FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

Rumor has it that Union will be playing a 10 game schedule again in 2010.  Out of conference games look like Ithaca, Salisbury and Utica.

I have it on pretty good authority that this isn't the case.

[Jonny Utah]

Rumor has it that Union will be playing a 10 game schedule again in 2010.  Out of conference games look like Ithaca, Salisbury and Utica.

I have it on pretty good authority that this isn't the case.

Frank what about the IC/Union series?  Is that a done deal?

[Reno Hightower]

I don't know who is claiming being disrespected among RPI supporters.  IMHO, and if you had the oppty to ask the coaches and players they would probably agree that they have not earned any adulation as a top team .... yet.

Against Utica it was sloppy.  But Utica seemed inspired and maybe played a bit above their level.  The Utica coaches seemed to have a good defensive scheme and I thought they tackled pretty well keeping the play in front of them. 

WPI will be a test.

It hasn't been said this year...yet.  But it happens every year.  RPI does something good at the end of the year, finishes strong then it's back to 3 votes at the beginning of the next year, until they find out if RPI can beat Hobart or Union.  It's the same cycle because they aren't the model of consistency.  That can only come with proving their worth, in which the opportunity comes but twice a year.

Good point LD.  Losing to TCNJ in the playoffs at home was really, really bad for the program.  Just getting to the playoffs is not the goal and gro knows the coaches and players want to advance as far as possible but the truth is out of 4 trips to the dance since '99 3 were 1-and-dones (full disclosure: gro played on 2 of those teams).

Had RPI beat TCNJ, regardless of the result of the next game against MUC, RPI would be in a much better place for gaining national respect and not sitting behind Curry in the "others receiving votes" section.

Listen as much as I can't stand RPI I have conceded to the validity of their reasoning regarding the scheduling of "weak" teams in the Out of Conference games each year. Yet I feel there have been some very good points made here. As a fan of the LL I would ike to see RPI join Union and Hobart in scheduling some "tougher" competition in the beginning of the season. I feel it would clearly help with recruiting and their overall perception by others regarding their program on a national level and the LL as a whole. Yet each year RPI continues (I hate to admit this) either beat or play Hobart and Union. So how much can the weak schedule really be hurting them? On the other hand if they played some tough teams early from OOC maybe they wouldn't lose those games to UR and SLU like they do each year. I guess my conclusion is that as long as they are making the NCAA's and beating the top comp in their league the scheduling isn't hurting them all that much. But they should get "a pair" and mix things up.

They have made NCAAs 1 time in the past 4 seasons. That, in addition to the losses to UR and SLU have to hurt recruiting. ECAC appearaces galore though. Plus a trip to the Final 4 doesnt hurt!
Bottom line is it would tremendously help the LL's national standing if RPI would schedule even lower teams from the E8,CC or NJAC. Wins over William Patterson and Gettysburg would do the LL a lot more good than wins over Becker and Endicott. And those would be 2 games that RPI should absolutely beat every year.

[union89]

LD.....how's Fogell doing this week??

I guess we'll find out tonight.  I wouldn't count me out with LT, Gates and SD D.

not too shabby...

Wow....didn't think you had much of a shot...congrats.

[PBR...]

LD.....how's Fogell doing this week??

I guess we'll find out tonight.  I wouldn't count me out with LT, Gates and SD D.

not too shabby...

Wow....didn't think you had much of a shot...congrats.

the clownpunchers and pbrwarriors square off this week...pbr has a ton of players w/ the bye week not good....

[dlippiel]

Reno good point!

[Garnet]

union89 my old man definetly remembers you from that Stagg Bowl team, I think that is pretty cool. Anyway do you really think they should pass on Catellier and play Connelly? I do think Catellier looked poor and made two HUGE mistakes, but I also felt he didn't have a lot of time out there and the coverage was decent. I don't know that O just looked so anemic to me (aside from Coney). I think the U O has some serious talent but they just need to figure out how to use it. I was very annoyed that Audino did not call more pass plays to Gourrier early on. You have to get him more involved. The QB question is an interesting one.

dlippiel,
I certainly think the U should go with the FR Connelly....maybe suffer a bit short term, but IMO, Catellier is a lost cause.  Catellier is a local kid and has a good deal of support.  Connelly impressed me with his arm....the touch will come....the sooner the better.  Gourrier is a huge talent and very nice kid.  I had the opportunity to meet many of the players at the golf tourney on Friday and I must say I was very impressed with every single kid.  All were very personable and thankful of the support.

Seems like a similar situation from years ago.  A local favorite veteran (Poirer) gets replaced by a promising first year player( Russ).  Will history repeat??

[stimulator]

They have made NCAAs 1 time in the past 4 seasons. That, in addition to the losses to UR and SLU have to hurt recruiting. ECAC appearaces galore though. Plus a trip to the Final 4 doesnt hurt!
Bottom line is it would tremendously help the LL's national standing if RPI would schedule even lower teams from the E8,CC or NJAC. Wins over William Patterson and Gettysburg would do the LL a lot more good than wins over Becker and Endicott. And those would be 2 games that RPI should absolutely beat every year.

We went through this same argument last year... Frank articulating your exact point.

If you put yourself in the recruits shoes, the student athlete considering RPI, WPI, Union, NESCACS or even SJF or Ithaca, in my opinion isn't focusing on the Rochester game of '07.

Bottom line:

Is it a successful program... check
Do they have decent facilities... check (soon to be some of the best in the country)
Do they make the playoffs (or in the case of the NESCAC's do they have playoffs!)...check
Is it a good academic fit...depends but as far as reputation...check
Do I like the coaches...maybe

Whether they play Cortland or Ithaca or NJ or SJF game 1 vs Endicott is way down the list as far as decision criteria.

Would I like to see them play on e of these schools vs Endicott or Utica?  Yes and No.  Yes for the entertainment value and to see where RPI really stands vs. some of the better teams.  No because it does give you a chance for your team to build some confidence with a few wins.  Plus as we hashed over last year until the rules are changed it gives you the best chance to make the playoffs.

[Frank Rossi]

They have made NCAAs 1 time in the past 4 seasons. That, in addition to the losses to UR and SLU have to hurt recruiting. ECAC appearaces galore though. Plus a trip to the Final 4 doesnt hurt!
Bottom line is it would tremendously help the LL's national standing if RPI would schedule even lower teams from the E8,CC or NJAC. Wins over William Patterson and Gettysburg would do the LL a lot more good than wins over Becker and Endicott. And those would be 2 games that RPI should absolutely beat every year.

We went through this same argument last year... Frank articulating your exact point.

If you put yourself in the recruits shoes, the student athlete considering RPI, WPI, Union, NESCACS or even SJF or Ithaca, in my opinion isn't focusing on the Rochester game of '07.

Bottom line:

Is it a successful program... check
Do they have decent facilities... check (soon to be some of the best in the country)
Do they make the playoffs (or in the case of the NESCAC's do they have playoffs!)...check
Is it a good academic fit...depends but as far as reputation...check
Do I like the coaches...maybe

Whether they play Cortland or Ithaca or NJ or SJF game 1 vs Endicott is way down the list as far as decision criteria.

Would I like to see them play on e of these schools vs Endicott or Utica?  Yes and No.  Yes for the entertainment value and to see where RPI really stands vs. some of the better teams.  No because it does give you a chance for your team to build some confidence with a few wins.  Plus as we hashed over last year until the rules are changed it gives you the best chance to make the playoffs.

Thanks for the shout off the bat there, Stim.  However, I think there's a chicken-and-egg issue in your argument.  Isn't it a marquis game that can draw attention to a program in the first place? 

It's like when we go into a bar or club... we all say that looks are way down on the list when we're further in the courting process, but didn't looks play virtually a 100% role in us getting to the courting process in the first place?  I don't think it's that different for 17- and 18-year-old students choosing which colleges' programs to look at in the first place.  Playing Ithaca and a Penn school would give you exposure and provide a better name recognition in football circles than a loss in the Round of 32 every year, in my honest opinion.

- Frank

[PBR...]

They have made NCAAs 1 time in the past 4 seasons. That, in addition to the losses to UR and SLU have to hurt recruiting. ECAC appearaces galore though. Plus a trip to the Final 4 doesnt hurt!
Bottom line is it would tremendously help the LL's national standing if RPI would schedule even lower teams from the E8,CC or NJAC. Wins over William Patterson and Gettysburg would do the LL a lot more good than wins over Becker and Endicott. And those would be 2 games that RPI should absolutely beat every year.

We went through this same argument last year... Frank articulating your exact point.

If you put yourself in the recruits shoes, the student athlete considering RPI, WPI, Union, NESCACS or even SJF or Ithaca, in my opinion isn't focusing on the Rochester game of '07.

Bottom line:

Is it a successful program... check
Do they have decent facilities... check (soon to be some of the best in the country)
Do they make the playoffs (or in the case of the NESCAC's do they have playoffs!)...check
Is it a good academic fit...depends but as far as reputation...check
Do I like the coaches...maybe

Whether they play Cortland or Ithaca or NJ or SJF game 1 vs Endicott is way down the list as far as decision criteria.

Would I like to see them play on e of these schools vs Endicott or Utica?  Yes and No.  Yes for the entertainment value and to see where RPI really stands vs. some of the better teams.  No because it does give you a chance for your team to build some confidence with a few wins.  Plus as we hashed over last year until the rules are changed it gives you the best chance to make the playoffs.

Thanks for the shout off the bat there, Stim.  However, I think there's a chicken-and-egg issue in your argument.  Isn't it a marquis game that can draw attention to a program in the first place? 

It's like when we go into a bar or club... we all say that looks are way down on the list when we're further in the courting process, but didn't looks play virtually a 100% role in us getting to the courting process in the first place?  I don't think it's that different for 17- and 18-year-old students choosing which colleges' programs to look at in the first place.  Playing Ithaca and a Penn school would give you exposure and provide a better name recognition in football circles than a loss in the Round of 32 every year, in my honest opinion.

- Frank

of course most penn. schools would take care of bizness...

[JQV]

Isn't the x-factor in this argument the extent high school kids are aware of d3 football in the first place.   I think recruits definitely consider the prestige and exposure of an athletic program during the recruiting process but what percentage of the recruits honestly know the difference between Endicott and Cortland during the recruiting process?  I came to IC from Florida so maybe my experience is different than the experience of kids that grow up in the northeast.  But for me, I had never heard of any of the schools we played when I got to IC.

['gro]

Isn't the x-factor in this argument the extent high school kids are aware of d3 football in the first place.   I think recruits definitely consider the prestige and exposure of an athletic program during the recruiting process but what percentage of the recruits honestly know the difference between Endicott and Cortland during the recruiting process?  I came to IC from Florida so maybe my experience is different than the experience of kids that grow up in the northeast.  But for me, I had never heard of any of the schools we played when I got to IC.

That's a good point JQV. Maybe the Guru or KMack can chime in here... I think this site has obviously helped with D3 exposure to potential players.  Recruiting coaches are most likely going to direct kids to the site if they are highly ranked or have all americans. There has probably been an ATN column on this.

[lewdogg11]

Isn't there 2 separate arguments going on here?  We're talking recruiting vs. improving on a national scale.  It's not apples to apples.  We have all these talks of 'tune-up' games.  The LL is a tune up league!  There are 3 good teams.  Most years, RPI, Hobart, and Union will go atleast .500.  This success and their pasts are enough to get recruits.  I think they all DO get recruits.  Adding 1 tougher team to the schedule is not going to hurt the recruiting if they lose.  However, if it maybe propels them to the next level, where they can actually compete EVERY year as a team that can make the East Finals, that will help the recruiting a LOT more. 

I'm pretty sure that this is a big argument that no one can win.  But, as far as i'm concerned, it comes down to who is happy making the playoffs and hoping you get a few bounces and pulling out a game(ala 2003), and who wants to know they can win in the playoffs and do it consistently.  RPI's program was so bad for so long that I think they are now stuck in a frame of mind that a season revolves around beating Union and making the playoffs.   If the goals were set higher, I think you might see the schedule change.  Maybe the new stadium will help someday.  Who knows.

[Frank Rossi]

Isn't there 2 separate arguments going on here?  We're talking recruiting vs. improving on a national scale.  It's not apples to apples.  We have all these talks of 'tune-up' games.  The LL is a tune up league!  There are 3 good teams.  Most years, RPI, Hobart, and Union will go atleast .500.  This success and their pasts are enough to get recruits.  I think they all DO get recruits.  Adding 1 tougher team to the schedule is not going to hurt the recruiting if they lose.  However, if it maybe propels them to the next level, where they can actually compete EVERY year as a team that can make the East Finals, that will help the recruiting a LOT more. 

I'm pretty sure that this is a big argument that no one can win.  But, as far as i'm concerned, it comes down to who is happy making the playoffs and hoping you get a few bounces and pulling out a game(ala 2003), and who wants to know they can win in the playoffs and do it consistently.  RPI's program was so bad for so long that I think they are now stuck in a frame of mind that a season revolves around beating Union and making the playoffs.   If the goals were set higher, I think you might see the schedule change.  Maybe the new stadium will help someday.  Who knows.

Last year, I made the argument pretty simple by asking this question:

"What happens if all eight LL teams follow RPI's scheduling example?"

If all of them play two softball non-league games and just a 9-game schedule, what happens?

[Jonny Utah]

Isn't the x-factor in this argument the extent high school kids are aware of d3 football in the first place.   I think recruits definitely consider the prestige and exposure of an athletic program during the recruiting process but what percentage of the recruits honestly know the difference between Endicott and Cortland during the recruiting process?  I came to IC from Florida so maybe my experience is different than the experience of kids that grow up in the northeast.  But for me, I had never heard of any of the schools we played when I got to IC.

That's a good point JQV. Maybe the Guru or KMack can chime in here... I think this site has obviously helped with D3 exposure to potential players.  Recruiting coaches are most likely going to direct kids to the site if they are highly ranked or have all americans. There has probably been an ATN column on this.

In my experience of coaching Mass high school football I can tell you that the top students are very aware of many d3 programs and what being a good football player can do for you.  But this is just for the nescac schools for the most part.  But many kids in high school that really want to play football in college ask themselves at some point "where can I play football in college and at what level".

The kid growing up in Rochester is going to have heard of SJF and maybe not a school like Stonehill or Curry.  The kid in Boston is not going to have heard of Cortland, SJF or Brockport.

But a list of the top schools nationally for that boston kid will show places like Hobart, RPI, Union, Ithaca, St. Lawrence and maybe Alfred as an option.  These are all regional schools with places like RPI and WPI being a little more national because of their specialized programs.