FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

It seems to rank which teams are the best versus which teams deserve to be ranked higher.

Not to sound redundant, but...

Say what?!

No, its like Applachian St and Michigan last year.  

-I thought Michigan was the better team but lost on that given day.  If you had ranked teams that next week, and App. St was actually d1, Michigan would have still been ranked higher, even though they might not have deserved to be ranked higher.  Michigan was the better team, App St upset them, and Michigan should still be ranked higher in the polls.

That is why SJF and not Hartwick is ranked in this poll I assume.  People thought SJF had a bad day.

Or 3 bad days, since the Lambert poll is using overall W/L, not regional.

Well, one really bad day (Hartwick since they arent ranked), and one normal day (since they did better than mabye 90% of the country vs MUC) and a bad day (a good Salsbury team)

[Jonny Utah]

Take off the Ithaca hat for a second and try to objectively rank the three teams that all beat each other. Please show your work. Thanks.

Its close,

But to me, the Ithaca/Hartwick game was no fluke.  The IC/SJF game could not be called a fluke, but it was close for a half, and the SJF/hartwick game was at least close.

The high point differntial in the IC/Hartwick game puts IC over the top in this 3 way tie at the moment.  And it looks like the d3football.com pollsters think the same. 

[gordonmann]

Pat and I both vote in the Lambert poll.  I'm not sure who else does, though I suspect it has heavier New England representation than other national polls (like D3football.com).

Here's my ballot (climbs out on limb next to Pat)...

1) Muhlenberg
2) Wesley
3) Cortland State
4) Washington & Jefferson
5) Delaware Valley
6) Salisbury
7) Ithaca
8) Lycoming
9) RPI
10) Hartwick


Yes, I have Wesley higher than Del Val despite the head-to-head result.  If they play each other 10 times, I think Wes wins 7 or 8 of them.

Like everyone else, I couldn't resolve the St. John Fisher/Ithaca/Hartwick triangle so I tried to focus on other results.  In my mind, Lyco and Salisbury are comparable opponents (good teams playing on the road).  IC beat Lyco and St. John Fisher lost to Salisbury (and an undermanned Salisbury team at that).  

I guess you could make the case that SJF deserves the 10th spot more than Hartwick.  But I like  Hartwick's win over Alfred more than any of SJF's wins.  Plus there's some possibility that Hartwick is actually starting to play some defense ("held" SJF to 28 and AU to 19).

Based on my conversations with people who've seen NESCAC football and other conferences around the country, I don't see a problem with voting them in the Top 10.  As a conference, they are competitive in most other sports.  Just because they won't compete -- and I wish they would -- doesn't mean they can't.  Unfortunately this is an argument that is unlikely to ever be resolved objectively.

[Pat Coleman]

Take off the Ithaca hat for a second and try to objectively rank the three teams that all beat each other. Please show your work. Thanks.

Its close,

But to me, the Ithaca/Hartwick game was no fluke.  The IC/SJF game could not be called a fluke, but it was close for a half, and the SJF/hartwick game was at least close.

The high point differntial in the IC/Hartwick game puts IC over the top in this 3 way tie at the moment.  And it looks like the d3football.com pollsters think the same. 

The high point ratio in the St. John Fisher/Ithaca game (more than 5-to-1) kinda blows your 1.6-to-1 Ithaca/Hartwick game away.

[Frank Rossi]

Based on my conversations with people who've seen NESCAC football and other conferences around the country, I don't see a problem with voting them in the Top 10.  As a conference, they are competitive in most other sports.  Just because they won't compete -- and I wish they would -- doesn't mean they can't.  Unfortunately this is an argument that is unlikely to ever be resolved objectively.

Just to clarify -- when I said "Toss Trinity" earlier, it was meant for playoff purposes only.  I respect the NESCAC teams and their decision, although I agree that it'd be better for all parties if they did compete in the postseason and outside their realm.

[Jonny Utah]

Take off the Ithaca hat for a second and try to objectively rank the three teams that all beat each other. Please show your work. Thanks.

Its close,

But to me, the Ithaca/Hartwick game was no fluke.  The IC/SJF game could not be called a fluke, but it was close for a half, and the SJF/hartwick game was at least close.

The high point differntial in the IC/Hartwick game puts IC over the top in this 3 way tie at the moment.  And it looks like the d3football.com pollsters think the same. 

The high point ratio in the St. John Fisher/Ithaca game (more than 5-to-1) kinda blows your 1.6-to-1 Ithaca/Hartwick game away.

But the IC/SJF game was at least close for a half.  Thats why "ratios" cant always be looked at in all this.

[Frank Rossi]

The IC/SJF game could not be called a fluke, but it was close for a half...

I didn't know this was a criterion for playoff consideration -- Pat, could you please start posting W/L by half in the standings page now?!  I mean, c'mon, it's gotta be a review criterion if it's going to help Ithaca into the playoffs this year!

[Jonny Utah]

The IC/SJF game could not be called a fluke, but it was close for a half...

I didn't know this was a criterion for playoff consideration -- Pat, could you please start posting W/L by half in the standings page now?!  I mean, c'mon, it's gotta be a review criterion if it's going to help Ithaca into the playoffs this year!

Ok Frank, lets just let a computer decide the whole thing.  This BCS thing has been perfect huh?  Im just saying that you have to look at what actually happens in the game sometimes and not just rely on ratios and percentages.

[Pat Coleman]

Games are 60 minutes, not 30. You might find me caring about a garbage TD in the final minute or two but not 31 points in 30 minutes.

I see I even misremembered the final score: 37-6, not 31-6. More than a 6-to-1 ratio.

Not all monkeystomps are created equal.

[Frank Rossi]

The high point differntial in the IC/Hartwick game puts IC over the top in this 3 way tie at the moment. 

But the IC/SJF game was at least close for a half.  Thats why "ratios" cant always be looked at in all this.

Do you actually read your posts for consistency?  I mean, Pat was answering your own "differential" post with a "ratio" comparison.  C'mon, Jonny.  Step away from the Bomber, man.

[Frank Rossi]

Not all monkeystomps are created equal.

+k, Guru.  Great use of the LLPP's own terminology.  We've brainwashed you, finally.

[Frank Rossi]

The IC/SJF game could not be called a fluke, but it was close for a half...

I didn't know this was a criterion for playoff consideration -- Pat, could you please start posting W/L by half in the standings page now?!  I mean, c'mon, it's gotta be a review criterion if it's going to help Ithaca into the playoffs this year!

Ok Frank, lets just let a computer decide the whole thing.  This BCS thing has been perfect huh?  Im just saying that you have to look at what actually happens in the game sometimes and not just rely on ratios and percentages.

According to you, there's just black or white and no grey, JU... And that's bull.  I proposed a tiebreaker solution for people to consider in the E8 that takes a little of wins and losses and a little of SoS into consideration to at least create a scenario whereby some fairness can be injected into the analysis.

You, on the other hand, pride yourself in defending the loophole.  You suggest that because it's possible that an inferior team can slide into the AQ slot, it forces the NCAA to pick the stronger E8 team to get a Pool C slot -- basically hijacking a slot from another deserving team just so that it pads your team's and conference's scenario.  Not only does the E8 tiebreaker suck, but if the rationale you put forward is some reason for keeping it, then I'll place a protest personally to the NCAA.  I doubt that is why the E8 picked the tiebreaker it chose -- I think the home office was just lazy.  Now we all hold our collective breath to see how this plays out and hope they wake up next season.

A one-point game would be something to look at to make sure the game was a hard-fought game, maybe.  An overtime game would be the same.  But there are very few circumstances in which looking at a minute-by-minute recap of the game is going to be fruitful for time, efficiency and/or strength purposes. 

Once you step away from your Ithaca-centric approach here, I'd give you a LOT more credit in your arguments.  Currently, I'm kind of looking at your statements in disbelief.

[Knightstalker]

This is why KS advocates the Steel Cage Death Match between head coaches as a tiebreaker.  It is fair to all involved.

[redswarm81]

ECAC® Lambert Meadowlands Division III Football Poll

1. Cortland State 5-0
1. Muhlenberg 5-0
3. Washington & Jefferson 5-0
4. Delaware Valley 4-1
4. Wesley 3-1
6. Salisbury 5-1
7. Rensselaer 4-0
8. Ithaca 4-1
9. Trinity 4-0
10. St. John Fisher 3-3

Press Release

You guys will love my Lambert ballot, then.

1. Cortland State
2. Delaware Valley
3. Muhlenberg
4. Salisbury
5. Wesley
6. Washington & Jefferson
7. RPI
8. Hartwick
9. St. John Fisher
10. Trinity

Pat and I both vote in the Lambert poll.  I'm not sure who else does, though I suspect it has heavier New England representation than other national polls (like D3football.com).

Here's my ballot (climbs out on limb next to Pat)...

1) Muhlenberg
2) Wesley
3) Cortland State
4) Washington & Jefferson
5) Delaware Valley
6) Salisbury
7) Ithaca
8) Lycoming
9) RPI
10) Hartwick

I'm struck by the Poohbah's (and apparently many other voters') treatment of Muhlenberg relative to teams ranked lower than the Mules in the d3football.com Top 25.

[Garnet]

How come Garnet has come across D3 games on FCS from other regions but never the East?

Any thoughts?