FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

Isn't there 2 separate arguments going on here?  We're talking recruiting vs. improving on a national scale.  It's not apples to apples.  We have all these talks of 'tune-up' games.  The LL is a tune up league!  There are 3 good teams.  Most years, RPI, Hobart, and Union will go atleast .500.  This success and their pasts are enough to get recruits.  I think they all DO get recruits.  Adding 1 tougher team to the schedule is not going to hurt the recruiting if they lose.  However, if it maybe propels them to the next level, where they can actually compete EVERY year as a team that can make the East Finals, that will help the recruiting a LOT more. 

I'm pretty sure that this is a big argument that no one can win.  But, as far as i'm concerned, it comes down to who is happy making the playoffs and hoping you get a few bounces and pulling out a game(ala 2003), and who wants to know they can win in the playoffs and do it consistently.  RPI's program was so bad for so long that I think they are now stuck in a frame of mind that a season revolves around beating Union and making the playoffs.   If the goals were set higher, I think you might see the schedule change.  Maybe the new stadium will help someday.  Who knows.

Last year, I made the argument pretty simple by asking this question:

"What happens if all eight LL teams follow RPI's scheduling example?"

If all of them play two softball non-league games and just a 9-game schedule, what happens?

You might not see that second team like Hobart last year get a bid?

[stimulator]

In my experience of coaching Mass high school football I can tell you that the top students are very aware of many d3 programs and what being a good football player can do for you.  But this is just for the nescac schools for the most part.  But many kids in high school that really want to play football in college ask themselves at some point "where can I play football in college and at what level".

The kid growing up in Rochester is going to have heard of SJF and maybe not a school like Stonehill or Curry.  The kid in Boston is not going to have heard of Cortland, SJF or Brockport.

But a list of the top schools nationally for that boston kid will show places like Hobart, RPI, Union, Ithaca, St. Lawrence and maybe Alfred as an option.  These are all regional schools with places like RPI and WPI being a little more national because of their specialized programs.

Having gone through the recruiting process with my son (from Mass) and fairly recently I can tell you that a good fb player and student who is looking to play (not sit for 3 years - or 4) is very aware of the D3/D2 options. 

The new facilities/stadium at RPI will have a tremendous impact on recruiting and also on the schedule in coming years.  Having visited most of the NESCAC schools and a few D2 (Bryant, Bentley) and lower tier D1AA (Holy Cross, Sacred Heart) in New England and NY, RPI will have FB facilities to equal if not surpass these programs.

Add specialized programs, academic reputation, and a chance to get on the field sooner than later, and it will be very attractive to a kid at the D2 skill level.

Then you add the demanding schedule by playing the best in the east for non conference games. 

Would be shocked if they don't ratchet up the schedule based on the talent that should be attracted in the coming years.

[redswarm81]

Aren't there 2 separate arguments going on here?  We're talking recruiting vs. improving on a national scale. 

I'm pretty sure that this is a big argument that no one can win.  But, as far as i'm concerned, it comes down to who is happy making the playoffs and hoping you get a few bounces and pulling out a game(ala 2003), and who wants to know they can win in the playoffs and do it consistently.  RPI's program was so bad for so long that I think they are now stuck in a frame of mind that a season revolves around beating Union and making the playoffs.   If the goals were set higher, I think you might see the schedule change.  Maybe the new stadium will help someday.  Who knows.

Last year, I made the argument pretty simple by asking this question:

"What happens if all eight LL teams follow RPI's scheduling example?"

If all of them play two softball non-league games and just a 9-game schedule, what happens?

You might not see that second team like Hobart last year get a bid?

My first reaction is the same as JU's - no Pool C bid for the Liberty League.

But on reflection, I began to wonder, if the Pool C doesn't go to the Liberty League, where does it go?   This is the sort of thing that d3football.com superstar Ralph Turner can analyze better than I can, but we've already seen non-region teams shipped in to the East Region as top seeds.  I don't get the impression that the Selection Committee really wants to expand that sort of "chess move" system, since their public statements and their selection criteria continue to emphasize Regional regular competition during the regular season.

I'm certain that many of the selectors would want to deny a Pool C bid to the Liberty League, but they'll have difficulty doing so if they actually use the selection criteria--although we have in the past seen some examples of novel selection criteria interpretations.

For now, I'll ignore the implied question about effect on recruiting.

[Frank Rossi]

There was a discussion during the first ATN Podcast that PC and KMac had that I found very interesting, regarding UW-W and Mout Union.  The conversation centered on the issue that success breeds success in Division III Football, and this is their evidence:  Mount Union seniors have had 15 extra weeks of practice over the past three years, as they have had to prepare for three five-week playoff cycles based on their success in 2005, 2006 and 2007.  Those 15 weeks of practice have not been for cupcake teams, either -- they have been for playoff teams, with the challenge escalating week by week.  Because these seniors have had over an extra season worth of practice experience, helping the team prepare for strong opponents each week, the seniors (and even the juniors who have had 10 extra weeks) allow the team to have a solid foundation in a year following important graduations of seniors like Garcon.

I bring up this discussion for this reason -- how can a team that only plays two or three major challengers, two or three mid-range challengers and two or three cupcakes every year expect to compete at some point against the Mt. Unions of this world on a consistent basis when the experience the players are getting is so lopsided?  That's where I think the RPI debate is important -- practicing for an upcoming challenging team will lend itself to seasoning players of a team if and when it comes time for a playoff game for RPI or anyone else.  It cannot be easy to pump players up for a game against Becker, Endicott, Utica or Mt. Ida every year -- and I'd argue that you're robbing those players of about eight weeks of seasoning in doing so (four years times two games), or 12 weeks if we include the bye week.  

My biggest overall concern isn't RPI (I seriously think Coach King is a classy individual and his family reflects that from my personal interactions over the years -- so I'm not trying to crucify RPI).  My concern is trying to draw the Liberty League toward a point where it:  (a) is stronger than the E8; and (b) has a national prominance that will allow these schools to benefit in many ways (i.e., even better student-athlete applications, financial implications).  Right now, I think the Liberty League is at a crossroads -- a lot of schools are trying to figure out how to schedule for the future (9 or 10 games, tough or easy opponents) -- and the example I don't want to see followed is the one from which RPI has admittedly thrived in this decade.  Great that it works for RPI -- but if the entire LL does it, we have a really big problem that will become more and more clear over the next five years, assuming the LL even survives the next five years (that's another line of posts for a future day).

- Frank

[Edit:  Having read RS81's post, let me be clear about something.  Even if the LL received two bids by default, as RS81 subtlely is stating, that might be a long-term disaster.  Last year, no LL team advanced in the NCAAs or won in ECACs (a combined 0-4 for the LL).  That performance is what caused such a huge difference between the LL and the E8 in the conference rankings you saw in the Kickoff '08 webzine PC and KMac spearheaded (I have this on good authority).  Thus, the chances for the LL to retain its supposed "lock" on a second bid aren't so great right now.  I'd rather see one team make the NCAAs and advance two or three rounds than see two teams make the dance and lose off the bat because of the implications.]

[Garnet]

In my experience of coaching Mass high school football I can tell you that the top students are very aware of many d3 programs and what being a good football player can do for you.  But this is just for the nescac schools for the most part.  But many kids in high school that really want to play football in college ask themselves at some point "where can I play football in college and at what level".

The kid growing up in Rochester is going to have heard of SJF and maybe not a school like Stonehill or Curry.  The kid in Boston is not going to have heard of Cortland, SJF or Brockport.

But a list of the top schools nationally for that boston kid will show places like Hobart, RPI, Union, Ithaca, St. Lawrence and maybe Alfred as an option.  These are all regional schools with places like RPI and WPI being a little more national because of their specialized programs.

Having gone through the recruiting process with my son (from Mass) and fairly recently I can tell you that a good fb player and student who is looking to play (not sit for 3 years - or 4) is very aware of the D3/D2 options. 

The new facilities/stadium at RPI will have a tremendous impact on recruiting and also on the schedule in coming years.  Having visited most of the NESCAC schools and a few D2 (Bryant, Bentley) and lower tier D1AA (Holy Cross, Sacred Heart) in New England and NY, RPI will have FB facilities to equal if not surpass these programs.

Add specialized programs, academic reputation, and a chance to get on the field sooner than later, and it will be very attractive to a kid at the D2 skill level.

Then you add the demanding schedule by playing the best in the east for non conference games. 

Would be shocked if they don't ratchet up the schedule based on the talent that should be attracted in the coming years.

It is pretty sad that Holy Cross is now considered "lower tier". 

[PBR...]

come on robert get on board w/ the boyz and pbr will be front row

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article1712616.ece

[Jonny Utah]

In my experience of coaching Mass high school football I can tell you that the top students are very aware of many d3 programs and what being a good football player can do for you.  But this is just for the nescac schools for the most part.  But many kids in high school that really want to play football in college ask themselves at some point "where can I play football in college and at what level".

The kid growing up in Rochester is going to have heard of SJF and maybe not a school like Stonehill or Curry.  The kid in Boston is not going to have heard of Cortland, SJF or Brockport.

But a list of the top schools nationally for that boston kid will show places like Hobart, RPI, Union, Ithaca, St. Lawrence and maybe Alfred as an option.  These are all regional schools with places like RPI and WPI being a little more national because of their specialized programs.

Having gone through the recruiting process with my son (from Mass) and fairly recently I can tell you that a good fb player and student who is looking to play (not sit for 3 years - or 4) is very aware of the D3/D2 options. 

The new facilities/stadium at RPI will have a tremendous impact on recruiting and also on the schedule in coming years.  Having visited most of the NESCAC schools and a few D2 (Bryant, Bentley) and lower tier D1AA (Holy Cross, Sacred Heart) in New England and NY, RPI will have FB facilities to equal if not surpass these programs.

Add specialized programs, academic reputation, and a chance to get on the field sooner than later, and it will be very attractive to a kid at the D2 skill level.

Then you add the demanding schedule by playing the best in the east for non conference games. 

Would be shocked if they don't ratchet up the schedule based on the talent that should be attracted in the coming years.

It is pretty sad that Holy Cross is now considered "lower tier". 

Garnet, I would disagree with Stim on this one.  Holy Cross is a top 30-40 1-AA team the past 2 years and would win the national championship in d3 if they were in it.  And I dont know what RPIs facilities are going to look like, but Holy Crosses stadium is one of the better ones in 1-AA. 

[stimulator]

Garnet, I would disagree with Stim on this one.  Holy Cross is a top 30-40 1-AA team the past 2 years and would win the national championship in d3 if they were in it.  And I dont know what RPIs facilities are going to look like, but Holy Crosses stadium is one of the better ones in 1-AA. 

Yeah maybe a bit harsh with that assessment.  Their stadium is sweet.  Drive by it every Sat on the way to Troy.  They have come on lately re: record and standing but there was a long drought between those Gordie Lockbaum years and say the last 3 or 4 (2002 4-8, 2003 1-11, 2004 3-8)  They had a losing record from 2000 - 2005 when they went finally went 6-5 against mostly Patriot League opponents which is not exactly the same as playing James Madison, New Hampshire and UMass.

But as I said they have turned it around and probably should have beat UMass a few weeks ago.

[lewdogg11]

Garnet, I would disagree with Stim on this one.  Holy Cross is a top 30-40 1-AA team the past 2 years and would win the national championship in d3 if they were in it.  And I dont know what RPIs facilities are going to look like, but Holy Crosses stadium is one of the better ones in 1-AA. 

Yeah maybe a bit harsh with that assessment.  Their stadium is sweet.  Drive by it every Sat on the way to Troy.  They have come on lately re: record and standing but there was a long drought between those Gordie Lockbaum years and say the last 3 or 4 (2002 4-8, 2003 1-11, 2004 3-8)  They had a losing record from 2000 - 2005 when they went finally went 6-5 against mostly Patriot League opponents which is not exactly the same as playing James Madison, New Hampshire and UMass.

But as I said they have turned it around and probably should have beat UMass a few weeks ago.

Stim, you're a Haverhill guy?  Ohhhh man!!!!  I knew you had to be a fellow MVC'er.  I knew I liked you for some reason.

[stimulator]

Yup... MVC.

Really enjoyed the league when my son played.   A tough game every week.  Have been a few decent players come through the league in the past few years.  Kids playing at Delaware, Brown, Bryant, Bentley, Hobart, Hofstra, Harvard, Northeastern etc.

Not necessarily the outcomes for Haverhill though.  Did enjoy watching the Hillies end Chelmsford's 29 game MVC win streak in '04 05.. The Lions come on the field with 110 kids Haverhill 45.. Chelmsford favored by probably 3-4 touchdowns.  Haverhill wins with a late touchdown and PAT.. gets on Mike Lynch's High five!

[lewdogg11]

Yup... MVC.

Really enjoyed the league when my son played.   A tough game every week.  Have been a few decent players come through the league in the past few years.  Kids playing at Delaware, Brown, Bryant, Bentley, Hobart, Hofstra, Harvard, Northeastern etc.

Not necessarily the outcomes for Haverhill though.  Did enjoy watching the Hillies end Chelmsford's 29 game MVC win streak in '04 05.. The Lions come on the field with 110 kids Haverhill 45.. Chelmsford favored by probably 3-4 touchdowns.  Haverhill wins with a late touchdown and PAT.. gets on Mike Lynch's High five!

Ahhh the good old days. One of my old coaches is the Dracut coach now, and they look to be pretty nasty this year.  Good to see.  Big fan of your story, because EVERYONE hates Chelmsford.  I get to see Haverhill's poop uniforms every year with my Dad on Turkey Day. 

[dlippiel]

There was a discussion during the first ATN Podcast that PC and KMac had that I found very interesting, regarding UW-W and Mout Union.  The conversation centered on the issue that success breeds success in Division III Football, and this is their evidence:  Mount Union seniors have had 15 extra weeks of practice over the past three years, as they have had to prepare for three five-week playoff cycles based on their success in 2005, 2006 and 2007.  Those 15 weeks of practice have not been for cupcake teams, either -- they have been for playoff teams, with the challenge escalating week by week.  Because these seniors have had over an extra season worth of practice experience, helping the team prepare for strong opponents each week, the seniors (and even the juniors who have had 10 extra weeks) allow the team to have a solid foundation in a year following important graduations of seniors like Garcon.

I bring up this discussion for this reason -- how can a team that only plays two or three major challengers, two or three mid-range challengers and two or three cupcakes every year expect to compete at some point against the Mt. Unions of this world on a consistent basis when the experience the players are getting is so lopsided?  That's where I think the RPI debate is important -- practicing for an upcoming challenging team will lend itself to seasoning players of a team if and when it comes time for a playoff game for RPI or anyone else.  It cannot be easy to pump players up for a game against Becker, Endicott, Utica or Mt. Ida every year -- and I'd argue that you're robbing those players of about eight weeks of seasoning in doing so (four years times two games), or 12 weeks if we include the bye week.  

My biggest overall concern isn't RPI (I seriously think Coach King is a classy individual and his family reflects that from my personal interactions over the years -- so I'm not trying to crucify RPI).  My concern is trying to draw the Liberty League toward a point where it:  (a) is stronger than the E8; and (b) has a national prominance that will allow these schools to benefit in many ways (i.e., even better student-athlete applications, financial implications).  Right now, I think the Liberty League is at a crossroads -- a lot of schools are trying to figure out how to schedule for the future (9 or 10 games, tough or easy opponents) -- and the example I don't want to see followed is the one from which RPI has admittedly thrived in this decade.  Great that it works for RPI -- but if the entire LL does it, we have a really big problem that will become more and more clear over the next five years, assuming the LL even survives the next five years (that's another line of posts for a future day).

- Frank

[Edit:  Having read RS81's post, let me be clear about something.  Even if the LL received two bids by default, as RS81 subtlely is stating, that might be a long-term disaster.  Last year, no LL team advanced in the NCAAs or won in ECACs (a combined 0-4 for the LL).  That performance is what caused such a huge difference between the LL and the E8 in the conference rankings you saw in the Kickoff '08 webzine PC and KMac spearheaded (I have this on good authority).  Thus, the chances for the LL to retain its supposed "lock" on a second bid aren't so great right now.  I'd rather see one team make the NCAAs and advance two or three rounds than see two teams make the dance and lose off the bat because of the implications.]

I think this is a very valid point by Frank. If we look at the LL as a whole and want what is best for the league, especially regarding it's growth and comparison to the rest of d3 on a national level, it's teams need to step up and grow by scheduling more "quality" non conference opponents or win in the post season (which has not happened in a while). I think the LL teams need to make a move in one of these directions fast or it is going to keep slipping and losing whatever respect it has on a national level. Frank said it best "Right now, I think the Liberty League is at a crossroads..." I hope we go in right direction.

[Rolevio]

Garnet, I would disagree with Stim on this one.  Holy Cross is a top 30-40 1-AA team the past 2 years and would win the national championship in d3 if they were in it.  And I dont know what RPIs facilities are going to look like, but Holy Crosses stadium is one of the better ones in 1-AA. 

Yeah maybe a bit harsh with that assessment.  Their stadium is sweet.  Drive by it every Sat on the way to Troy.  They have come on lately re: record and standing but there was a long drought between those Gordie Lockbaum years and say the last 3 or 4 (2002 4-8, 2003 1-11, 2004 3-8)  They had a losing record from 2000 - 2005 when they went finally went 6-5 against mostly Patriot League opponents which is not exactly the same as playing James Madison, New Hampshire and UMass.

But as I said they have turned it around and probably should have beat UMass a few weeks ago.

Stim, you're a Haverhill guy?  Ohhhh man!!!!  I knew you had to be a fellow MVC'er.  I knew I liked you for some reason.

Rolevio is curious how LD knew Stim was a Haverhill guy from that post

[Jonny Utah]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8596794/?MSNHPHMA

Heres an article I just read about several head coaches on the hot seat.  I still can't believe that Herm Edwards isn't on this list and is still coaching in the NFL.  This guy is the biggest fraud at the head coaching level right now.  Hes a nice guy, but he is not the guy you want as the head coach of your football team.

- If I were a Yankee fan, I would be sick to my stomach after hearing last night that the Yanks were ready to offer him a new contract.  The scary thing about that is the owners probably think the same way cashman does.  Hes done a horrible job.

[lewdogg11]

Garnet, I would disagree with Stim on this one.  Holy Cross is a top 30-40 1-AA team the past 2 years and would win the national championship in d3 if they were in it.  And I dont know what RPIs facilities are going to look like, but Holy Crosses stadium is one of the better ones in 1-AA. 

Yeah maybe a bit harsh with that assessment.  Their stadium is sweet.  Drive by it every Sat on the way to Troy.  They have come on lately re: record and standing but there was a long drought between those Gordie Lockbaum years and say the last 3 or 4 (2002 4-8, 2003 1-11, 2004 3-8)  They had a losing record from 2000 - 2005 when they went finally went 6-5 against mostly Patriot League opponents which is not exactly the same as playing James Madison, New Hampshire and UMass.

But as I said they have turned it around and probably should have beat UMass a few weeks ago.

Stim, you're a Haverhill guy?  Ohhhh man!!!!  I knew you had to be a fellow MVC'er.  I knew I liked you for some reason.

Rolevio is curious how LD knew Stim was a Haverhill guy from that post

Well, his trip by the Holy Cross stadium is similar to my old drive, so I did a little research, like captain internet.