FB: Liberty League

[Jersey42]

Frank Rossi just predicted the LL runner up at 9-1 will get a pool C bid.
https://twitter.com/FrankRossi/status/1718634498668016113

Pool C Bids:

• UW-Whitewater
• RPI/Union at 9-1
• Wheaton
• UW-River Falls*

* - UWRF likely not a Pool C (wins WIAC tie w/ W vs. UWL, L to UWL knocks out). SJU & Muhl. would be next.

[unionpalooza]

Hey some bad news for pretty much everyone on here....

Colin Schumm is going to be a stud. First IC gunslinger since the Danny Juvan era?

I mean, it's definitely hard to know everything when you've just got dudes open all day (even IC's 3rd string QB was 5-for-5 yesterday), but the kid has a cannon. 

And IC's gonna get the injured Jake Williams back for another year if he wants, given how early the injury occurred.

Deeply ironic, but injuries to IC's QB1 and RB1 did not only not derail the 2023 season, but now has 2024 looking a lot a brighter.

And sorry, but Toerper is the best coach in the LL. It's easy to forget, IC had only won one playoff game between 2004 and 2021, a literal centimeters win over Framingham State. Under his watch, the Bombers have lost 2 games, both on the road, one to the eventual national champion, and one to currently undefeated Hopkins.

This is all factual( I still think Isernia is the best coach, however with a few more seasons of data, I could yield to the Toerper opinion) and certainly laudable for the IC fans. However, the gap in talent between IC and the balance of the LL has not created a boring "yield the title" to the Bombers as of yet(Mount Union effect). I do feel they have this potential as IC has some recruiting advantages that Toerper should leverage . If Toerper has a small run in the playoffs again this year, replaces his Seniors effectively and navigates away game wins next year at Hobart and Schenectady , the only risk to the Bombers is losing Toerper to a D1 HC job (FCS, Ivy, Patriot), that is certainly on his career path goal.Although his wife is an IC grad, when the call comes he's going. ( This was a just a jealous Hobart fan throwing water on the Bombers celebration )

Yeah, I think it's a little early to tell.  Ithaca has been the largest beneficiary of the COVID fifth year phenomenon, and Toerper is winning almost entirely with kids he didn't recruit.  Poppe is in year 1.  Need to see a larger body of work before I'd declare anyone better than Isernia.

[unionpalooza]

Hey some bad news for pretty much everyone on here....

Colin Schumm is going to be a stud. First IC gunslinger since the Danny Juvan era?

I mean, it's definitely hard to know everything when you've just got dudes open all day (even IC's 3rd string QB was 5-for-5 yesterday), but the kid has a cannon. 

And IC's gonna get the injured Jake Williams back for another year if he wants, given how early the injury occurred.

Deeply ironic, but injuries to IC's QB1 and RB1 did not only not derail the 2023 season, but now has 2024 looking a lot a brighter.

And sorry, but Toerper is the best coach in the LL. It's easy to forget, IC had only won one playoff game between 2004 and 2021, a literal centimeters win over Framingham State. Under his watch, the Bombers have lost 2 games, both on the road, one to the eventual national champion, and one to currently undefeated Hopkins.

The most impressive thing about Ithaca's win yesterday (granted I did not see any of the Rochester game) is that Ithaca ran what appeared to me to be a much different offense than they have run since the beginning of the year.  With Wingfield they had a few basic sets and that was really it.  Yesterday they had dozens of formations and motions and concepts that I have not seen Ithaca run.  I don't break down their film so I'm not 100% sure but Schumm looked impressive and Ithaca featured a few freshman skill guys that I have not seen this year.

Y'all will excoriate me for this, but I thoroughly believe that if Schumm is a good downfield passer, IC may be better off this year with him than if AJ had stayed healthy.  Ithaca's glaring weakness was its inability to push the ball downfield; if they can be better at that, they'll have a much better shot at the JHUs of the world in the playoffs.  (Muhlenberg absolutely carved up JHU downfield, and comparing that with the IC-JHU game you really get a sense of how limited the passing game was under AJ.)

[Jonny Utah]

Hey some bad news for pretty much everyone on here....

Colin Schumm is going to be a stud. First IC gunslinger since the Danny Juvan era?

I mean, it's definitely hard to know everything when you've just got dudes open all day (even IC's 3rd string QB was 5-for-5 yesterday), but the kid has a cannon. 

And IC's gonna get the injured Jake Williams back for another year if he wants, given how early the injury occurred.

Deeply ironic, but injuries to IC's QB1 and RB1 did not only not derail the 2023 season, but now has 2024 looking a lot a brighter.

And sorry, but Toerper is the best coach in the LL. It's easy to forget, IC had only won one playoff game between 2004 and 2021, a literal centimeters win over Framingham State. Under his watch, the Bombers have lost 2 games, both on the road, one to the eventual national champion, and one to currently undefeated Hopkins.

The most impressive thing about Ithaca's win yesterday (granted I did not see any of the Rochester game) is that Ithaca ran what appeared to me to be a much different offense than they have run since the beginning of the year.  With Wingfield they had a few basic sets and that was really it.  Yesterday they had dozens of formations and motions and concepts that I have not seen Ithaca run.  I don't break down their film so I'm not 100% sure but Schumm looked impressive and Ithaca featured a few freshman skill guys that I have not seen this year.

Y'all will excoriate me for this, but I thoroughly believe that if Schumm is a good downfield passer, IC may be better off this year with him than if AJ had stayed healthy.  Ithaca's glaring weakness was its inability to push the ball downfield; if they can be better at that, they'll have a much better shot at the JHUs of the world in the playoffs.  (Muhlenberg absolutely carved up JHU downfield, and comparing that with the IC-JHU game you really get a sense of how limited the passing game was under AJ.)

The thought crossed my mind actually, but I think Ithaca's WR group is not what it may be most years and that's more of the issue of getting the ball downfield that's the QB situation imo. I do see what you are saying though in terms of slinging it down field.  And he is also a tough runner who puts his shoulder down and isn't afraid to take a hit.  I guess at this point of the season you gotta play tough so we will see.

[IC798891]

Ithaca has been the largest beneficiary of the COVID fifth year phenomenon, and Toerper is winning almost entirely with kids he didn't recruit.

This strikes me as factually inaccurate.

Toerper was the DC in 2019, which means he was working to recruit kids to play the 2020 season. Which means those guys are seniors now, even without the 5th year. Not to mention, since he was the HC last year, he's responsible for the first-year QB. So this idea that he's only winning with kids he didn't recruit doesn't really make sens.

But even if we accept that idea, isn't that the sign of a good coach?

Swanstrom couldn't get past RPI, into the playoffs, over the 8 win hump, Toerper takes over and the Bombers start 12-0 for the first time in like 35 years? With players that may not exactly fit his vision?

I remember when people did that to Mike Welch in 1994, saying that he was winning with Butterfield's players. As if going from 6-4 to the national semifinals was somehow totally irrelevant to the coaching job.

[unionpalooza]

Ithaca has been the largest beneficiary of the COVID fifth year phenomenon, and Toerper is winning almost entirely with kids he didn't recruit.

This strikes me as factually inaccurate.

Toerper was the DC in 2019, which means he was working to recruit kids to play the 2020 season. Which means those guys are seniors now, even without the 5th year. Not to mention, since he was the HC last year, he's responsible for the first-year QB. So this idea that he's only winning with kids he didn't recruit doesn't really make sens.

But even if we accept that idea, isn't that the sign of a good coach?

Swanstrom couldn't get past RPI, into the playoffs, over the 8 win hump, Toerper takes over and the Bombers start 12-0 for the first time in like 35 years? With players that may not exactly fit his vision?

I remember when people did that to Mike Welch in 1994, saying that he was winning with Butterfield's players. As if going from 6-4 to the national semifinals was somehow totally irrelevant to the coaching job.

All I said was the jury is out.  You can choose to believe that because a freshman has started two games this year and he was DC four years ago, he is responsible for the team's talent, butI don't.  I think Swantrom was a great recruiter and a poor game day coach.  You need to be both to be a truly good coach.  Toerper is the latter, but I'll need a few more years to know the former.  Isernia has proven to be both. 

[tecmobowler]

Understood that you can't go all in following a 62-0 win against a struggling team. With that said, a number of things Schumm did that passed the test with me:

- Was capable of stepping up into the pocket when pocket was collapsing

- Was able to go through progressions

- Used his arm strength well by throwing into a couple really tight windows on 10-15 yard passes, including one up the sideline late in the first half.

It doesn't hurt that he's tall and athletic either.

Props to him for a great Butterfield debut, and coaching staff to tweaking things to play to his strengths as well.

[tecmobowler]

Ithaca is silly senior/grad student heavy. With that said, they have at least a dozen first years guys on the roster. This is a big departure from the Welch years where you'd see 2-3 tops. They're contributing as well at QB, RB, WR, DB.....

[IC798891]

Ithaca has been the largest beneficiary of the COVID fifth year phenomenon, and Toerper is winning almost entirely with kids he didn't recruit.

This strikes me as factually inaccurate.

Toerper was the DC in 2019, which means he was working to recruit kids to play the 2020 season. Which means those guys are seniors now, even without the 5th year. Not to mention, since he was the HC last year, he's responsible for the first-year QB. So this idea that he's only winning with kids he didn't recruit doesn't really make sens.

But even if we accept that idea, isn't that the sign of a good coach?

Swanstrom couldn't get past RPI, into the playoffs, over the 8 win hump, Toerper takes over and the Bombers start 12-0 for the first time in like 35 years? With players that may not exactly fit his vision?

I remember when people did that to Mike Welch in 1994, saying that he was winning with Butterfield's players. As if going from 6-4 to the national semifinals was somehow totally irrelevant to the coaching job.

All I said was the jury is out.  You can choose to believe that because a freshman has started two games this year and he was DC four years ago, he is responsible for the team's talent, butI don't.  I think Swantrom was a great recruiter and a poor game day coach.  You need to be both to be a truly good coach.  Toerper is the latter, but I'll need a few more years to know the former.  Isernia has proven to be both.

You said Toerper was winning with Swanstrom's players, which ignores any seniors/5th years on defense , as well as any first year players on the current roster.

As far as being a game day coach, RPI plays to the level of their competition, which is why they can, among many examples:

In 2019, smoke IC, but get smoked by 5-5 St. Lawrence,
In 2021, need a dramatic comeback to beat a 3-7 Montclair at home, but beat an 11-0 Cortland on the road in the playoffs

I think that week to week inconsistency is the sign of a poorly coached team. That's my own personal preference. I know other people, including IC people, who think he's a great coach.

I also think he got a lot of mileage out of beating Swanstrom, but well, Swanstrom's not here anymore

[tecmobowler]

I didn't think Swanstrom seemed very nice to the ICTV kids. Kind of big-shot Bellichick'd them. That, along with the very bizarre playcalling in big moments, left a sour taste with me.

[Jonny Utah]

I didn't think Swanstrom seemed very nice to the ICTV kids. Kind of big-shot Bellichick'd them. That, along with the very bizarre playcalling in big moments, left a sour taste with me.

I'm just gonna say it.  God bless those kids but there have been years where they have been annoying as **** and seemed to actively pick against Ithaca when there was no reason to.  I didn't like the way they talked and talked during some of those shows when it was clear to me they didn't really follow d3 or LL football like we do here.  I get it they want to be "independent" but man it just seemed to me sometimes they picked against Ithaca for no reason.  I could be wrong. 

Either way I guess the HC has to be a pro and just play nice.  I dunno.

[Jonny Utah]

Ithaca has been the largest beneficiary of the COVID fifth year phenomenon, and Toerper is winning almost entirely with kids he didn't recruit.

This strikes me as factually inaccurate.

Toerper was the DC in 2019, which means he was working to recruit kids to play the 2020 season. Which means those guys are seniors now, even without the 5th year. Not to mention, since he was the HC last year, he's responsible for the first-year QB. So this idea that he's only winning with kids he didn't recruit doesn't really make sens.

But even if we accept that idea, isn't that the sign of a good coach?

Swanstrom couldn't get past RPI, into the playoffs, over the 8 win hump, Toerper takes over and the Bombers start 12-0 for the first time in like 35 years? With players that may not exactly fit his vision?

I remember when people did that to Mike Welch in 1994, saying that he was winning with Butterfield's players. As if going from 6-4 to the national semifinals was somehow totally irrelevant to the coaching job.

All I said was the jury is out.  You can choose to believe that because a freshman has started two games this year and he was DC four years ago, he is responsible for the team's talent, butI don't.  I think Swantrom was a great recruiter and a poor game day coach.  You need to be both to be a truly good coach.  Toerper is the latter, but I'll need a few more years to know the former.  Isernia has proven to be both.

You said Toerper was winning with Swanstrom's players, which ignores any seniors/5th years on defense , as well as any first year players on the current roster.

As far as being a game day coach, RPI plays to the level of their competition, which is why they can, among many examples:

In 2019, smoke IC, but get smoked by 5-5 St. Lawrence,
In 2021, need a dramatic comeback to beat a 3-7 Montclair at home, but beat an 11-0 Cortland on the road in the playoffs

I think that week to week inconsistency is the sign of a poorly coached team. That's my own personal preference. I know other people, including IC people, who think he's a great coach.

I also think he got a lot of mileage out of beating Swanstrom, but well, Swanstrom's not here anymore

I think it is too early to say who is the "better coach."  But I'll tell you this.  If you asked me who I would rather have as the coach at a school if I was picking a new coach (if I could pick any coach in the LL) I'm going with Toerper.  I am 100% biased but I like what I see.

[unionpalooza]

Ithaca has been the largest beneficiary of the COVID fifth year phenomenon, and Toerper is winning almost entirely with kids he didn't recruit.

This strikes me as factually inaccurate.

Toerper was the DC in 2019, which means he was working to recruit kids to play the 2020 season. Which means those guys are seniors now, even without the 5th year. Not to mention, since he was the HC last year, he's responsible for the first-year QB. So this idea that he's only winning with kids he didn't recruit doesn't really make sens.

But even if we accept that idea, isn't that the sign of a good coach?

Swanstrom couldn't get past RPI, into the playoffs, over the 8 win hump, Toerper takes over and the Bombers start 12-0 for the first time in like 35 years? With players that may not exactly fit his vision?

I remember when people did that to Mike Welch in 1994, saying that he was winning with Butterfield's players. As if going from 6-4 to the national semifinals was somehow totally irrelevant to the coaching job.

All I said was the jury is out.  You can choose to believe that because a freshman has started two games this year and he was DC four years ago, he is responsible for the team's talent, butI don't.  I think Swantrom was a great recruiter and a poor game day coach.  You need to be both to be a truly good coach.  Toerper is the latter, but I'll need a few more years to know the former.  Isernia has proven to be both.

You said Toerper was winning with Swanstrom's players, which ignores any seniors/5th years on defense , as well as any first year players on the current roster.

As far as being a game day coach, RPI plays to the level of their competition, which is why they can, among many examples:

In 2019, smoke IC, but get smoked by 5-5 St. Lawrence,
In 2021, need a dramatic comeback to beat a 3-7 Montclair at home, but beat an 11-0 Cortland on the road in the playoffs

I think that week to week inconsistency is the sign of a poorly coached team. That's my own personal preference. I know other people, including IC people, who think he's a great coach.

I also think he got a lot of mileage out of beating Swanstrom, but well, Swanstrom's not here anymore

I didn't ignore them, I just think they're Swanstrom's guys.  If recruits are the coordinators' guy and not the HC's guys, than Toerper will never has own guys again, and what are we even talking about?  You're just seeing what you want to see, which is fine.  But some of us are not personally invested in carrying Toerper's jock for him.

On Isernia, those are weird examples for your point.  The Montclair loss was the first game of the year, with a ton of new faces on offense.  I don't see how anyone looks at RPI last year and thinks, poor coaching, totally inconsistent.  I think most view that as an example of a good coaching job where that team started out green and got way better as the season wore on.

As for 2019 - you can't pin that on RPI's inconsistency under Isernia.  That was a mediocre RPI team that finished 6-5.  The outlier is not the loss to SLU, but the fact they beat Ithaca, which happened not because RPI was awesome but because Ithaca absolutely sh*t the bed.  (That 2019 team should be on the D3F's underachieving teams of the century.  They managed to add free agent "student-athlete" Germinerio to a stacked team only to fall apart after the loss to Union that year.)

One of us not being objective, and I'll give you a hint - it's not the RPI-hating Union fan singing the praises of RPI's coach.

[IC798891]

I'm just gonna say it.  God bless those kids but there have been years where they have been annoying as **** and seemed to actively pick against Ithaca when there was no reason to.  I didn't like the way they talked and talked during some of those shows when it was clear to me they didn't really follow d3 or LL football like we do here.  I get it they want to be "independent" but man it just seemed to me sometimes they picked against Ithaca for no reason.  I could be wrong. 

So, let's remember a few things:

1. Most of these students probably knew nothing of IC football or the LL before coming to IC, and they're 18/19 years old, so it's a learning process. And they're trying to learn not just about the teams, but the job of being an on-air personality, and it's not often your unpolished learning opportunities are broadcast out there.

2. Talking on live TV/radio is hard.

3. The "picking against IC" thing is tired. I'm sure there were times they did when IC "should" have been the favorite, and times they picked IC when they "should" have been the underdog. I'm sure they were wrong at times, in both directions. I'm sure it's really hard to do it when you want to appear unbiased and you also might live next door to the starting SS.

This is not to say they're infallible and don't make mistakes. But I think most of the criticism of students is simply a failure to grade on a curve. Most of the live sports we watch is broadcast by professionals, and we all know they make mistakes. So of course, students are going to as well. I work for IC's comms department, and a huge part of my job is overseeing our student and freelance staff.

And my ongoing challenge is that at 10 a.m. I might be editing a story written by someone who has worked in the field for a quarter century, and at noon, I'm editing a story by a student who hasn't even completed their Introduction to Journalism course. And that's sort of how this is.

[Jonny Utah]

I'm just gonna say it.  God bless those kids but there have been years where they have been annoying as **** and seemed to actively pick against Ithaca when there was no reason to.  I didn't like the way they talked and talked during some of those shows when it was clear to me they didn't really follow d3 or LL football like we do here.  I get it they want to be "independent" but man it just seemed to me sometimes they picked against Ithaca for no reason.  I could be wrong. 

So, let's remember a few things:

1. Most of these students probably knew nothing of IC football or the LL before coming to IC, and they're 18/19 years old, so it's a learning process. And they're trying to learn not just about the teams, but the job of being an on-air personality, and it's not often your unpolished learning opportunities are broadcast out there.

2. Talking on live TV/radio is hard.

3. The "picking against IC" thing is tired. I'm sure there were times they did when IC "should" have been the favorite, and times they picked IC when they "should" have been the underdog. I'm sure they were wrong at times, in both directions. I'm sure it's really hard to do it when you want to appear unbiased and you also might live next door to the starting SS.

This is not to say they're infallible and don't make mistakes. But I think most of the criticism of students is simply a failure to grade on a curve. Most of the live sports we watch is broadcast by professionals, and we all know they make mistakes. So of course, students are going to as well. I work for IC's comms department, and a huge part of my job is overseeing our student and freelance staff.

And my ongoing challenge is that at 10 a.m. I might be editing a story written by someone who has worked in the field for a quarter century, and at noon, I'm editing a story by a student who hasn't even completed their Introduction to Journalism course. And that's sort of how this is.

Ok I get all that and they do a good job and they are students.  99% of what they do is great. 

But on your #3 there, what do you mean it is "tired".  I've never heard it from anyone and only noticed it on my own.  Maybe I'm off here.  Are they different than the BC broadcasters (IC grad John Meterperel) who go out of the way to "root" for BC and seem to never go against BC?  Or are the ICTV students supposed to be like ESPN and be completely unbiased and basically pretend they don't attend the school they are broadcasting for? 

I will also say I haven't noticed this in a while, but there was 1-2 years in particular where it just seemed they didn't know what they were talking about and it annoyed me.  I have no problem with them being homers.  That Hobart guy is my favorite broadcaster in the LL by far and hes a huge homer.  Maybe they are taught not to be, then I understand a little.  It's just annoying when they picked against Ithaca when there was no reason to and they couldn't articulate why.