FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

To paraphrase Nick Nolte in Blue Chips:

"This aint about education, it aint much about winning, and it sure aint much about [football]. It's about money!"

If I had to guess, I'd suspect Swanstrom tripled his salary going from IC to (now) Cornell.

And you know, much like I've said elsewhere: I don't blame these guys one bit. They have families. Why shouldn't they make moves based on that?

Do I think it's 100% about chasing money? Of course not. And there are obviously some coaches who do stay at one level for a long time when they could probably move up. Dan seems very comfortable at the Ivy level. But there's no reason to believe that the buckets of extra cash these guys get when they leave D3 isn't a big factor.

I mean, be honest with yourselves: When you've moved from job to job, hasn't money been one of the biggest factors?

I thought about going into the coaching profession.  It is very competitive these days.  I remember a few friends of mine were GA's at Springfield in the late 1990s.  After one of their games one of them had to stay late breaking down film (VHS!).  I remember thinking how horrible that was after a game, even as a coach, having to sit in an office and work.  Another friend of mine was a position coach at an Ivy league school in the late 1990s.  He got paid 10K a year and had to be in the office EVERY day at 6am in case someone called.  I'm not sure if he was allowed to have another job but we have all heard the stories about coaches sleeping on coaches and working night shifts places to make ends meet.  10k a year isn't gonna cut it, even in 1998 Boston.

On the other hand I remember Coach Faggiano (who I think was just the DL coach at the time) working full time as a Biology teacher at Ithaca HS and coaching the DL after school.  I'm not too sure how common that is these days.

[IC798891]

I think the biggest issue is, the jobs itself is pretty uniform. Sure, the ivies don't have playoffs, but it's still 10-15 weeks of games, and then recruiting (and all the other whatnot).

So it's not like you can leave for a drastically better work/life balance or extra vacation time or whatever. If anything, there are more regional/national media obligations/pressure once you really climb the ladder. So really, there's not a lot these jobs can do to differentiate themselves, because even if you talk about things like "Institutional support", how is that going to manifest itself? Compensation's a big way.

Based on what little I know about head coach salaries at this level. I suspect most D3 position coaches make a livable (but not great) salary at this point. Probably mid 5 figures. But with the hours and the travel, it's not a job I would want.

I used to work for a trade magazine that talked to coaches about the profession, and I wrote a story on avoiding burnout. And it was staggering how, at the college level, it was all like "You can't work 80 hour weeks" (Meaning 60-70 hour weeks are on the table) or like "I tell my staff they can't start a new task after 10 p.m" (So you're working at 10 p.m.) or "I take a walk around my building on my lunch break" (Woah!)

So yeah, it's about money. It's the differentiator

[unionpalooza]

Lots of really interesting discussion here about important money is in the coaching game.  I get that money is really important to everyone, coaches included.  But I guess I sometimes still scratch my head a little; most people who get into coaching do it in spite of the money, not for it.  I think it's one of those odd professions that initially draws people who value all sorts of things above money (passion for the game, for the rare shot at real mentorship at scale, etc.) but then as you go along, more money always seems like to the answer to life's problems. 

If I were a coach, I would absolutely rather be winning games at a D3 school for 25 years, deeply entwined in college community and a web of 600 young men who I got to see grow up around me, than to be making twice or three times the money but moving town every 5-10 years and struggling to go .500 at the FCS level.  I think of Poppe, and I just sort of feel bad at the prospect of him losing 7 or 8 games a year in an empty stadium at a university where almost no one care about athletics. That doesn't sound like much fun at all.

But as is well-established here, I am old-fashioned and a romantic, so I get that's not the normal perspective on this one.

[Jonny Utah]

Lots of really interesting discussion here about important money is in the coaching game.  I get that money is really important to everyone, coaches included.  But I guess I sometimes still scratch my head a little; most people who get into coaching do it in spite of the money, not for it.  I think it's one of those odd professions that initially draws people who value all sorts of things above money (passion for the game, for the rare shot at real mentorship at scale, etc.) but then as you go along, more money always seems like to the answer to life's problems. 

If I were a coach, I would absolutely rather be winning games at a D3 school for 25 years, deeply entwined in college community and a web of 600 young men who I got to see grow up around me, than to be making twice or three times the money but moving town every 5-10 years and struggling to go .500 at the FCS level.  I think of Poppe, and I just sort of feel bad at the prospect of him losing 7 or 8 games a year in an empty stadium at a university where almost no one care about athletics. That doesn't sound like much fun at all.

But as is well-established here, I am old-fashioned and a romantic, so I get that's not the normal perspective on this one.

No I get what you are saying.  A lot of it is being "home" too.  And that home is either where you are from or where you went to college.  I could also mean like for someone like Toerper (hopefully) that he is living in an area close to where his wife grew up.  But football coaches do this all the time, although it is rare they do it after one year like Poppe did.  But that brings me back to the part where I'm surprised he even got that job in the first place. 

[The Mole]

Totally agree. Ivies are jobs for a lifetime with good $ and kids (fundraising not fun though). It does depend on the job though. 3 gigs that are graveyards for coaches in the Ivy: Brown, Columbia and Cornell. Since 1956 they COMBINE for 8 titles, 7 shared and ONE outright.

Columbia: ONE in 1961 shared with Harvard
Cornell: THREE, 1971 shared with Dartmouth, 1988 shared with Penn and 1990 shared with Dartmouth
Brown: FOUR, 1976 shared with Yale, 1999 shared with Yale, 2005 outright, 2008 shared with Harvard

Leads to a deeper discussion of "why?". Lack of support from admissions, facilities, administration does not care, etc. But, those track records are indicative of something being wrong. Revolving door of coaches at all of them. Best of luck to Coach Poppe that he can do what many coaches prior to him were not able to accomplish.

Lots of really interesting discussion here about important money is in the coaching game.  I get that money is really important to everyone, coaches included.  But I guess I sometimes still scratch my head a little; most people who get into coaching do it in spite of the money, not for it.  I think it's one of those odd professions that initially draws people who value all sorts of things above money (passion for the game, for the rare shot at real mentorship at scale, etc.) but then as you go along, more money always seems like to the answer to life's problems. 

If I were a coach, I would absolutely rather be winning games at a D3 school for 25 years, deeply entwined in college community and a web of 600 young men who I got to see grow up around me, than to be making twice or three times the money but moving town every 5-10 years and struggling to go .500 at the FCS level.  I think of Poppe, and I just sort of feel bad at the prospect of him losing 7 or 8 games a year in an empty stadium at a university where almost no one care about athletics. That doesn't sound like much fun at all.

But as is well-established here, I am old-fashioned and a romantic, so I get that's not the normal perspective on this one.

[Ice Bear]

Lots of really interesting discussion here about important money is in the coaching game.  I get that money is really important to everyone, coaches included.  But I guess I sometimes still scratch my head a little; most people who get into coaching do it in spite of the money, not for it.  I think it's one of those odd professions that initially draws people who value all sorts of things above money (passion for the game, for the rare shot at real mentorship at scale, etc.) but then as you go along, more money always seems like to the answer to life's problems. 

If I were a coach, I would absolutely rather be winning games at a D3 school for 25 years, deeply entwined in college community and a web of 600 young men who I got to see grow up around me, than to be making twice or three times the money but moving town every 5-10 years and struggling to go .500 at the FCS level.  I think of Poppe, and I just sort of feel bad at the prospect of him losing 7 or 8 games a year in an empty stadium at a university where almost no one care about athletics. That doesn't sound like much fun at all.

But as is well-established here, I am old-fashioned and a romantic, so I get that's not the normal perspective on this one.

I'm with you on this. I get exactly what you are saying and would want the same thing. To me, I would love to be a division 3 coach at a small school where I could raise a family, have some job stability and do ok financially. I always looked at Audino like he had it made. I did feel very badly about how it ended for him and for everyone else. I truly believe, love him or hate him, the man's soul was stitched with garnet fibers. To me, to have a life that imbedded in such a strong community with history and meaning, and not have to be in the spotlight with outrageous expectations/etc., is the way to go. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

No doubt Columbia is going to be tough sailing for Poppe. Is it just me or can anyone else see Poppe dressed up as a lion running down Madison Ave carrying a Columbia Football flag?

[UfanBill]

The Final Top 25 is out. It's great to see that Cortland was a unanimous #1 garnering all 25 votes as it should be. Ithaca moved up one spot from #19 to #18 and Union finally entered the poll at #21. It was an epic season for NYS football. 

[Bartman]

The Final Top 25 is out. It's great to see that Cortland was a unanimous #1 garnering all 25 votes as it should be. Ithaca moved up one spot from #19 to #18 and Union finally entered the poll at #21. It was an epic season for NYS football.

Congrats to Ithaca and Union on their final rankings, the only ranking that matters. With Cortland winning it all and some of the East success this year, I'm hoping that the coaches are taking advantage of this recruiting window. I still can't believe that a New York State team are actually Champions this year thanks to an awesome run by the Cortland Red Dragons. 2024 Football season.....can't wait. Best to you all and your familys  this Holiday season.

[Jonny Utah]

Landers Green in the Portal (I think it has been mentioned on the boards here somewhere)

I also just saw Jared Martino (Framingham State LB who was top 5 in the nation in tackles) transfers to Central Conn State. 

Just makes me think Union is a better place than Central Conn State or Iona, Wagner or Sacred Heart.  I have a feeling Green ends up somewhere like that.

[Bartman]

Welcome back to the Board. In Hobart Football news, Hobart Hall of Fame coach Mike Cragg has retired from Hobart and William Smith Colleges. He was the most successful coach in the history of the Hobart football program having turned the reigns over to one of his own, Kevin DeWall. Most recently he was a Senior Director in the HWS Advancement office. A summary from the announcement:

"Hobart football's all-time wins leader, Cragg directed the Statesmen to 157 wins against just 62 losses, a .717 winning percentage. His teams earned 11 Liberty League Championships and 10 NCAA playoff bids, advancing to the national quarterfinals in 2012 and 2014.

After going 4-6 in 1995, his first season as head coach, Cragg finished each of the subsequent 22 seasons with a winning record. The Hobart quarterfinal teams of the past decade established new program records for wins in a season, each posting a 12-1 mark in the final ledger. From 2011 to 2015, Cragg led the Statesmen on an impressive 24-game winning streak against Liberty League opponents.

Cragg mentored 326 all-conference selections, including 24 players of the year (offensive, defensive, or special teams) and seven rookies of the year. He also coached dozens of All-Americans, including consensus All-Americans Dave Russell '98, Alex Bell '05, Tyre Coleman '15 and Ali Marpet '15. Several Statesmen have gone on to play football professionally, most notably Marpet, who was the 61st overall pick in the 2015 NFL Draft and won a Super Bowl with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers."

Coach Cragg's teams were always prepared and feared no one. He was known as the "Riverboat gambler" for his calls at key points in the game (fake punts and field goals, unexpected onside kicks and trick offensive plays often devised by now coach DeWall). Thanks to Coach Cragg for putting Hobart Football on the national scene , especially with his special player Ali Marpet introducing himself on Monday Night Football as Ali Marpet from THE HOBART COLLEGE.

Thanks Coach and HIP HOBART(FOOTBALL) FOREVER!

[unionpalooza]

The boards are back!  So much to discuss!  In Union's world, the big news is the hire of Coach Drach, who looks like a great fit and is off to a great start by all accounts.  Should make for some very special Union-Hobart tilts down the line.  I can't wait to see how Drach does - he is a major upgrade in terms of head coaching experience/maturity and playcalling over last year's staff, and he'll inherit a talented, experienced offense and strong overall roster.  Bigger holes to fill on defense with the retirement of DC Flanders and the loss of most of last year's elite front seven.  Apparently recruiting has gone very well notwithstanding the second head coach transition in as many years.  Only one real transfer that I know of (Landers Green, per above); a couple of graduating seniors are going to play their fifth year at D2s/elsewhere, but that was expected as Union does not have graduate programs, so harder to keep them around post-COVID.

What's the word elsewhere?

[Bartman]

The boards are back!  So much to discuss!  In Union's world, the big news is the hire of Coach Drach, who looks like a great fit and is off to a great start by all accounts.  Should make for some very special Union-Hobart tilts down the line.  I can't wait to see how Drach does - he is a major upgrade in terms of head coaching experience/maturity and playcalling over last year's staff, and he'll inherit a talented, experienced offense and strong overall roster.  Bigger holes to fill on defense with the retirement of DC Flanders and the loss of most of last year's elite front seven.  Apparently recruiting has gone very well notwithstanding the second head coach transition in as many years.  Only one real transfer that I know of (Landers Green, per above); a couple of graduating seniors are going to play their fifth year at D2s/elsewhere, but that was expected as Union does not have graduate programs, so harder to keep them around post-COVID.

What's the word elsewhere?

Coach Drach was a very good Offensive Coordinator at Hobart. He will take a special interest in the QB position based on his personal playing experience. He is a bit on the "arrogant" side, so he should fit in very well at Union

[unionpalooza]

The boards are back!  So much to discuss!  In Union's world, the big news is the hire of Coach Drach, who looks like a great fit and is off to a great start by all accounts.  Should make for some very special Union-Hobart tilts down the line.  I can't wait to see how Drach does - he is a major upgrade in terms of head coaching experience/maturity and playcalling over last year's staff, and he'll inherit a talented, experienced offense and strong overall roster.  Bigger holes to fill on defense with the retirement of DC Flanders and the loss of most of last year's elite front seven.  Apparently recruiting has gone very well notwithstanding the second head coach transition in as many years.  Only one real transfer that I know of (Landers Green, per above); a couple of graduating seniors are going to play their fifth year at D2s/elsewhere, but that was expected as Union does not have graduate programs, so harder to keep them around post-COVID.

What's the word elsewhere?

Coach Drach was a very good Offensive Coordinator at Hobart. He will take a special interest in the QB position based on his personal playing experience. He is a bit on the "arrogant" side, so he should fit in very well at Union

Yeah, I'm very interested to see how he approaches the QB room.  Patch Flanagan has the inside track, and is a fast, athletic QB who can both throw and run, and there are a couple of well-regarded younger guys who are more pure passers.  For the past few coaches, Union's passing game was successful but pretty limited to sideline outs, WR screens and deep balls, which is not enough to get the job done against the best teams.  I am hoping Drach can develop a broader passing game with more throws over the middle, a QB who can patiently get to his third or fourth read, etc.

I'm confident that, whatever he does, play calling will be much improved.  (Last year it was a mess, often forcing things that weren't working and failing to recognize what was; never gave the offense a real chance at Ithaca or Hopkins.)

[UfanBill]

GREAT!!!...we're back...The first thing I want to do is thank Pat and everyone else involved in resurrecting this board. It's true that we often don't truly appreciate what we've got until it's gone.

After yet another coaching change at Union it will be very interesting to see what shakes out for the Garnet Chargers(it's growing on me) next season. I wasn't expecting it to go so well last year and looked what happened so I'm optimistic as always.

[Bartman]

The boards are back!  So much to discuss!  In Union's world, the big news is the hire of Coach Drach, who looks like a great fit and is off to a great start by all accounts.  Should make for some very special Union-Hobart tilts down the line.  I can't wait to see how Drach does - he is a major upgrade in terms of head coaching experience/maturity and playcalling over last year's staff, and he'll inherit a talented, experienced offense and strong overall roster.  Bigger holes to fill on defense with the retirement of DC Flanders and the loss of most of last year's elite front seven.  Apparently recruiting has gone very well notwithstanding the second head coach transition in as many years.  Only one real transfer that I know of (Landers Green, per above); a couple of graduating seniors are going to play their fifth year at D2s/elsewhere, but that was expected as Union does not have graduate programs, so harder to keep them around post-COVID.

What's the word elsewhere?

Coach Drach was a very good Offensive Coordinator at Hobart. He will take a special interest in the QB position based on his personal playing experience. He is a bit on the "arrogant" side, so he should fit in very well at Union

Yeah, I'm very interested to see how he approaches the QB room.  Patch Flanagan has the inside track, and is a fast, athletic QB who can both throw and run, and there are a couple of well-regarded younger guys who are more pure passers.  For the past few coaches, Union's passing game was successful but pretty limited to sideline outs, WR screens and deep balls, which is not enough to get the job done against the best teams.  I am hoping Drach can develop a broader passing game with more throws over the middle, a QB who can patiently get to his third or fourth read, etc.

I'm confident that, whatever he does, play calling will be much improved.  (Last year it was a mess, often forcing things that weren't working and failing to recognize what was; never gave the offense a real chance at Ithaca or Hopkins.)

Coach Drach should not disappoint the Union football family. He is very smart and will handle communications well. Drach could have been a good choice for Hobart in 2018 but Hobart selected one of their grads in Kevin DeWall(Both were excellent Coordinators for Coach Cragg). Jon has been successful overall at Wilkes(except for a 2-3 record against rival King's College). There should be a competitive tension between these two coaches when the Garnet Charges meet the Statesmen this Fall at Jon's old Boswell home in Geneva.