think size makes a difference at the margins.  A 5,000+ school is much more likely to offer a wider range of majors that appeal to athletes (sports management, etc.), and you can basically admit anyone without messing with your USNWR averages.  And in the era of COVID fifth years, having grad programs is a huge plus.  With that said, NCC has done alright with just 1900 students.

Yes, and no.

We recently sat through a meeting where there was a breakdown of athletes per school, and the Music, Theatre, and Dance school had, I think, 4. I suspect that's pretty standard, as I have no idea how one balances the demanding rehearsal schedules of that school with the demands of being a student athlete.

So take that ~5,000 and remove music from it, and it's more like 4,300.

[Machiavelli]

Here's a cool Wiki link to D3 Football Programs w/ Enrollment(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_III_football_programs). While I do think it's wild to see some of these #'s(like Bethany with 650 students), I don't think the size of enrollment is really any type of apples to apples comparison. Johns Hopkins, for instance has 26K students. The bottom line is some kids get recruited to play football there, and at every school, to fill the rosters. Coaches look for athletes that fit a particular mold athletically/academically/regionally/financially, etc, etc. It's not like JHU is able to get more good football players based on their enrollment. They DO however probably get pretty smart football players. Schools like Rochester(12K), MIT(11.5), and RPI(8K) don't have an 'advantage' for being larger, there's more difficulty in getting kids accepted, but maybe it's a different brand of player, and those schools have built their programs around that brand. Until this year, Rochester probably hasn't recruited very well. Schools like Rowan(19K) and Montclair(21K) SHOULD, on paper, have a distinct advantage though, and I think this used to hold true, in that they aren't terrible schools, but a lot of kids can get in and they have large recruiting areas and talent pools. What has happened to both of those programs is truly mind blowing. Something tells me they just aren't recruiting like they used to. They SHOULD be much better than they are currently. K.C. Keeler knew how to get it done way back when.

Long story short, I think each school you look at, you can make up a narrative that fits the school's size, enrollment #'s, acceptance rates, majors, and football history. With good active and aggressive recruiting and targeting the right brand of football players, I think anyone could have success if it's done properly.

[Ice Bear]

Here's a cool Wiki link to D3 Football Programs w/ Enrollment(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_III_football_programs). While I do think it's wild to see some of these #'s(like Bethany with 650 students), I don't think the size of enrollment is really any type of apples to apples comparison. Johns Hopkins, for instance has 26K students. The bottom line is some kids get recruited to play football there, and at every school, to fill the rosters. Coaches look for athletes that fit a particular mold athletically/academically/regionally/financially, etc, etc. It's not like JHU is able to get more good football players based on their enrollment. They DO however probably get pretty smart football players. Schools like Rochester(12K), MIT(11.5), and RPI(8K) don't have an 'advantage' for being larger, there's more difficulty in getting kids accepted, but maybe it's a different brand of player, and those schools have built their programs around that brand. Until this year, Rochester probably hasn't recruited very well. Schools like Rowan(19K) and Montclair(21K) SHOULD, on paper, have a distinct advantage though, and I think this used to hold true, in that they aren't terrible schools, but a lot of kids can get in and they have large recruiting areas and talent pools. What has happened to both of those programs is truly mind blowing. Something tells me they just aren't recruiting like they used to. They SHOULD be much better than they are currently. K.C. Keeler knew how to get it done way back when.

Long story short, I think each school you look at, you can make up a narrative that fits the school's size, enrollment #'s, acceptance rates, majors, and football history. With good active and aggressive recruiting and targeting the right brand of football players, I think anyone could have success if it's done properly.

Many great points being made here on the board.

Mach, this too blows my mind. To me some of this makes me think that schools like these just aren't making football a priority. I'm not saying those within the program are not engaged, but I'm guessing there may not be a lot of support/resources coming from these type of schools supporting recruitment. I wonder how hard some of these schools recruit. 

[ICAlum16]

Very late to the party here but busy weekend for ICAlum as my sister got married on Saturday in Hobartville (Geneva... beautiful place for a wedding if I might add).

I didn't get to watch much of the IC game because of ceremonies but did shell out the $6 to watch some of the first half (interesting strategy from Rochester but a discussion for the offseason). I forget who said it over the weekend but I believe they were correct about getting the new QB comfortable throwing early in the game. As a freshman that is a tough spot so he will only get more comfortable and it looks like has a strong arm so stretching the ball vertically to Deumaga hopefully becomes more of a part of the game plan. That IC defense is elite and JLO is a bonafied stud. He should be LL OPOY and I think should be a serious AA candidate.

Credit to Rochester for playing tough and that program is building. The LL continues to be the toughest league in the northeast and excited for future matchups. Hopefully the next two weeks the Bombers are able to build a lead and get the QB some confidence throwing the ball heading into Cortaca and the playoffs.

I do have a question for the Hobart fans here, what seems to be the issue with the Statesmen? Since 2014 when I lost to them in the first round of the playoffs, they seem to have really fallen off and not been able to beat the upper tier teams in the region. Is this an issue with DeWall? I am curious to hear the thoughts of the fans on the last few years of struggles getting over the hump.

I guess both Union and RPI are not upper tier teams .....we only just beat them both last year(oops edit we beat RPI 2 years ago and lost to them at RPI by 3 last year), and have a good track record with the historic LL members over the last 10 years. While we do have issues beating Ithaca at Buttercup Field,, it's comments like this that make me wish we voted in St.John Fisher or Alfred as full LL members that would have been more grateful for escaping the E8. There, I have it off my chest and feel totally fine now.
  It is true that before Coach Cragg( Cragg was a kick ass take no prisoners type) resigned as HC to head up the Athletic  department development staff and Coach DeWall(a total gentleman and Hobart grad) took over we have not won a LL title, but the record is not too shabby. We compete with a pure Liberal Arts curriculum, that I believe hurts us in recruiting these days ( Business seems to be a favorite major for male athletes, and Hobart  offers Economics) We have added an Entrepreneurship/ Management Major and Masters program, that seems to have helped the more career focused generation, instead of mine that would have studied anything to stay out of the draft and risked being killed in the jungles of Viet Nam. 
   See you next year at the Boz where we will try to snap the ball better and not give you the game

Yeah, Hobart has been just fine since 2014.  Here are the program win percentages for 2015-2022:

Hobart - .726
RPI - .725
Ithaca - .684
Union - .600* (includes Audino 0-10 nosedive season)

And here are the number of LL title/playoff bids:

RPI - 3
Hobart - 1
Ithaca - 1
SLU - 1
Union - 1

Hobart has actually been the most consistent team in the LL.  And so while it's true it's been a while they won the league, I think part of that is just a function of having four very strong teams year after year; you kind of have to wait for your "turn" to run that gauntlet better that the others any given year.

It is interesting to think about whether the LL is too "stacked" for its teams' own good, particularly in the age of so few Pool C bids. That's especially true if you look at recent trends - over the last four full seasons, the Big Four are a combined 133-42, for a combined win percentage of .760.  (This year it is likely to be .833!)  I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty confident that NO OTHER LEAGUE has four teams with a better winning percentage over that stretch.  (For comparison, the best four in the WIAC over that period - UWW, UWL, UWO and UWRF - have a .702 winning percentage.)

Geez, I didn't even mean for this to be all that confrontational, I was just speaking more anecdotally than anything and in respect to the run that Hobart had in the early 2010's. There is obviously a lot more parody in the LL now a days I just think it is interesting that the only team of the top 4 that have not won the league or made the playoffs since the LL re-alignment is Hobart. I would say that IC, Union, RPI and Hobart are all on a pretty even playing field when it comes to recruiting, all are very expensive private schools. RPI at times might have an advantage with their Engineering program, maybe some kids want more communications and go to IC or the prestigious liberal arts rankings favor Hobart and Union.

[Jonny Utah]

Here's a cool Wiki link to D3 Football Programs w/ Enrollment(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_III_football_programs). While I do think it's wild to see some of these #'s(like Bethany with 650 students), I don't think the size of enrollment is really any type of apples to apples comparison. Johns Hopkins, for instance has 26K students. The bottom line is some kids get recruited to play football there, and at every school, to fill the rosters. Coaches look for athletes that fit a particular mold athletically/academically/regionally/financially, etc, etc. It's not like JHU is able to get more good football players based on their enrollment. They DO however probably get pretty smart football players. Schools like Rochester(12K), MIT(11.5), and RPI(8K) don't have an 'advantage' for being larger, there's more difficulty in getting kids accepted, but maybe it's a different brand of player, and those schools have built their programs around that brand. Until this year, Rochester probably hasn't recruited very well. Schools like Rowan(19K) and Montclair(21K) SHOULD, on paper, have a distinct advantage though, and I think this used to hold true, in that they aren't terrible schools, but a lot of kids can get in and they have large recruiting areas and talent pools. What has happened to both of those programs is truly mind blowing. Something tells me they just aren't recruiting like they used to. They SHOULD be much better than they are currently. K.C. Keeler knew how to get it done way back when.

Long story short, I think each school you look at, you can make up a narrative that fits the school's size, enrollment #'s, acceptance rates, majors, and football history. With good active and aggressive recruiting and targeting the right brand of football players, I think anyone could have success if it's done properly.

Many great points being made here on the board.

Mach, this too blows my mind. To me some of this makes me think that schools like these just aren't making football a priority. I'm not saying those within the program are not engaged, but I'm guessing there may not be a lot of support/resources coming from these type of schools supporting recruitment. I wonder how hard some of these schools recruit.

IceBear I think a lot of that goes to what I was talking about in terms of "wealth" and football in the Northeast.  Good youth football players from the Boston area (and the City of Boston) will often get to go to private schools in the area, whether it be Catholic conference schools, ISL or NEPSAC.  These kids often start in the 7th grade at these schools and will get some of the best education in the world at these schools.  Graduates of those schools (who play football) will have basically a 100% chance of choosing any school in the LL if they want to go there.  If they are good enough the Ivy Leagues will take any graduate from those schools as well.  Your good surburban school districts also punch out a lot of well rounded student athletes who are in the academic range LL schools are looking for.   Add in a good financial aid package which I think the LL is probably even better than the NJAC or MASCAC and you will have players choosing LL schools over public schools.  Hell this was true when I was in HS.  Hobart and Ithaca gave me the exact same financial aid package, about 1/4 of what I would have paid at Umass, Uconn or UNH.   

EDIT: I don't know much about NY/NJ private school football but I am guessing it is the same, if not better than New England private football.  I know the NJ prep schools are anyway.

[unionpalooza]

Here's a cool Wiki link to D3 Football Programs w/ Enrollment(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_III_football_programs). While I do think it's wild to see some of these #'s(like Bethany with 650 students), I don't think the size of enrollment is really any type of apples to apples comparison. Johns Hopkins, for instance has 26K students. The bottom line is some kids get recruited to play football there, and at every school, to fill the rosters. Coaches look for athletes that fit a particular mold athletically/academically/regionally/financially, etc, etc. It's not like JHU is able to get more good football players based on their enrollment. They DO however probably get pretty smart football players. Schools like Rochester(12K), MIT(11.5), and RPI(8K) don't have an 'advantage' for being larger, there's more difficulty in getting kids accepted, but maybe it's a different brand of player, and those schools have built their programs around that brand. Until this year, Rochester probably hasn't recruited very well. Schools like Rowan(19K) and Montclair(21K) SHOULD, on paper, have a distinct advantage though, and I think this used to hold true, in that they aren't terrible schools, but a lot of kids can get in and they have large recruiting areas and talent pools. What has happened to both of those programs is truly mind blowing. Something tells me they just aren't recruiting like they used to. They SHOULD be much better than they are currently. K.C. Keeler knew how to get it done way back when.

Long story short, I think each school you look at, you can make up a narrative that fits the school's size, enrollment #'s, acceptance rates, majors, and football history. With good active and aggressive recruiting and targeting the right brand of football players, I think anyone could have success if it's done properly.

Many great points being made here on the board.

Mach, this too blows my mind. To me some of this makes me think that schools like these just aren't making football a priority. I'm not saying those within the program are not engaged, but I'm guessing there may not be a lot of support/resources coming from these type of schools supporting recruitment. I wonder how hard some of these schools recruit.

IceBear I think a lot of that goes to what I was talking about in terms of "wealth" and football in the Northeast.  Good youth football players from the Boston area (and the City of Boston) will often get to go to private schools in the area, whether it be Catholic conference schools, ISL or NEPSAC.  These kids often start in the 7th grade at these schools and will get some of the best education in the world at these schools.  Graduates of those schools (who play football) will have basically a 100% chance of choosing any school in the LL if they want to go there.  If they are good enough the Ivy Leagues will take any graduate from those schools as well.  Your good surburban school districts also punch out a lot of well rounded student athletes who are in the academic range LL schools are looking for.   Add in a good financial aid package which I think the LL is probably even better than the NJAC or MASCAC and you will have players choosing LL schools over public schools.  Hell this was true when I was in HS.  Hobart and Ithaca gave me the exact same financial aid package, about 1/4 of what I would have paid at Umass, Uconn or UNH.   

EDIT: I don't know much about NY/NJ private school football but I am guessing it is the same, if not better than New England private football.  I know the NJ prep schools are anyway.

All great points.  My sense is that NJ private school football is similar - indeed, a level well above the New England schools in terms of talent, but similar socioeconomic dynamics.  I think NYS is totally different - apart from a handful of good but not incredible private HS programs around the city, NYS football talent tends to come from public schools, and a pretty diverse array of types as well (wealthy suburb, small/mid-size city, rural and blue collar suburb, etc.). Interestingly, over a 30-year arc, you've seen the LL schools do less well in those areas, while the Brockport, Cortland, Utica/SJF and others have done better.

[IC798891]

Many great points being made here on the board.

Mach, this too blows my mind. To me some of this makes me think that schools like these just aren't making football a priority. I'm not saying those within the program are not engaged, but I'm guessing there may not be a lot of support/resources coming from these type of schools supporting recruitment. I wonder how hard some of these schools recruit.
[/quote]

Couple other things to remember:

All sports are zero sum games. If you're wondering how could [program X, Y, Z] drop off, well, part of the answer is somewhere in the stories of programs rising up to become better.

Success in college sports is in large part a matter of resources. Rather than looking at coaches, or athletic directors, look at changes in the President at some of these places, and how those presidents may or may not emphasize athletics and football. To wit, if a new coach is less successful, is the problem the coach, or is the problem the hiring process that resulted in that coach is different and thus less attractive?

All colleges have ebbs and flows as institutions. Maybe there's a big capital campaign going on which means a massive influx of resources, some of which finds it way to athletics. Or maybe it's something smaller, but still impactful.

In 2021, Ithaca got a gift from a BOT member to increase enrollment in the DC/VA/MD area. https://www.ithaca.edu/news/board-trustees-chair-david-h-lissy-87-makes-gift-expand-recruitment-and-marketing-resources. The football roster currently has three players from VA on it, and all are first-year players.

[UfanBill]

Timing is everything...Congratulations to the Ithaca offensive line which received national recognition week#8 in the D3football.com Team Of The Week column...It reads:

OL Colin Norton, Alex Rice, JoJo Puckey, Joe Arico, Anselmo Farrell, Ithaca

"The offensive line led the way for Ithaca as the Bombers rushed for a season-best 317 yards against Rochester on Saturday in a 24-10 win. IC possessed the ball for nearly 33 minutes and picked up 26 first downs (18 rushing). The line only allowed two tackles for loss and all three touchdowns scored by IC were on the ground "

In the highly competitive world of LL posters banter let me point out that Union against Rochester week#6 rushed for 403 yards and 25 rushing first downs. That O-line consisted of Mark McCorkle, Dan Haramis, Jake Rubin, Kevin Dewing and Kyle Webster....Just sayin'...Cortland's O-Line received the nod week#6. They rushed for 360 yards.

Also receiving Team of the Week recognition:

S Derek Slywka, Sr., Ithaca

"Slywka recorded two interceptions and blocked a field goal during Ithaca's 24-10 win at Rochester on Saturday. He also made three tackles. Both interceptions occurred in the fourth quarter, including the final play of the game as he picked off a pass at the IC 1-yard line. Slywka blocked the field goal midway through the third quarter with the score tied at 3-3."

Union has yet to receive any Team of the Week awards this season. I wonder if the Garnet SID is submitting anyone for consideration?

[Jonny Utah]

Timing is everything...Congratulations to the Ithaca offensive line which received national recognition week#8 in the D3football.com Team Of The Week column...It reads:

OL Colin Norton, Alex Rice, JoJo Puckey, Joe Arico, Anselmo Farrell, Ithaca

"The offensive line led the way for Ithaca as the Bombers rushed for a season-best 317 yards against Rochester on Saturday in a 24-10 win. IC possessed the ball for nearly 33 minutes and picked up 26 first downs (18 rushing). The line only allowed two tackles for loss and all three touchdowns scored by IC were on the ground "

In the highly competitive world of LL posters banter let me point out that Union against Rochester week#6 rushed for 403 yards and 25 rushing first downs. That O-line consisted of Mark McCorkle, Dan Haramis, Jake Rubin, Kevin Dewing and Kyle Webster....Just sayin'.

Also receiving Team of the Week recognition:

S Derek Slywka, Sr., Ithaca

"Slywka recorded two interceptions and blocked a field goal during Ithaca's 24-10 win at Rochester on Saturday. He also made three tackles. Both interceptions occurred in the fourth quarter, including the final play of the game as he picked off a pass at the IC 1-yard line. Slywka blocked the field goal midway through the third quarter with the score tied at 3-3."

Union has yet to receive any Team of the Week awards this season. I wonder if the Garnet SID is submitting anyone for consideration?

Here you go UFanBill!!!!!

LL POST PATTERNS OLINE OF THE WEEK FROM 3 WEEKS AGO.........Mark McCorkleDan HaramisJake RubinKevin DewingKyle Webster

[Jonny Utah]

Seriously we can give our own awards here folks.  My picks:

LL Coach of the week goes to Jon Poppe.  Getting his team focused and prepared for Hobart deserves some recognition. 

Punter of the week goes to Hobart's Tobias Wefering.  Kid can boot the ball and did so for almost 300 yards with two inside the 20 and two punts over 50 yards. One of his punts was for 59 yards, good for 4th in the LL this year.  Wefering's 53 yard average was top in the LL this year.  Union had zero return yards. 

Max Gluck also gets kicker of the week.  9 points for the Union kicker.

Best LL names of the week go to Rochester's Bradley Beckweth and Happy Chane, two linebackers who each had a LL week leading 12 tackles for the Yellow Jackets.  Honorable mention for top LL names of the week goes to Buffalo State's Sincere Greene, who had two sacks vs. Hilbert.

Mascot of the week goes to the Union Garnet Chargers.  Good convo this week about those goofballs.

[IC798891]

Union has yet to receive any Team of the Week awards this season. I wonder if the Garnet SID is submitting anyone for consideration?

Curious: Do you have any examples — outside of the one JU just gave — where you felt a player deserved it in particular?

[unionpalooza]

Union has yet to receive any Team of the Week awards this season. I wonder if the Garnet SID is submitting anyone for consideration?

Curious: Do you have any examples — outside of the one JU just gave — where you felt a player deserved it in particular?

I was hoping Jaden Duncan would have gotten a nod for his performance against Montclair St.  Four tackles, 2 TFL, a sack, an INT returned for a TD, and a blocked FG. 

[Jonny Utah]

Union has yet to receive any Team of the Week awards this season. I wonder if the Garnet SID is submitting anyone for consideration?

Curious: Do you have any examples — outside of the one JU just gave — where you felt a player deserved it in particular?

I was hoping Jaden Duncan would have gotten a nod for his performance against Montclair St.  Four tackles, 2 TFL, a sack, an INT returned for a TD, and a blocked FG.

The next question (already asked actually), is if anyone from the school nominated him that week.

[unionpalooza]

Union has yet to receive any Team of the Week awards this season. I wonder if the Garnet SID is submitting anyone for consideration?

Curious: Do you have any examples — outside of the one JU just gave — where you felt a player deserved it in particular?

I was hoping Jaden Duncan would have gotten a nod for his performance against Montclair St.  Four tackles, 2 TFL, a sack, an INT returned for a TD, and a blocked FG.

P.S. - Although the Ithaca o-line is excellent, I was surprised to see they got the nod this week.  317 yards rushing against a mediocre UofR run defense is nice, but not exactly exceptional.  (Union had 405 yards rushing against UofR.). But it might it might have been a slow week.

[UfanBill]

Union is getting plenty of recognition from the Liberty League weekly in football and other sports. Nationally by D3football? Other  than the O-line Week#6, RBs Michael Fiore, Jonathan Anderson, K Max Gluck and LB Spencer Goldstein have had outstanding weeks but have not been chosen by D3football.com. My question is have they been nominated. Pat?