FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

Frank and dllip I usually agree with you guys but I think Hobart is better than RPI. The only way I see RPI winning is with Special Teams. Its a down year for Hobart Special Teams wise and RPI is exceptional.
It took a superhuman effort by Coney for Union to beat Hobart....by 3 points. Hobarts Pass defense is exceptional. and RPI has no running game to brag about. I really think RPI is going to struggle to score points. Unions pass defense has been awful and they really made RPI work (held Robertson 70 yards under his season average). Hobart put up 35 on Union like it was nothing. In fact they missed 3 FG's, so it could have been 44! And the only reason it was that little was because there was only because the game stops after 60 minutes when 1 team has a lead!

Reno -- Name one game this season in which Hobart looked extremely strong, like a team that could go out and beat any opponent with such a performance.  I'll help you out here -- I haven't really seen one.  Even the WPI win had plenty of mistakes for Hobart, making it more of a battle of turnovers and short fields for Hobart more than it was a pure offensive/defensive victory.

As I said, and you didn't address, the Hobart defense is a mismatch against the RPI offense.  The reason Union thrived was because the 3-5-3 they ran allowed more outside penetration so that when Robertson couldn't find a target, his backside was easily exposed for a sack.  Hobart's defense either needs to add some outside power or they're going to be bitten by Robertson all day.

[redswarm81]

#8, #9 and #10 are just pure fugly now in the second East Regional Poll:

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. RPI 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1

A Hobart loss would get Husson (yes, Husson) within one spots of the playoffs, as the MAC representative is not in the top 10 currently, but the Rowan/Montclair loser would drop out (only 6 of these teams will go to the NCAAs, based on 5 conference champions -- including the MAC champion not shown -- and likely 2 Pool C bids).

Actually, even if a Hobart loss bumps Husson to no. 7, the path to playoffs is different for Husson, since Husson is Pool B.  Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.  I will be curious to see how the Pool B bids are awarded if Huntingdon loses to LaGrange.

Otherwise, if Husson doesn't get a Pool B bid, it will then be evaluated against a lot of one-loss Pool C candidates, and if the Selection Committee goes to the secondary criteria, Husson's likely toast.

[redswarm81]

Love almost all the dudes on here but never realized so many of you guys are ****ing conservatives.

Liberals are always so tolerant.  No wonder everyone loves liberals so much.

Well then its been 8 years since I celebrated, so I'll celebrate all by my lonesome.

You celebrated 8 years ago, when George W. Bush won?  Why didn't you invite any of us to the celebration?

[Frank Rossi]

#8, #9 and #10 are just pure fugly now in the second East Regional Poll:

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. RPI 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1

A Hobart loss would get Husson (yes, Husson) within one spots of the playoffs, as the MAC representative is not in the top 10 currently, but the Rowan/Montclair loser would drop out (only 6 of these teams will go to the NCAAs, based on 5 conference champions -- including the MAC champion not shown -- and likely 2 Pool C bids).

Actually, even if a Hobart loss bumps Husson to no. 7, the path to playoffs is different for Husson, since Husson is Pool B.  Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.  I will be curious to see how the Pool B bids are awarded if Huntingdon loses to LaGrange.

Otherwise, if Husson doesn't get a Pool B bid, it will then be evaluated against a lot of one-loss Pool C candidates, and if the Selection Committee goes to the secondary criteria, Husson's likely toast.

First off, you should read my post in the East Region Poll topic in which I discuss that there are at least three other Pool B candidates that probably have an advantage over Husson right now.  Second, last I checked, 7-0 Husson (and remember, they are 7-0 in in-region and out-of-region games, since out-of-division games do not generally count) would have the best win/loss percentage in primary and secondary criteria.  Don't discount Husson -- they're appearing as #9 and could be #7 for a reason.  You're acting like these rankings are meaningless, but in essence, they are the present rank-order from which the Committee will start on November 15th.  

[AUPepBand]

#8, #9 and #10 are just pure fugly now in the second East Regional Poll:

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. RPI 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1

A Hobart loss would get Husson (yes, Husson) within one spots of the playoffs, as the MAC representative is not in the top 10 currently, but the Rowan/Montclair loser would drop out (only 6 of these teams will go to the NCAAs, based on 5 conference champions -- including the MAC champion not shown -- and likely 2 Pool C bids).

Actually, even if a Hobart loss bumps Husson to no. 7, the path to playoffs is different for Husson, since Husson is Pool B.  Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.  I will be curious to see how the Pool B bids are awarded if Huntingdon loses to LaGrange.

Otherwise, if Husson doesn't get a Pool B bid, it will then be evaluated against a lot of one-loss Pool C candidates, and if the Selection Committee goes to the secondary criteria, Husson's likely toast.

First off, you should read my post in the East Region Poll topic in which I discuss that there are at least three other Pool B candidates that probably have an advantage over Husson right now.  Second, last I checked, 7-0 Husson (and remember, they are 7-0 in in-region and out-of-region games, since out-of-division games do not generally count) would have the best win/loss percentage in primary and secondary criteria.  Don't discount Husson -- they're appearing as #9 and could be #7 for a reason.  You're acting like these rankings are meaningless, but in essence, they are the present rank-order from which the Committee will start on November 15th.  

They may not be meaningless, but they certainly aren't the gospel.

[redswarm81]

TGP

Love the effort and detail of your preview.  I go back to my earlier key to the game for RPI against Union however....

RPI's DL has played very stout all year. 

Against Union Coney did break one, but the balance of the carries were for very short yardage. 25 carries for 58 yards.  His longest other carry was 8 yards.  Not sure of the caliber of the Union vs. Hobart OL both are very big fact Union may be bigger than H.  Nor for that matter do I want to judge the talent of Coney vs. Marlier/Hobaica (all three are talented backs), but if they want to grind out first downs as you say they will most likely have to mix it up.  I don't see Hobart being able to pound it for multiple first downs per drive on the ground.

Doyle plays very good they have a solid chance.. He struggles it may be hard for the Statesmen to generate enough offense to win.

Duh ... guess the same goes for Robertson. 

I'm telling ya - RPI by 30.  Hobart's LB-led defense isn't going to help matters since it was from the outside and the blind side that Union was able to penetrate to Robertson -- not the inside.  The LBs would be great against the run if RPI had much of one to talk about.  Doyle's numbers last week weren't great, the injuries are not positive for Hobart and their running game has been bland, at best.  While Hobart is a good team, RPI is just plain better and will run circles around Hobart.

RPI wins 45-14.

I really do think your right Frank. I think RPI wins by double digits. I feel Robertson is really going to take charge against Bart. He is going to have time to throw and we all know what happens when that guy has time.

Frank and dllip I usually agree with you guys but I think Hobart is better than RPI. The only way I see RPI winning is with Special Teams. Its a down year for Hobart Special Teams wise and RPI is exceptional.
It took a superhuman effort by Coney for Union to beat Hobart....by 3 points. Hobarts Pass defense is exceptional. and RPI has no running game to brag about. I really think RPI is going to struggle to score points. Unions pass defense has been awful and they really made RPI work (held Robertson 70 yards under his season average). Hobart put up 35 on Union like it was nothing. In fact they missed 3 FG's, so it could have been 44! And the only reason it was that little was because there was only because the game stops after 60 minutes when 1 team has a lead!

This is a circumstance where common opponent analysis makes sense.

Union beat Hobart, using a superhuman effort.
Union lost to RPI in one of the fiercest rivalries in D-III.

Advantage RPI

[Frank Rossi]

#8, #9 and #10 are just pure fugly now in the second East Regional Poll:

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. RPI 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1

A Hobart loss would get Husson (yes, Husson) within one spots of the playoffs, as the MAC representative is not in the top 10 currently, but the Rowan/Montclair loser would drop out (only 6 of these teams will go to the NCAAs, based on 5 conference champions -- including the MAC champion not shown -- and likely 2 Pool C bids).

Actually, even if a Hobart loss bumps Husson to no. 7, the path to playoffs is different for Husson, since Husson is Pool B.  Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.  I will be curious to see how the Pool B bids are awarded if Huntingdon loses to LaGrange.

Otherwise, if Husson doesn't get a Pool B bid, it will then be evaluated against a lot of one-loss Pool C candidates, and if the Selection Committee goes to the secondary criteria, Husson's likely toast.

First off, you should read my post in the East Region Poll topic in which I discuss that there are at least three other Pool B candidates that probably have an advantage over Husson right now.  Second, last I checked, 7-0 Husson (and remember, they are 7-0 in in-region and out-of-region games, since out-of-division games do not generally count) would have the best win/loss percentage in primary and secondary criteria.  Don't discount Husson -- they're appearing as #9 and could be #7 for a reason.  You're acting like these rankings are meaningless, but in essence, they are the present rank-order from which the Committee will start on November 15th.  

They may not be meaningless, but they certainly aren't the gospel.

True -- teams have been known to leapfrog (see Union in 1995, although Steve Bamford had much to do with the reasons for that), but my question here is:  "What team, aside from the Pool A MAC team for which I'm already accounting, can leapfrog to that degree from the outside looking in right now?"  SJF seems to be in the doghouse based on overall W/L and poor performance.  The other problem is that Curry is in between Husson and the 11th team, whoever that might be.  So I can't see these rankings changing dramatically short of losses right now.

[redswarm81]

#8, #9 and #10 are just pure fugly now in the second East Regional Poll:

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. RPI 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1

A Hobart loss would get Husson (yes, Husson) within one spots of the playoffs, as the MAC representative is not in the top 10 currently, but the Rowan/Montclair loser would drop out (only 6 of these teams will go to the NCAAs, based on 5 conference champions -- including the MAC champion not shown -- and likely 2 Pool C bids).

Actually, even if a Hobart loss bumps Husson to no. 7, the path to playoffs is different for Husson, since Husson is Pool B.  Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.  I will be curious to see how the Pool B bids are awarded if Huntingdon loses to LaGrange.

Otherwise, if Husson doesn't get a Pool B bid, it will then be evaluated against a lot of one-loss Pool C candidates, and if the Selection Committee goes to the secondary criteria, Husson's likely toast.

First off, you should read my post in the East Region Poll topic in which I discuss that there are at least three other Pool B candidates that probably have an advantage over Husson right now.

Okay, I'll read it.  I agree that there are at least three other Pool B candidates that probably have an advantage over Husson right now.  That's what I meant by

• Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.

Second, last I checked, 7-0 Husson (and remember, they are 7-0 in in-region and out-of-region games, since out-of-division games do not generally count) would have the best win/loss percentage in primary and secondary criteria.  Don't discount Husson -- they're appearing as #9 and could be #7 for a reason.  You're acting like these rankings are meaningless, but in essence, they are the present rank-order from which the Committee will start on November 15th. 

I think you've misinterpreted what I'm saying.

First, check again. Husson is 6-0 in Region, and you're right, out-of-division games do not generally count.   However, they can be considered in the secondary criteria, which include overall winning percentage (not limited to D-III).

These rankings are certainly not meaningless.  Notice right now that there are six one-loss teams ahead of Husson in the Regional Rankings, including two one-loss teams with no wins v. Regionally Ranked Opponents.  There must be some explanation for that, and I readily admit I don't really know what it is.  It could be their dismal OWP/OOWP--which is an rch higher than both Huntingdon's and LaGrange's.

I also think that the rankings mean very different things for Pool B than they mean for a Pool B leftover being considered for a Pool C bid.  Those Pool C comparisons are going to be exceptionally close, and since they are made across Regions, the common opponent analysis will likely not matter, and to a certain extent OWP/OOWP comparisons are unfair when the two teams being compared competed entirely within separate regions.  However, I suspect wins v. Regionally Ranked Opponents will loom large in Pool C analysis, and I also suspect that most analyses will go to the secondary criteria, where that overall winning percentage could hurt Husson.

My inner cynic figures that the Selection Committee will be looking for an excuse to squeeze unknown quantity Husson out of the tournament, in favor of more well known quantities such as Trinity (TX), or even Hampden-Sydney, if they finish with one loss.

[redswarm81]

#8, #9 and #10 are just pure fugly now in the second East Regional Poll:

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. RPI 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1

A Hobart loss would get Husson (yes, Husson) within one spots of the playoffs, as the MAC representative is not in the top 10 currently, but the Rowan/Montclair loser would drop out (only 6 of these teams will go to the NCAAs, based on 5 conference champions -- including the MAC champion not shown -- and likely 2 Pool C bids).

Actually, even if a Hobart loss bumps Husson to no. 7, the path to playoffs is different for Husson, since Husson is Pool B.  Husson's Pool B competition is d3football.com Top 25 Cinderella Case Western, Huntingdon (with a looming showdown against one-loss Pool B contender LaGrange), unbeaten Northwestern (MN), and 3-1 (in-South Region) Wesley.  I will be curious to see how the Pool B bids are awarded if Huntingdon loses to LaGrange.

Otherwise, if Husson doesn't get a Pool B bid, it will then be evaluated against a lot of one-loss Pool C candidates, and if the Selection Committee goes to the secondary criteria, Husson's likely toast.

First off, you should read my post in the East Region Poll topic in which I discuss that there are at least three other Pool B candidates that probably have an advantage over Husson right now.  Second, last I checked, 7-0 Husson (and remember, they are 7-0 in in-region and out-of-region games, since out-of-division games do not generally count) would have the best win/loss percentage in primary and secondary criteria.  Don't discount Husson -- they're appearing as #9 and could be #7 for a reason.  You're acting like these rankings are meaningless, but in essence, they are the present rank-order from which the Committee will start on November 15th. 

They may not be meaningless, but they certainly aren't the gospel.

Gospel?  Shouldn't we be asking the Rt. Rev about that?   

[labart96]

TGP's LL CHAMPIONSHIP PREVIEW:
Hobart College vs. #20 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

The defending co-champions of the Liberty League, Hobart (6-1, 4-1) and Rensselaer (7-0, 5-0), will meet this Saturday in a winner-take-all game in New York's Capitol District! 

On the line is the undisputed league championship and the accompanying Pool A bid for the NCAA D3 football tournament.  This game takes on added significance (especially to the RPI players, alums and fans) in that Saturday will be the final regular season contest ever played at the fabled '86 Field.  Next season, RPI's football and other athletic teams will move into their newly built multi million dollar "East Campus Athletic Village".  

TGP -- Nice preview, but I have to rain on your parade a bit.  If Hobart beats RPI -- and the next week, RPI beats MMA and ROC beats HOB, then RPI would win the LL outright (with one league loss).

this is what happens when LLPPer's not named Rossi (aka TGP = amateur) attempt to guess the play-off picture (aka Rossi = professional). 

[labart96]

TGP

Love the effort and detail of your preview.  I go back to my earlier key to the game for RPI against Union however....

RPI's DL has played very stout all year.  

Against Union Coney did break one, but the balance of the carries were for very short yardage. 25 carries for 58 yards.  His longest other carry was 8 yards.  Not sure of the caliber of the Union vs. Hobart OL both are very big fact Union may be bigger than H.  Nor for that matter do I want to judge the talent of Coney vs. Marlier/Hobaica (all three are talented backs), but if they want to grind out first downs as you say they will most likely have to mix it up.  I don't see Hobart being able to pound it for multiple first downs per drive on the ground.

Doyle plays very good they have a solid chance.. He struggles it may be hard for the Statesmen to generate enough offense to win.

Duh ... guess the same goes for Robertson.  

thx stim - glad you enjoyed it.  rpi's dl can definitely control this game.  hobart's ol has the ability to be overpowering, but so far they've underperformed in my opinion.  still, 150 yds/game rushing is nothing to sneeze at.  you were being polite, but tgp thinks what you meant to say is that neither hobaica nor marlier are at coney's level.  tgp agrees with this wholeheartedly.  both guys are average (70 yds/game for hobaica and 50 yds game/marlier) and unfortunately neither has shown they can crank out a 100 rushing yard game.

that being said - bart's offense has evolved into more of a passing attack with a rb/fb by committee hand off to keep the d honest approach, so it's not surprising the numbers reflect that.

by "grinding" tgp did not mean to insinuate hobart would just keep handing the ball off.  what tgp meant was just keeping the chains moving by short runs, roll outs, play-action, slant patterns - whatever it takes to KEEP THE RPI OFFENSE OFF THE FIELD. 

tgp doesn't question RPI's DL's "stoutness".  they are clearly the best in the league if opp's only score 12 ppg against them.

still, if bart has a shot - they'll need to solve for this DL and as a bart fan, tgp would like to think our 270 lbers would be able to wear on any team if given 32+ mins of TOP.

[Frank Rossi]

Shouldn't be too frozen, so watch where you step -- those CTs can be a bytch.

Saturday Weather in Troy:  High 59F -- Showers

[labart96]

Reno -- Name one game this season in which Hobart looked extremely strong, like a team that could go out and beat any opponent with such a performance.  I'll help you out here -- I haven't really seen one.  Even the WPI win had plenty of mistakes for Hobart, making it more of a battle of turnovers and short fields for Hobart more than it was a pure offensive/defensive victory.

As I said, and you didn't address, the Hobart defense is a mismatch against the RPI offense.  The reason Union thrived was because the 3-5-3 they ran allowed more outside penetration so that when Robertson couldn't find a target, his backside was easily exposed for a sack.  Hobart's defense either needs to add some outside power or they're going to be bitten by Robertson all day.

Point 1 - Hobart was near flawless in the first half, going up 24-0 against WPI
Point 2 - Hobart did make a few mistakes (1 int, 1 fbl) in the 4th qtr that gave WPI a little life
Point 3 - Hobart dominated the last 10 mins of the 4th qtr
Point 4 - You are right about Hobart's lack of outside defensive power.  All the beef in the Hobart D up front is Aruck.  Ryan can dominate a game (10+ tackles, couple sacks, etc) but to really get in Robertson's way, Lovell is going to need to have a huge game.  Robinson on the other side can play, but he's a smaller guy and he's certainly no Dave Russell.

[labart96]

Shouldn't be too frozen, so watch where you step -- those CTs can be a bytch.

Saturday Weather in Troy:  High 59F -- Showers

btw - tgp thought you said you were in law grad school? 

that looks more like meterology to tgp.   

[lewdogg11]

That's why I asked, "Why are you celebrating"

Every Obama supports response "Change"..... Change??  Can someone get specific for me?  I change stuff all the time, the way I drive to work, the food I eat, the channel on TV..... See, that's specific.

Reg, to me, it's not a change in 'politics'.  Politics will always be politics.  To me, it's a change in people's frame of mind.  It's good for the world.  When was the last time you saw people excited about an election?  People excited to be an American?  People excited about a political speech.  I was first the first time EVER.  The politics won't change, our lives won't change.  The economy will do what the economy does, one way or the other over time.  But this 'change' shows that we are growing as people.  If you have heard some of the ridiculous comments here that make me want to puke, it makes me proud to know who I voted for.  I just hope a couple of these stubborn, arrogant, ignorant people can evolve from their roots, and see the world a little differently in a few years. 

This has been another episode of 'Deep Thoughts', by Jack Handy.