FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

So, TGP thinks WPI's strategy is a sound one.  They are working on building their program but a combo of local presence as well as playing more established programs (Union, RPI, etc).

It may be a sound strategy for WPI. RT is trying to use that to justify RPI's schedule, though, and WPI and RPI are not on the same level right now.

Agreed.  TGP will admit he's happy that Hobart plays teams like CMU and Dickinson instead of Endicott etc.  

TGP...Here's a question that's bothering me re: Hobart:

I think we've seen over the past couple years scenarios whereby Hobart's 10th game was a difference-maker in what-if scenarios and in reality as to whether they'd receive an at-large bid.  So why in the world did they drop their 10th game?  I know scheduling is usually a few years in advance, but this seems a little disappointing from a LL fan's perspective.  Any insight?

- Frank

Cost.....specifically cost containment for the overall athletic program was Union's reasoning.....could be the same for 'Bart.

I've proven that Union, with a home-and-home series of some quality, would actually expend zero, if not make money, in a revenue-sharing scenario.  To me, the cost answer is a BOC put forth by a lazy person or someone who is trying to shade their real answer with one that sounds good in a sound bite.

Note:  I'm not pinning this answer on you -- I've heard the same answer probably from the same person/people and have never bought into it.

- Frank

[Jonny Utah]

I think we are putting SOS on too high a level.  There are many teams (Mount Union included) that do not have the #1 SOS in the country and still end up doing ok.

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program.  You need a coach who knows how to actually coach the game and outcoach the other team.
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but a good coach cant win with bad players, and a bad coach cant win with good players.  You need both.  You have to sell kids on the school and program.  You might even have to lie to them.

Level 2
1) Type of school-- You arent going to get enough athletes at a school like MIT or Army/Navy, and you might not get the students at the Mt. Ida/Framingham St. to do well.  The better academic schools will have better programs and can attract better student/athletes at the d3 level.
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc.  This further attracts the d3 football player.

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, and is something that will then attract student/athletes regardless of the first 2 levels sometimes (See Notre Dame, Duke Basketball etc)
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas (SJF, Mt. Union, Rowan).  It also may hurt those other schools on the fringe (St. Lawrence, Bates)

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles that may factor into a kids decision to go to a school.  (money, academics, girls, whatever)

Just JUs two cents again.......

[lewdogg11]

I agree with you totally.  I'm not saying RPI needs to beef their schedule up with stud teams.  But they are basically extending their preseason with 2 additional scrimmages right now.  Then they sleep walk into the LL.  The first half this week could be ugly, and Rochetser could have a lead.  I hope i'm wrong, but that is the way it goes.

I think the schedule so far gives Rochester a really legit shot of winning this weekend.

[Jonny Utah]

So, TGP thinks WPI's strategy is a sound one.  They are working on building their program but a combo of local presence as well as playing more established programs (Union, RPI, etc).

It may be a sound strategy for WPI. RT is trying to use that to justify RPI's schedule, though, and WPI and RPI are not on the same level right now.

Agreed.  TGP will admit he's happy that Hobart plays teams like CMU and Dickinson instead of Endicott etc.  

TGP...Here's a question that's bothering me re: Hobart:

I think we've seen over the past couple years scenarios whereby Hobart's 10th game was a difference-maker in what-if scenarios and in reality as to whether they'd receive an at-large bid.  So why in the world did they drop their 10th game?  I know scheduling is usually a few years in advance, but this seems a little disappointing from a LL fan's perspective.  Any insight?

- Frank

Cost.....specifically cost containment for the overall athletic program was Union's reasoning.....could be the same for 'Bart.

I've proven that Union, with a home-and-home series of some quality, would actually expend zero, if not make money, in a revenue-sharing scenario.  To me, the cost answer is a BOC put forth by a lazy person or someone who is trying to shade their real answer with one that sounds good in a sound bite.

Note:  I'm not pinning this answer on you -- I've heard the same answer probably from the same person/people and have never bought into it.

- Frank

Frank Id like to hear it.  Even the game where you dont need a bus and overnight stay (-5K?), every home game must not make money at the d3 level right?  This is all I can come up with..

-Officials (7 at $75)- ($500)
-Union cops with 4 foot wooden fishbeater batons (10 at $150) ($1000)
-random guys paid to set up the field on overtime ($1000?)
-food/drink usually goes to some club team anyway
-Guys at the gate collecting tickets ($300)
-Ambulance at the game ($500-$1000?)


Im sure im missing some, but with a few thousand students, and program sales that might not make as much as you think, how is Union going to make money?

[Frank Rossi]

I think we are putting SOS on too high a level.  There are many teams (Mount Union included) that do not have the #1 SOS in the country and still end up doing ok.

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program.  You need a coach who knows how to actually coach the game and outcoach the other team.
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but a good coach cant win with bad players, and a bad coach cant win with good players.  You need both.  You have to sell kids on the school and program.  You might even have to lie to them.

Level 2
1) Type of school-- You arent going to get enough athletes at a school like MIT or Army/Navy, and you might not get the students at the Mt. Ida/Framingham St. to do well.  The better academic schools will have better programs and can attract better student/athletes at the d3 level.
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc.  This further attracts the d3 football player.

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, and is something that will then attract student/athletes regardless of the first 2 levels sometimes (See Notre Dame, Duke Basketball etc)
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas (SJF, Mt. Union, Rowan).  It also may hurt those other schools on the fringe (St. Lawrence, Bates)

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles that may factor into a kids decision to go to a school.  (money, academics, girls, whatever)

Just JUs two cents again.......

Jonny (and RT, who basically wrote on the same topic earlier) -

I agree with you both in what you have said - and I really did read every word as they were both very thought-provoking and mature comments from two guys that I know have really grown up over the last few years in terms of their insights about how all this stuff works (re: playoffs, scheduling and the such).  And trust me, I used to be pretty immature about this stuff and feel like my arguments these days are much tighter and informed than they used to be.

That being said, the one thing I feel is missing from both of your perspectives is this issue:  how do you impress, as Unionfan put it, the group of "monkeys throwing darts" at the end of the season in case you trip up in your league and lose the AQ?  It's one thing to know that you can beat a team in your own mind -- it's another to convey that feeling/knowledge to some group that only gets snippets of your season on November 15th-16th, 2008, to pick the at-large teams.  I don't think it's their goal to place a team in the playoffs that they feel might be a one-and-done scenario, even though 16 teams will, in fact, be one-and-done each year.  

Now that Curry has won once, and based on some of the carry-over attention they have received, there may be a belief in Indianapolois that Curry is no longer a one-and-done threat to the NCAA when selected.  As LD pointed out, since RPI has failed to advance three times out of four years, there might NOT be that same feeling about RPI.  So, how do you differentiate your team to give the NCAA a feeling of probable success for your team, assuming you need that insurance policy.  

Listen, you want your team to roll the dice on going undefeated in the league every year (going for broke if you lose just once in league), then so be it.  WPI's coach (Ed Zaloom) explained eloquently why his team doesn't schedule in such a way (the LL is his team's challenge as WPI just lacks the depth right now to go 9-10 games against teams that pose major threats every week -- and his team needs local media coverage for local recruiting, at least partially explaining the OOC scheduling WPI does).  However, as I always say, if all eight teams of the LL do this, then the LL will NEVER get two at-large bids.  So, this is why scheduling does matter for teams that want to make the playoffs EVERY year but aren't named MUC or U-Dub-Dub.  And this is the point that I think LD supports the most in his own post about RPI - RPI feels it belongs in the Playoffs every year, but its resume isn't such that it is a given that they would make it at 8-1 (6-1 LL) every year.  And I think Pat's gist of things is that Curry now has slightly changed the balance of power with its win vs. Hartwick last year, even if we all can't figure out why that game is being held out as such a tremendous credit to Curry beyond them breaking the NEFC "glass ceiling."

There needs to be some balance of the things that Jonny put forth, yes -- but those things can't easily be quantified come 11/15-11/16 in a conference call.  Ultimately, SoS will get that job done, even though I think the statistical approach the NCAA switched to last year is an analytical mess based on my understanding of college statistics (which the BCS/Bowl Alliance agreed with a decade ago when they dumped the same approach).  But that's another argument for another day.

That's just my two cents (well, keep the change).

- Frank

[labart96]

TGP could believe cost of scheduling games being an issue with Hobart.  Our school/AD is notoriously cheap (ie, no strength coach and our D1 Lax coach was used to park cars during home football games - seriously) b/c our "endowment lags behind our competition."

Given that the Boz probably isn't packing in the stands, TGP would guess that Hobart may actually lose money on its football program - my yearly donations to the program would need to be matched by a lot of other Hobart alums for them to be "making money".

[Frank Rossi]

Frank Id like to hear it.  Even the game where you dont need a bus and overnight stay (-5K?), every home game must not make money at the d3 level right?  This is all I can come up with..

-Officials (7 at $75)- ($500)
-Union cops with 4 foot wooden fishbeater batons (10 at $150) ($1000)
-random guys paid to set up the field on overtime ($1000?)
-food/drink usually goes to some club team anyway
-Guys at the gate collecting tickets ($300)
-Ambulance at the game ($500-$1000?)

Im sure im missing some, but with a few thousand students, and program sales that might not make as much as you think, how is Union going to make money?

Let's assume attendance of 2,000 people, at an average of $4 per person (factoring in freebies in that low $$ number).  $8,000.  The home team gets to subtract their expenses:

Staffing Costs (Press Box, Tickets, Gate, Etc.): ~$1,000 (remember, work studies are often involved)
Security and Ambulances: ~$1,500
Food/Drink:  N/A if done right (should make its own money)
Officials:  $750 (ECAC has a clock operator and official at most games)
Maintenance/Field Equipment:  $1,000
Radio:  Comes out of my pocket for an away game, free for a home game
Players' Equipment (Tape, Laundry, Any broken/ripped equipment):  $1,500
Scouting Costs (Videos/Transmission of Videos - Both teams):  $500

Right there is $6,250, leaving $1,750 for the opposing team's travel, equipment and any hourly help they bring out.  This does not include any profits on programs, souvenirs or any other revenue that can be brought in.  The only other costs that can't be quantified are the costs of extra practices during the week, but conceivably, those are already sunk and part of the budget -- you still practice during a bye week last time I checked.  So, this is why I believe a 10th game, if contracted right by both teams, should be a nullity, if not a small benefit to the teams involved.

- Frank

[Knightstalker]

Now for the week 4 NFL Cheerleaders.

[redswarm81]

So, TGP thinks WPI's strategy is a sound one.  They are working on building their program but a combo of local presence as well as playing more established programs (Union, RPI, etc).

It may be a sound strategy for WPI. RT is trying to use that to justify RPI's schedule, though, and WPI and RPI are not on the same level right now.

no...that's just your interpretation of what RT is trying to say...which is that RT isn't convinced that a school needs to schedule a certain caliber of OOC game to learn something about themselves and produce.

Forgive RT for being presumptuous....., EVERYONE's goal is to be able to take down the D3 standard-bearer...Mount Union.

Here's a simple statement by RT to see who's right using an example based on OOC scheduling....let SJF play MUC this year in an OOC game and RPI can have Utica and Endicott or the Sister's of The Poor...doesn't matter. What matters in 2008 to RT is that he believes that RPI has a better team and will advance farther in the season because the RPI players will find a way to get it done, not because who they did or didn't play OOC.  That's RT's sentiment...just like Frank may have one about Union or TGP may have one about 'Bart.

I think this all started with a discussion of Curry's position in the d3football.com poll, relative to RPI and Hobart especially.

Pat advertises the d3football.com poll as a more objective poll than other polls, such as the AFCA poll.

If d3football.com poll voters analyzed teams' relative strengths as RT describes, d3football.com would have a difficult time claiming that its poll is more objective than the alternatives.

To be sure, there are problems with attempts at pure objective analysis (e.g. is a 30 point loss to Mount Union as big a positive as a 29 point win v. Endicott?), but polls based purely on subjective analyses are more difficult to explain and justify, and are therefore less meaningful to fans.

[Pat Coleman]

Curry is high, but not even IN the Top 25. Gotta have a little perspective here people, somewhere.

BTW, Curry is in the exact same spot in the AFCA poll: fourth among others receiving votes. Want to bet which poll they climb in faster?

And which result makes more sense? One is our poll, one is the AFCA's.

No. 11 St. John Fisher 37, No. 16 Ithaca 6
No. 14 St. John Fisher 37, No. 9 Ithaca 6

[union89]

So, TGP thinks WPI's strategy is a sound one.  They are working on building their program but a combo of local presence as well as playing more established programs (Union, RPI, etc).

It may be a sound strategy for WPI. RT is trying to use that to justify RPI's schedule, though, and WPI and RPI are not on the same level right now.

Agreed.  TGP will admit he's happy that Hobart plays teams like CMU and Dickinson instead of Endicott etc.  

TGP...Here's a question that's bothering me re: Hobart:

I think we've seen over the past couple years scenarios whereby Hobart's 10th game was a difference-maker in what-if scenarios and in reality as to whether they'd receive an at-large bid.  So why in the world did they drop their 10th game?  I know scheduling is usually a few years in advance, but this seems a little disappointing from a LL fan's perspective.  Any insight?

- Frank

Cost.....specifically cost containment for the overall athletic program was Union's reasoning.....could be the same for 'Bart.

I've proven that Union, with a home-and-home series of some quality, would actually expend zero, if not make money, in a revenue-sharing scenario.  To me, the cost answer is a BOC put forth by a lazy person or someone who is trying to shade their real answer with one that sounds good in a sound bite.

Note:  I'm not pinning this answer on you -- I've heard the same answer probably from the same person/people and have never bought into it.

- Frank

The story U89 has heard is that ALL varsity sports took a hit at Union scaling back 1 or 2 games.  Admin. feels that it would have been unfair to take games from some teams, but not others.....hense, everyone lost a little in order to get the athletic budget more in line......

[Frank Rossi]

Curry is high, but not even IN the Top 25. Gotta have a little perspective here people, somewhere.

BTW, Curry is in the exact same spot in the AFCA poll: fourth among others receiving votes. Want to bet which poll they climb in faster?

And which result makes more sense? One is our poll, one is the AFCA's.

No. 11 St. John Fisher 37, No. 16 Ithaca 6
No. 14 St. John Fisher 37, No. 9 Ithaca 6

Here is the classic argument to try to quell a fight, as presented by Mr. Coleman and translated into LD English:

"We may be wrong about Dem Spicy Boyz, but those guys over there... THEY BE EVEN MO' WRONG!"

[Pat Coleman]

I just say I expect the trend on Curry to continue.

[Frank Rossi]

The story U89 has heard is that ALL varsity sports took a hit at Union scaling back 1 or 2 games.  Admin. feels that it would have been unfair to take games from some teams, but not others.....hense, everyone lost a little in order to get the athletic budget more in line......

Again, though, this same argument gets tossed around like a cheap suit all the time -- it's been frequently thrown in my face that other sports at Union take issue with the idea that Football receives the radio coverage that it does on a commercial station with (people who are described by others as being somewhat) professional commentators.  Well, guess what -- it's my money in this case, and I'll direct that money to where I'd like to.  If the school doesn't want it based on such lame reasoning (i.e., cutting off your nose to spite your face), then they get zero at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned.  Granted, this is my last year probably doing this based on my experiences after three weeks of trying to help out for the five year -- and I'm not sure where I'll direct my money for Union after this year, if I choose to at all.

In the same light, if there is no negative/detrimental effect of scheduling a tenth game that could: (a) help exposure of the Union Football program and thus help recruiting in all sports through Union's increased exposure; and (b) give Union a greater chance of achieving NCAA spots every year in Football, which is another revenue-generating experience (or at least is on paper), then that argument by other teams HOLDS NO WATER.  It's a cop-out by a weak leader that would be swayed by such complaints instead of putting together statistics that counter those arguments for all concerned.

- Frank

[Edit:  Maybe I'll redirect my money toward funding any potential shortfall in the budget related to a 10th game in a revenue-sharing agreement with the opponent in a two- or four-year series.  Maybe that's the stipulation I'd put on any potential donation -- no money if no tenth game, assuming the football team and coaches desire such a game.]

['gro]

hey, I've heard of Ithaca!  rank'em  <--- sarcasm


p.s. amen LD on the RPI rant. Personally, I wouldn't care who they played if they would just stop with the one and dones. Or when they lose to a team like SLU then end up beating a decent opponent in the ECACs, what the hell is that about?

this program took a big step when king took over, then another step in 99 getting into the playoffs (yes expansion helped), it's been almost 10 years, time to make another step.