FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

Heres another thought on the SOS, (and how it might help Union some years, not this year)

If RPI played Springfield instead of Utica and Endicott and beat them and lost the leauge to Union, they would probably still get a pool C if they lost.

If RPI loses the LL title to Union this year, they probably will not get a pool C bid.

Union still has a chance at a pool A bid, and had their chance at a pool C bid by actually playing SC.

So it should work out one way or the other for both teams right?

[labart96]

Wow - it's like Day of our Lives up in this B.....

Anyway, here's more fuel for the fire:

Peel the Onion - Hobart vs. Union

This weekend Hobart travels to Schenectady, NY to face long-time rival Union College (5-2, 5-0).  This Saturday will be the 91st meeting between the two schools, making Union the second longest active Hobart football rivalry (Hobart and Union first faced off in 1896, Union leads the all-time series 48-40-2).  The Dutchmen of Union have won the last two contests.  The Statesmen's last win over Union was the somewhat infamous 33-27 OT decision back in 2004 at the Boz.

Last weekend Union won their 5th consecutive LL contest as So QB Jared Gourrier rushed for a career high 103 yards and a TD to lead Union to a 20-9 victory at St. Lawrence. This was Union's 12th straight win in the series.  Gourrier was 8 for 14 with two interceptions and 95 yards passing.  Sr RB Zach Tillo had 78 yards on 22 carries with a TD in the wet conditions up in Canton (aka Almost-Canada), NY.  Tillo also led the Dutchmen with 39 yards on three receptions.  To date, the Dutchmen have won 19 of their last 20 Liberty League games, and this season's seniors have a four year record in league play of 24-2 (.920).

With a victory this weekend at Frank Bailey Field, Hobart can make up for what was just a humiliating 31-14 loss last year at the Boz.  Hobart came into that game undefeated and ranked #14 in NCAA D3.  The end result was a humbling one for the Statesmen, who came out flat, couldn't get anything going on offense and were torched on defense for 418 yards.

Fortunately for Hobart, this year's Union squad no longer possesses their all-time career passing, receiving and rushing yardage leaders.  The Union offense is still fairly potent  though, averaging about 300+ yards and 21 points a game.  Union also leads the LL in pass defense and pass defense efficiency, and are second in scoring defense, opponent first downs and total defense.

Still, the Hobart offense is having a record setting year.  TGP checked the Hobart media guide, and from what TGP could see, this current scoring streak (5 games in a row with over 40 points scored) is a first in 116 seasons of Hobart Football.  Looking at the stat comparison listed in the the Union - Hobart Game notes:

http://www.unionathletics.com/Pdfs/football/2007/10/30/Game%208%20Notes%202007.pdf

Hobart clearly has the stronger offense.  It will be interesting to see if Union has success in cooling off the red hot Andy Strom who is averaging about 2x the yardage the Dutchmen D allows.

*Note - the penalty data is incorrect.  The Statesmen have only been penalized 45 times for 340 yds (42.5/game avg), not the 30 for 1088 shown in the Union notes.

3 Keys to the Game:

1.  Score early and often
While Hobart averages over 40 points a game, Union has only allowed a total of 40 points during their current 5 game win streak.  Given that Hobart is on the road, they need to take the Union crowd out of the game to eliminate the home field advantage (which is quite formidable at Union given the fact that a fraternity house is practically 20 feet from the football field). 

2.  Get to Gourrier
Unlike Hobart's smooth transition from Shawn Mizro to Andy Strom, Union is still searching for an heir apparent to their graduated all-time passing leader, Anthony Mariotti '07.  So far Union has used 3 different QBs this season, but Jared Gourrier has started the last two games.  Looking at Gourrier's stats would lead you to believe he is mediocre at best as a passer.  He is more of a rushing style QB, so if Hobart can bottle him up and force him into passing situations, they stand to benefit from the fact Gourrier has shown to have some ball control issues.  If Gourrier struggles, expect to see So QB Andrew Catellier (more of a pure drop back passer) take over the Union offense.

3.  Remember/Avenge 2006
The 31-14 loss to Union in 2006 was the lone blemish on what was one of Hobart's best regular seasons.  Anyone who listened to/was at that game could tell you Union simply kicked Hobart's collective a$$.  Hobart came out flat, made mental mistakes, and were physically dominated at the line of scrimmage leading to their most lop-sided defeat since a 45-14 whipping by Rowan in the 2004 NCAA play-offs.  Both Hobart and Union need to win this game to keep their NCAA hopes alive, so the stakes are high once again.  A loss eliminates Hobart from NCAA consideration (same deal for Union).

For any of you that may be travelling to the Albany area for the game this Saturday, Hobart will be hosting both pre and post game alumni/ae gatherings for any one who cares to attend (see the Hobart alumni website for more info).

Although Union has had Hobart's number as of late, TGP thinks Hobart notches a win this weekend.  This Union team hasn't played an offense of Hobart's caliber all year.  I think Union and Bart play close in the first half and Hobart puts the game away in the second.

TGP's Prediction:

Hobart 35 - Union 21

[Senor RedTackle]

Heres another thought on the SOS, (and how it might help Union some years, not this year)

If RPI played Springfield instead of Utica and Endicott and beat them and lost the leauge to Union, they would probably still get a pool C if they lost.

If RPI loses the LL title to Union this year, they probably will not get a pool C bid.

Union still has a chance at a pool A bid, and had their chance at a pool C bid by actually playing SC.

So it should work out one way or the other for both teams right?

hey...here's where Frank can help RT!!!

JU..if you go back to Frank's earlier posts on playoffs, RT recalls that if RPI beats Rochester then loses to Union we can either win the LL league in this scenario if Hobart beats the U...OR get a pool C bid at 8-1.

Frank..please confirm

[Senor RedTackle]

OK Frank now let me say the last post irritated me..

Let me see if I can logically summarize

1) You say the rules favor RPI with the 1 loss tie breaker

2) You detest the fact that as you suggest RPI does not schedule the hardest OOC opponents.

3) You admit that this serves RPI well later in the season with the rules as they are.

4) You assert this will only prove to somehow hurt the program?

5) You reference a player who was attracted to the program because they were in the playoffs?

I believe 1, 2, and 3 don't equal #4. 

As for # 5, If I was a player coming out of HS and was evaluating my options ala D3, my preference would be in order to play for a winning program, play in a competitive league and play for a team that had a realistic shot at the NCAA's.  I would be less interested in whether our OOC schedule included Muhlenberg or Albright. 
Let's see the coach says "we've made the NCAA's 3 of the last 5 years" or "look at our tough schedule"

Your crusade seems to be misguided.  RPI plays a soft OOC schedule.. others do not... that is a given and not debated by anyone on the site.

Should RPI be penalized for following a strategy of building their teams confidence early in the season while at the same time putting themselves in a good situation come tiebreaker time as the rules currently exist?  No

Should the rules be changed?  Appears so. 

Is RPI ranking deserved.. maybe.. maybe not.  Can Union do something about RPI appearing in the playoffs.... sure. 

well, well said. Keep em coming

[dewcrew88]

UC has finished a 6-4, and 3-3, in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country.

...

Who's to say that Joe King and the rest of the RPI contingent didn't think Utica would continue to improve and not slink back down to the basement/cellar area of the Empire 8?

Did you really just post that with a straight face?!

Yes I did.

[Frank Rossi]

OK Frank now let me say the last post irritated me..

Let me see if I can logically summarize

1) You say the rules favor RPI with the 1 loss tie breaker

2) You detest the fact that as you suggest RPI does not schedule the hardest OOC opponents.

3) You admit that this serves RPI well later in the season with the rules as they are.

4) You assert this will only prove to somehow hurt the program?

5) You reference a player who was attracted to the program because they were in the playoffs?

I believe 1, 2, and 3 don't equal #4. 

As for # 5, If I was a player coming out of HS and was evaluating my options ala D3, my preference would be in order to play for a winning program, play in a competitive league and play for a team that had a realistic shot at the NCAA's.  I would be less interested in whether our OOC schedule included Muhlenberg or Albright. 
Let's see the coach says "we've made the NCAA's 3 of the last 5 years" or "look at our tough schedule"

Your crusade seems to be misguided.  RPI plays a soft OOC schedule.. others do not... that is a given and not debated by anyone on the site.

Should RPI be penalized for following a strategy of building their teams confidence early in the season while at the same time putting themselves in a good situation come tiebreaker time as the rules currently exist?  No

Should the rules be changed?  Appears so. 

Is RPI ranking deserved.. maybe.. maybe not.  Can Union do something about RPI appearing in the playoffs.... sure. 

Think outside of the box for a second.  There are two ways a team can broaden its recruiting reach effectively:

1) Gain traction deep into the playoffs; or

2) Have exposure in areas where you have interest in kids who may not have considered the school before.

There are a lot of teams that finish 9-1 and 8-2 (or in RPI's case, 8-1 and 7-2) routinely, but it doesn't mean they've scored well in the recruiting game (see NEFC teams).  Pennsylvania is a hotbed of high school talent that seems to go untapped by RPI -- and what exposure does RPI have to Pennsylvania?  With the exception of Susquehanna now -- not much.  Same goes for New Jersey.  

With the current state of RPI's schedule, I find another 2003 very unlikely in RPI's future.  Joe King's comment about scheduling earlier this season spells a pretty ugly scenario for how he's going to be able to attract 2003-type attention in the future for his team.  This will not make it easy to recruit kids from other states that might read message boards like these and watch the bottom of ESPN's screen during the Division 3 playoffs -- kids in states like Louisiana, Florida and out west.

Now, I'm going to take a step back and say I like Joe King and his entire family.  His wife was my sixth grade teacher at St. Mary's in Ballston Spa, and I used to go to the track with his sons as they were schoolmates of mine growing up.  I always see his son Joey in church when I'm up there, and I consider them all friends still.  So, when I make these comments, realize that I'm not making them in the whole "RPI Sucks" mode (that's all in good fun with the Shoes Game coming up in less than two weeks) -- I'm making them in more of a "a strong RPI helps make a strong Liberty League in the future" mode.  I've said it before -- if every team in the LL adopted Joe's philosophy about scheduling, then the LL would be relegated to NEFC status.  Since RPI is enjoying at least playoff berth success, or the stronger possibility of such success, year in and year out, then there is incentive for other LL teams to do the same thing as RPI does in their scheduling...and I think we all agree, that's a terrible position to take.

Curry is a winning program, Stim...does that mean it automatically goes high on a high-schooler's list of schools to check out by that fact alone?  No.  So, I think you need to take a step back and think about the grand scheme of what could happen over the next few years instead of knee-jerk by saying 9-1 with a first-round loss is acceptable every year for recruiting purposes.

[dewcrew88]

RE: Ithacas schedule

Although ICs nonleague opponenents arent that great this year. (Lycoming, Kings, Cortland, Brockport), I would say that if in 3 years, if all those teams were the top ranked teams in the east, IC would still be playing them.  

I also have a feeling (and Coach King kind of alluded to it in that early season quote from him) that if Utica and Endicott were the top teams in the east, RPI would look for other (easier) teams to start off their season with.


Is their anything wrong with that?  Not really.  Im gonna say Ithaca probably deserved to be home over RPI in 2001 because of the schedule, but thats not how the system works.  Untill that system changes, Coach King looks like he knows what hes doing in terms of the schedule (in terms of getting his team to the playoff).

With all this bickering about Utica and Endicott being a crappy schedule, let's all not forget that Utica beat RPI 9-7 in 2004. And UC has finished a 6-4, and 3-3, in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country. Who's to say that Joe King and the rest of the RPI contingent didn't think Utica would continue to improve and not slink back down to the basement/cellar area of the Empire 8?

Because he basically said he doesnt want to play the best teams in the country non-league.

And its 2007, not 2004.

And Im going to assume that RPI plus 99% of the d3football world (with the exception of you) didnt expect Utica to be that good this year or next year.

Bottomline is that RPI plays Utica as a warmup for their league schedule.....

I know that now, but whose to say they weren't going to be good in 2006 after finishing with a winning record in 2005? And now, 2 years after the fact, I'm sure the 2006 and 2007 games had already been scheduled long before they were played.

[dewcrew88]

BudCrew, can you explain your rationale to having Rochester ranked #9 in your East Region Poll while having Union unranked??

Thanks.

U89,
Rochester may be a bit misplaced.

That is all.
DC88

[Frank Rossi]

UC has finished a 6-4, and 3-3, in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country.

...

Who's to say that Joe King and the rest of the RPI contingent didn't think Utica would continue to improve and not slink back down to the basement/cellar area of the Empire 8?

Did you really just post that with a straight face?!

Yes I did.

Well, you best discuss with your editors, since the E8 isn't ranked nearly as high as you're statement would presume according to K-Mack's list from a few weeks back.

[union89]

Either way, regardless of schedule, we all would like to be where RPI is right now.  Being in control of your own destiny, regardless of how they got there, is worth it.

THANK YOU JOSE!!

This is the point RT was trying to make. All that SOS stuff and other numbers Frank and others throw out there is just crap to RT. The bottom line is, win your conference and you're in, otherwise, pray for a Pool C. All these SOS numbers and other stats are just noise to RT that people throw out there to compensate for their team not being in control of its own destiny. Seriously, someone give me a good reason for RT to look at those "stats" as meaningful? Right now, RT's team is 7-0, first in Upstate rankings, and on a definite path to the NCAAs if they win out. If they drop one, then it becomes a little more involved.  Is this where SOS matters?..if so, then RT will care but RT is not the type who likes to have others control his fate. The net is that "we win, we're in".

Should the men of Troy feel any less about their accomplishments if they were to go 9-0 and make it to the dance but didn't play a rediculaz schedule?? Isn't that what happened in 2003?....same "soft schedule" and ironically, RPI got waxed by Hobart in the last game in 2003 and made it to the final 4.  Enough said.....go cry yourselves to sleep on your meaningless statistic pillows as RPI is competing for the NCAAs.

Why is RT so ornery??

Is he mad at the polls....
Is he mad at the pollsters....
Is he mad at Fran Rossi's giant brain....
Is he mad at Kieth....
Is he mad that no one will acknowledge that RPI controls thier own destiny....
Is he mad that Union controls their own destiny as much as RPI...

RT seems upset, but U89 can't figure out who or what he is pissed about....must be some kind of inner struggle...

[dewcrew88]

UC has finished a 6-4, and 3-3, in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country.

...

Who's to say that Joe King and the rest of the RPI contingent didn't think Utica would continue to improve and not slink back down to the basement/cellar area of the Empire 8?

Did you really just post that with a straight face?!

Yes I did.

Well, you best discuss with your editors, since the E8 isn't ranked nearly as high as you're statement would presume according to K-Mack's list from a few weeks back.

I think this whole OOC thing goes two ways: One way which says that RPI plays a weak OOC sked with Utica and Endicott, and the other that says Union plays a tougher OOC with Springfield and Muhlenberg...
No doubt that most of the time, that will be the case, however, How about in 2005 when Springfield was in a down year? Did that mean Union played a weaker schedule that year? No. The OOC is relative, and all "wack", imho.

[Senor RedTackle]

Either way, regardless of schedule, we all would like to be where RPI is right now.  Being in control of your own destiny, regardless of how they got there, is worth it.

THANK YOU JOSE!!

This is the point RT was trying to make. All that SOS stuff and other numbers Frank and others throw out there is just crap to RT. The bottom line is, win your conference and you're in, otherwise, pray for a Pool C. All these SOS numbers and other stats are just noise to RT that people throw out there to compensate for their team not being in control of its own destiny. Seriously, someone give me a good reason for RT to look at those "stats" as meaningful? Right now, RT's team is 7-0, first in Upstate rankings, and on a definite path to the NCAAs if they win out. If they drop one, then it becomes a little more involved.  Is this where SOS matters?..if so, then RT will care but RT is not the type who likes to have others control his fate. The net is that "we win, we're in".

Should the men of Troy feel any less about their accomplishments if they were to go 9-0 and make it to the dance but didn't play a rediculaz schedule?? Isn't that what happened in 2003?....same "soft schedule" and ironically, RPI got waxed by Hobart in the last game in 2003 and made it to the final 4.  Enough said.....go cry yourselves to sleep on your meaningless statistic pillows as RPI is competing for the NCAAs.

Why is RT so ornery??

Is he mad at the polls....
Is he mad at the pollsters....
Is he mad at Fran Rossi's giant brain....
Is he mad at Kieth....
Is he mad that no one will acknowledge that RPI controls thier own destiny....
Is he mad that Union controls their own destiny as much as RPI...

RT seems upset, but U89 can't figure out who or what he is pissed about....must be some ind of inner struggle...

RT is angry the guru edited his signature line

[Jonny Utah]

Heres another thought on the SOS, (and how it might help Union some years, not this year)

If RPI played Springfield instead of Utica and Endicott and beat them and lost the leauge to Union, they would probably still get a pool C if they lost.

If RPI loses the LL title to Union this year, they probably will not get a pool C bid.

Union still has a chance at a pool A bid, and had their chance at a pool C bid by actually playing SC.

So it should work out one way or the other for both teams right?

hey...here's where Frank can help RT!!!

JU..if you go back to Frank's earlier posts on playoffs, RT recalls that if RPI beats Rochester then loses to Union we can either win the LL league in this scenario if Hobart beats the U...OR get a pool C bid at 8-1.

Frank..please confirm

Right, Im saying if Union wins the league....

['gro]

Enough!!

RPI will live (2003) and die (2001) by their schedule. So they are 1-1 when it really counts, the playoffs. One quick exit, one deep run.

1999 was a special year because it was RPI's 1st trip to the big dance and played eventual stagg bowl participant Rowan (the team that ended MUC's winning streak).  We did everything wrong that week... we caved into the NCAA and moved the game to the turf field and not '86 field.  We let Action Jackson speak to us pre-game with her "I'm supposed to like Hockey but I really like football even though this is the 1st game I'm going to watch live" speech. We let rowan put up 14 points in 3 minuets.

Anyway... quit yer bitchin about the schedule. As you can see it works about 50% of the time. The rest of the time RPI has not been in playoff contention because of CONFERENCE losses.

[Frank Rossi]

UC has finished a 6-4, and 3-3, in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country.

...

Who's to say that Joe King and the rest of the RPI contingent didn't think Utica would continue to improve and not slink back down to the basement/cellar area of the Empire 8?

Did you really just post that with a straight face?!

Yes I did.

Well, you best discuss with your editors, since the E8 isn't ranked nearly as high as you're statement would presume according to K-Mack's list from a few weeks back.

I think this whole OOC thing goes two ways: One way which says that RPI plays a weak OOC sked with Utica and Endicott, and the other that says Union plays a tougher OOC with Springfield and Muhlenberg...
No doubt that most of the time, that will be the case, however, How about in 2005 when Springfield was in a down year? Did that mean Union played a weaker schedule that year? No. The OOC is relative, and all "wack", imho.

The discussion goes a little beyond the numbers a team is posting in any given year.  The issue is more "prospective scheduling," in which you look at a team's resume and base your scheduling of that team on their [lack of] success.  If you want to take a weak team and sort of use it as a warm-up game, then schedule it as a 10th game and maintain two historically better teams in that scenario.  If those teams have off years, then at least you can argue that they have a good history and play in a strong conference when you have to face the music in seeding and in Pool C.  If we take your argument at face value, then basically, we would never be able to schedule games until the week before the game, based on the record at that point.  No, the point is that you can guess that Utica will not be a consistently strong team for a few years -- so either don't play them or play them as a tenth game.