FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

And wasnt the whole sticking point last year about the wording of the whole thing.  Words like "reviewed" seemed to bring subjectivity into it more than you thought it would.

[Frank Rossi]

It hurts them in the fact that the game takes the place of an in region win.  Or two of them for that matter (Utica and Endicott)

Not if it's Game 10, though.

[redswarm81]

I don't think much of the NEFC but Curry is the class of it by leaps and bounds and they deserve votes.  I think it's crazy that a 3-0 Curry has more votes combined than a 3-0 RPI and 3-0 Hobart.  Make statements about their schedules all you want, Curry plays that schedule ALL year, every year. 

It all circles back to last year's playoff results.  It's amazing to see that if they are using historical data, how shortsighted they are, just to go to the last game that a team WON(vs. Hartwick), rather than them losing to Fisher 38-7.  It comes down to the fact that a lot of voters don't really analyze teams and take their 'votes' THAT seriosuly outside of the top 10 or 15, but are comfortable in their voting scheme for 15-25 based soleley on last years results(early on) with an unwillingness to move teams until they lose. 

This raises what I think is the "big picture."  There's no doubt that by historical standards, the NEFC teams simply don't compare well with nearly any AQ conference.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out why.  I mean, look at it from the perspective of the Jonny U 4 level plan for mining success in D-III football:

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program. 
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but . . . .  You need both. 

Level 2
1) Type of school-- The better academic schools will have better programs . . .
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc. 

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, . . .
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles

I can't see why the NEFC--esp. Curry, to use them as an example, isn't filled to overflowing with success.  In Level 1, through 2006 Curry had Steve Nelson, who--especially in the Boston-centric NEFC area, must have been like the sun outshining all other recruiters.  He surely must have been able to out-recruit all others, and he can't have been that bad a coach, since his teams typically ran the table in the NEFC.  Even if he wasn't that great a coach, the NEFC has 16 teams!  There has to be a decent coach or five in such a  crowd.

Furthermore, with 16 teams, there have to be a few teams with the right combination of image and academics to attract quality players.  Surely eastern MA has decent ballplayers.  In fact, it would seem to me that schools such as RPI, Union, Rochester and Hobart must have a tougher time recruiting for their higher academic requirements, than most of the NEFC teams.

We all know the size and athletic ability of D-III football players, especially if you stick to the 80% that fall within the main part of the bell curve.  Plenty of teams win with those players, and win out of their own conferences with such players.

What then is the institutional basis for the lack of success by the NEFC?

[Jonny Utah]

It hurts them in the fact that the game takes the place of an in region win.  Or two of them for that matter (Utica and Endicott)

Not if it's Game 10, though.

Ok.  But they are probably better off playing Fitchburg St. in that 10th game than they are playing Cortland.

But thats where the whole weak scheduling philosphy comes in.  If RPI plays Fitchburg St in that 10th game, they have a 99% chance of improving their in-region w/l percentage.  But if they play Cortland, they have a 50% chance of losing the game, probably hurting their chances heavily for the at large bid.  If they beat Cortland, then they obviously help themselves with most of the at large criteria and really help themselves.  But again, theres that 50% chance of losing that game too.

Im not saying either way is the right way, but I can see how the easy schedule route doesnt hurt them.  And I also agree that for at-large purposes, the 10th game absoutly helps, especially in that 10th game against an easy team.

[Jonny Utah]

I don't think much of the NEFC but Curry is the class of it by leaps and bounds and they deserve votes.  I think it's crazy that a 3-0 Curry has more votes combined than a 3-0 RPI and 3-0 Hobart.  Make statements about their schedules all you want, Curry plays that schedule ALL year, every year. 

It all circles back to last year's playoff results.  It's amazing to see that if they are using historical data, how shortsighted they are, just to go to the last game that a team WON(vs. Hartwick), rather than them losing to Fisher 38-7.  It comes down to the fact that a lot of voters don't really analyze teams and take their 'votes' THAT seriosuly outside of the top 10 or 15, but are comfortable in their voting scheme for 15-25 based soleley on last years results(early on) with an unwillingness to move teams until they lose. 

This raises what I think is the "big picture."  There's no doubt that by historical standards, the NEFC teams simply don't compare well with nearly any AQ conference.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out why.  I mean, look at it from the perspective of the Jonny U 4 level plan for mining success in D-III football:

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program. 
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but . . . .  You need both. 

Level 2
1) Type of school-- The better academic schools will have better programs . . .
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc. 

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, . . .
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles

I can't see why the NEFC--esp. Curry, to use them as an example, isn't filled to overflowing with success.  In Level 1, through 2006 Curry had Steve Nelson, who--especially in the Boston-centric NEFC area, must have been like the sun outshining all other recruiters.  He surely must have been able to out-recruit all others, and he can't have been that bad a coach, since his teams typically ran the table in the NEFC.  Even if he wasn't that great a coach, the NEFC has 16 teams!  There has to be a decent coach or five in such a  crowd.

Furthermore, with 16 teams, there have to be a few teams with the right combination of image and academics to attract quality players.  Surely eastern MA has decent ballplayers.  In fact, it would seem to me that schools such as RPI, Union, Rochester and Hobart must have a tougher time recruiting for their higher academic requirements, than most of the NEFC teams.

We all know the size and athletic ability of D-III football players, especially if you stick to the 80% that fall within the main part of the bell curve.  Plenty of teams win with those players, and win out of their own conferences with such players.

What then is the institutional basis for the lack of success by the NEFC?

RS, look at level 2.

When guys like LD, U89 and I sit down with our guidance counselors in high school and look at what schools might be good fits, Curry and the NEFC schools are not on there (even though MIT was my safety school).

And this is still division 3 football, where most of the players in the country are going to be good students at some pretty good schools.

[union89]

Big win for the BoSox last night.....U89 slept through the whole game, but big win.

[redswarm81]

This raises what I think is the "big picture."  There's no doubt that by historical standards, the NEFC teams simply don't compare well with nearly any AQ conference.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out why.  I mean, look at it from the perspective of the Jonny U 4 level plan for mining success in D-III football:

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program. 
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but . . . .  You need both. 

Level 2
1) Type of school-- The better academic schools will have better programs . . .
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc. 

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, . . .
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles

I can't see why the NEFC--esp. Curry, to use them as an example, isn't filled to overflowing with success.  In Level 1, through 2006 Curry had Steve Nelson, who--especially in the Boston-centric NEFC area, must have been like the sun outshining all other recruiters.  He surely must have been able to out-recruit all others, and he can't have been that bad a coach, since his teams typically ran the table in the NEFC.  Even if he wasn't that great a coach, the NEFC has 16 teams!  There has to be a decent coach or five in such a  crowd.

Furthermore, with 16 teams, there have to be a few teams with the right combination of image and academics to attract quality players.  Surely eastern MA has decent ballplayers.  In fact, it would seem to me that schools such as RPI, Union, Rochester and Hobart must have a tougher time recruiting for their higher academic requirements, than most of the NEFC teams.

We all know the size and athletic ability of D-III football players, especially if you stick to the 80% that fall within the main part of the bell curve.  Plenty of teams win with those players, and win out of their own conferences with such players.

What then is the institutional basis for the lack of success by the NEFC?

RS, look at level 2.

When guys like LD, U89 and I sit down with our guidance counselors in high school and look at what schools might be good fits, Curry and the NEFC schools are not on there (even though MIT was my safety school).

And this is still division 3 football, where most of the players in the country are going to be good students at some pretty good schools.

So the reason that all of the NEFC schools have historically been unable to compete successfully outside their conference is because the smart players go elsewhere?

Maybe my premise is wrong, but I was thinking that higher academic requirements reduced the pool of quality athletes available for recruiting.  Aren't there a lot (I mean a LOT) of good football players who aren't as smart as you and LewDogg, who would be good fits at NEFC schools?

[lewdogg11]

LD11 was successful in the Buffalo Wild Wings 'Blazin' Wing challenge last night.  The challenge is to eat 12 wings with their hottest 'Blazin' hot sauce in under 6 minutes.  No Blue Cheese, No drinks, no napkins.  This sauce didn't taste great but it was hot as hell and they swamped the biggest wings they could find in the stuff.  I actually got a major head rush.  

So anyway, I rifled through about 8 of them in maybe 90 seconds.  Then I hit a bit of a wall.  Felt like I might almost throw up.  Sauce all over me.  I had a crowd of like 30 people watching me in awe.  I ended up finishing at about 4:15.  No too shabby if you ask me.  I won a pretty killer tee-shirt, and more importantly, like 5 people at the bar bought me free drinks.  

Overall, i'ts an experience I would do again if someone challeneged me to it with some cash, because i know it can be beat.  I even tried to enjoy the first 4-5 wings, but it had to turn all business.  I have streams of fire coming out of my butt this morning, but that is expected I suppose.  

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  Anyone with a BWW around you, give it a shot.  It's something you can brag to your kids about some day.

[Jonny Utah]

This raises what I think is the "big picture."  There's no doubt that by historical standards, the NEFC teams simply don't compare well with nearly any AQ conference.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out why.  I mean, look at it from the perspective of the Jonny U 4 level plan for mining success in D-III football:

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program. 
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but . . . .  You need both. 

Level 2
1) Type of school-- The better academic schools will have better programs . . .
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc. 

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, . . .
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles

I can't see why the NEFC--esp. Curry, to use them as an example, isn't filled to overflowing with success.  In Level 1, through 2006 Curry had Steve Nelson, who--especially in the Boston-centric NEFC area, must have been like the sun outshining all other recruiters.  He surely must have been able to out-recruit all others, and he can't have been that bad a coach, since his teams typically ran the table in the NEFC.  Even if he wasn't that great a coach, the NEFC has 16 teams!  There has to be a decent coach or five in such a  crowd.

Furthermore, with 16 teams, there have to be a few teams with the right combination of image and academics to attract quality players.  Surely eastern MA has decent ballplayers.  In fact, it would seem to me that schools such as RPI, Union, Rochester and Hobart must have a tougher time recruiting for their higher academic requirements, than most of the NEFC teams.

We all know the size and athletic ability of D-III football players, especially if you stick to the 80% that fall within the main part of the bell curve.  Plenty of teams win with those players, and win out of their own conferences with such players.

What then is the institutional basis for the lack of success by the NEFC?

RS, look at level 2.

When guys like LD, U89 and I sit down with our guidance counselors in high school and look at what schools might be good fits, Curry and the NEFC schools are not on there (even though MIT was my safety school).

And this is still division 3 football, where most of the players in the country are going to be good students at some pretty good schools.

So the reason that all of the NEFC schools have historically been unable to compete successfully outside their conference is because the smart players go elsewhere?

Maybe my premise is wrong, but I was thinking that higher academic requirements reduced the pool of quality athletes available for recruiting.  Aren't there a lot (I mean a LOT) of good football players who aren't as smart as you and LewDogg, who would be good fits at NEFC schools?

And I never said "smart" players dont go to NEFC schools.  Im just trying to be realistic.  Lets say you are a high school senior with good grades.  You call up the Williams coach and tell him you want to play football there but he tells you that you dont meet the academic requirements, he might tell you to look at Ithaca, another good school with good football, but not as hard with the academic requirements.  On the other hand, the kid that wouldnt be able to get into Williams if he didnt play football, might get into Williams because he is a great football player.  He might have had to go to Ithaca if he were just a "regular student".  Thats a whole other conversation but it still happens in d3 sports.


At d1 the higher academic requirements reduce the pool of quality atheltes, then you have 99.9% of the other athletes looking to go to college and not the NFL.  These are the players that have to place college over football for the most part.  If I was a d1 talent, then I would take the free education at a d1 school, even if that school might not be on par with other d3 schools academically.  You have to take the cash first.

And the facilities are the other factor too.  Ithaca has a nicer campus and student life factor than every single NEFC school.  The football stadium is nice, the facilities are better...I could go on and on about that one.

[Jonny Utah]

LD11 was successful in the Buffalo Wild Wings 'Blazin' Wing challenge last night.  The challenge is to eat 12 wings with their hottest 'Blazin' hot sauce in under 6 minutes.  No Blue Cheese, No drinks, no napkins.  This sauce didn't taste great but it was hot as hell and they swamped the biggest wings they could find in the stuff.  I actually got a major head rush.  

So anyway, I rifled through about 8 of them in maybe 90 seconds.  Then I hit a bit of a wall.  Felt like I might almost throw up.  Sauce all over me.  I had a crowd of like 30 people watching me in awe.  I ended up finishing at about 4:15.  No too shabby if you ask me.  I won a pretty killer tee-shirt, and more importantly, like 5 people at the bar bought me free drinks.  

Overall, i'ts an experience I would do again if someone challeneged me to it with some cash, because i know it can be beat.  I even tried to enjoy the first 4-5 wings, but it had to turn all business.  I have streams of fire coming out of my butt this morning, but that is expected I suppose.  

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  Anyone with a BWW around you, give it a shot.  It's something you can brag to your kids about some day.

LD is the sauce like "daves insanity" sauce hot, or is it just painfull hot?  Id do it for the free drinks....

[lewdogg11]

LD11 was successful in the Buffalo Wild Wings 'Blazin' Wing challenge last night.  The challenge is to eat 12 wings with their hottest 'Blazin' hot sauce in under 6 minutes.  No Blue Cheese, No drinks, no napkins.  This sauce didn't taste great but it was hot as hell and they swamped the biggest wings they could find in the stuff.  I actually got a major head rush.  

So anyway, I rifled through about 8 of them in maybe 90 seconds.  Then I hit a bit of a wall.  Felt like I might almost throw up.  Sauce all over me.  I had a crowd of like 30 people watching me in awe.  I ended up finishing at about 4:15.  No too shabby if you ask me.  I won a pretty killer tee-shirt, and more importantly, like 5 people at the bar bought me free drinks.  

Overall, i'ts an experience I would do again if someone challeneged me to it with some cash, because i know it can be beat.  I even tried to enjoy the first 4-5 wings, but it had to turn all business.  I have streams of fire coming out of my butt this morning, but that is expected I suppose.  

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  Anyone with a BWW around you, give it a shot.  It's something you can brag to your kids about some day.

LD is the sauce like "daves insanity" sauce hot, or is it just painfull hot?  Id do it for the free drinks....

I've had hotter, but ti was pretty damn hot.  This place called Wild Wing Cafe, has this 'Braveheart' sauce which is the hottest i've ever had, but it tastes really good, so now and again i'll get a few and have 1 or 2.  This 'Blazin' sauce was almost powdery because it was so overloaded qith Cayenne.  It tasted medical, not delicious.

[Frank Rossi]

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  Anyone with a BWW around you, give it a shot.  It's something you can brag to your kids about some day.

Assuming that the hot sauce doesn't make you impotent first...

['gro]

Gro has tried the blazin sauce at BWW and you're right it tastes gross.  12 of those is impressive for the heat and taste.

[stimulator]

Seeing how the banter may have moved off the RPI/Curry/Scheduling topic.. (I say solve it all by having Curry open the new stadium..)

and seeing there is some academics/recruiting/acceptance discussion forming..

I wonder if TGP or the Rev can squash or confirm a rumor I have heard several times over the off-season (and recently) re: Hobart and last years team.

Were than any post-season sanctions for alleged eligibility/improper financial aid issues to your knowledge? 

[Pat Coleman]

Part/most of the NEFC issue is lack of full-time coaches and institutional lack of commitment to the program. There are some part-time HEAD coaches in that league, whereas at most schools in Division III there are at least three coaches that are full-time on campus. (Not necessarily full-time football but full-time at the school, which makes them far more available for student-athletes, etc.)

Many NEFC football programs are understaffed compared to the D-III average.