FB: Liberty League

[dlippiel]

SRT I know you don't care but I think I am beginning to like you

[Frank Rossi]

not so quickly...because if Alfred wins... you know put Alfred and Fisher in the ECAC watch...

The best thing for Union would be a Fisher win, a Ithaca win, a UW Stevens Point loss and Huessain some how making it into the tourney

No, he won last week by 5%.  He's a little busy right now.

[dlippiel]

Seems to me many of us are off today for Veterans day. NICE!

[Frank Rossi]

It's amazing what a ten-minute conversation can do regarding your perception of things...

I spoke with Dick Kaiser, the Division III Committee Chair, earlier this morning to schedule him to appear on "In the HuddLLe" this Sunday night at 7:50pm EST.  He accepted the invitation and will discuss the East Region's bracket and the discussion regarding the selection/seeding of Liberty League teams in the NCAA Playoffs that will occur Saturday night.

Mr. Kaiser was very forthcoming during our brief discussion, as we were joking about the task that lays ahead for the Committee -- no doubt, with 13 one-loss teams not leading in their conferences, the Committee's task is daunting with just six Pool C bids.  I learned a lot, and I thought I'd share some of the ideas he presented to me today:

- When I brought up Husson, his reaction was, "Well, they're a two-loss team."  He went on to discuss that the Committee cannot simply stop at Primary Criteria in general when deciding teams for the Football Championships because there are simply not enough games played to allow such a low number of statistics to control the selection.  Stated differently, Secondary Criteria are going to apply just as much and as quickly as Primary Criteria.  In a sport like basketball, in which 30+ games are generally played, the Primary Criteria/Secondary Criteria hierarchy can work.  However, in football, his belief is that they need to enter into a full discussion immediately, even weighing criteria like scores and some subjective standards when looking at Pool B and Pool C teams.  This would explain the treatment of Husson and SJF in the Regional Rankings thus far.

- At the same time, we talked a bit about strength of schedule issues.  He was pretty blunt during this discussion, in terms of stating that strength of schedule -- not just the numbers, but the subjective review of a team's schedule -- is crucial in this process.  Paraphrasing his comments accurately, his reaction was that if a team plays a soft out-of-conference schedule, they're not going to experience an easy selection process.  My point in bringing this up is that we should not underestimate the objective and subjective review of a team's out-of-conference schedule at this point when we consider these issues.

There will be a lot more discussion of this on Sunday night, but I walk away from my brief conversation with Mr. Kaiser feeling that he is truly on top of the situation (he spit out a good number of stats about the number of teams in line for consideration and the task the Committee faces) and wants to give fair treatment to these teams both objectively and subjectively (since the objective numbers are not comprehensive enough to allow for full faith and credit with just 7-10 regional games played).

If I were involved, I'd mention to der Kaiser that the NCAA Selection Criteria could easily be written to remove the distinction between Primary Criteria and Secondary Criteria--however, those words "primary" and "secondary" are in there.   I'm sorry to see the meaning of those words dismissed so quickly.

I'd also point out that the Secondary Criteria specifically distinguish in-Division record from overall record.  Ultimately, overall record (including v. non-Div. III competition) can be considered in the Secondary criteria, but Husson's 1.000 in-Division winning percentage must be considered separately from their overall record, and I don't see how that can possibly hurt Husson in the secondary criteria.

How exactly does one measure "fairness" in subjective considerations?   Husson's undefeated in-Region and in-Division, and they're a completely unknown quantity--except to the seven teams that they've beaten.  If I downgrade Husson because I don't know anything about them, am I being fair to them?  Do I really know any less about 7-0 in-Region/in-Division Husson than I know about 6-1 in-Region/6-3 in-Division St. John Fisher, who has behaved erratically all season (e.g., they eked out 3 point home wins v. woeful Buff St. and disappointing Springfield)?  I get really uncomfortable when teams are selected by subjective criteria--which aren't really criteria at all, they're just feelings.

We may not know much about Husson, but we know enough about Husson's quality of opponents to make some pretty cogent arguments for some subjectivity in the Committee's likely argument.  If you're going to try to argue Husson's case for a playoff slot, I'm all ears.

I thought that OWP/OOWP was supposed to tell us what we need to know about opponents (and opponents' opponents), so that we don't need to rely on subjectivity regarding opponents.

There's not enough information available, according to Mr. Kaiser, to allow them to strictly follow OWP and OOWP without doing their own subjective confirmation of a team's schedule to validate/invalidate the findings.

[PBR...]

1 other thing to consider and pbr has no idea whether true or not as he doesnt follow union recruiting and how players turn out. but pbr has seen several top programs that have 1-2-3 bad classes recruiting wise and what that can do negatively to a program. it can be either not just getting good talent, or what were rated top recruits and kids not progressing or kids leaving either due to academics/family issues/other problems(injury etc). if this strikes a program it can take a number of years to overcome and a program really struggles. not saying this has happened at union, but maybe some of the ones closely aligned w/ the program can add input on that as well.  

[John McGraw]

So how does one "show support"?...that's a subjective statement. RT likens how to turn the U around with the question of how to turn the economy around.  It needs to be done but seems like a daunting and hazy task

But, you can put money into a program and have the team struggle. Just look at RPI's men's ice hockey team right now. I'm sure the program is well funded but the product on the ice has not translated into wins. Sure there's some great players - Helfrich and Polacek, but the team has been floundering in the lower half of the league recently while Union, a school without a great Division I hockey tradition (D-I since the early 90s) has flourished over the last year or so.

[Garnet]

It is nice to see this board get back on track. I was reading post from the last few days and I couldn't help but think the LLPP really sucks the big one now.

Union's last game of the season is Saturday.  It will take a miracle for them to get another game this season.  Thank God the 'discussion' about Union vs. Curry is over.  It is not going to happen. At least not this year.

RT brings up many great points and TGP has most of the answers.  I think the rest of the teams in the region have caught up.

Anyone remember the talk of Union moving up to 1AA back in the mid to late 80s?  

[Senor RedTackle]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

Honest question from an RPI fan to the Union community....

Is it a reasonable statement to say that RPI has taken the mantle from Union as the premier D3 football program in the capital district of NY in terms of 1) on field performance over the last 15 years and 2)commitment shown by the administration to the football program (admissions, financial aid, facilities..ie, the new stadium)??

RT is just as surprised as anyone to see what he considers to be a decline in the Union program from what it was in the 80' and early 90's. The Union that RT played against and was recruited by was the national power Union that was the standard by which RPI set its season. There is such hype and emotion in Troy every year over the Union game...and don't get RT wrong, it will always be a special game but it seems that in the last 4 or 5 years, Hobart has become the team RPI really needs to circle on the schedule as "The Game" in terms of post season implications. RT thinks the LL needs a strong Union and, personally, enjoys the concept of the "3 headed monster" in the LL - RPI, Hobart, and Union. Unfortunately, Union just seems to be inconsistent. Yes, the U has had some good teams recently but in RT's opinion, they used to be in the same category in the East as an Ithaca...basically, the team that reloads every year and if they aren't in the hunt for the NCAAs, it's a disappointment.

What do the Union fans think the issue is??

Nice SRT and I agree with you. Everyone knows how I am not a fan of the engineers but I have to agree with you here. RPI has taken the gauntlet and run with it. Over the last four years as a U fan I have gone into the game believing that we were the underdog team and in a way program. Also some very good points about the reloading versus rebuilding. Union seems to have always reloaded and was just a power house period. Even when we have had some great QB's and players (which we clearly have had in the past five years) where have the Dan Stewart caliber players gone? I don't know the answer like I stated earlier. I know Union considers itself a "NESCAC" school at heart and will not allow its reputation to be anything less. I also agree that academics are the most important but we have showed we can do both, until recently. RPI deserves all the credit in the world for taking the lead in the capital district as the premier D3 team. What pisses me off about RPI is that to me, they are so close to blowing up and becoming even more. Yet they continue to seem content with a weak OOC and not challenging themselves to take the next step. I relaly think they have the potential to do so. Anyway SRT I think you are right on here.

RT remembers the Union teams of late 80's to early 90s and no question, they were stacked every year....the Brett Russ's and Gene Ray's of the world into Lainez, Craig Mosia (sp?), Chris Irving, Kojo Attah, Brad Duffy, etc....it just seems like the U doesn't get those caliber of players any more. Granted, RT was younger and maybe those guys got the benefit of the doubt w/ RT because of the era. Coney seems to be in that mold but they had to go to Florida for that! RTs humble opinion is that RPI has seemed to own more of the balance sheet on "marquee" names in the last 10 years...Dan Cole, Flynn Cochrane, Jon Branche, Jimmy Robertson, etc.....U had Marotti, Angiletta, Arcidiacano and had a nice run with those guys but it just "feels" like RPI is getting deeper talent.

TGP makes a nice point....the east is getting better. Also, while Union may liken itself to the NESCAC, they still are part of a group of U.NY schools recruiting an overlapping pool of recruits. RT would put in that recruiting mix RPI, Hobart, UR, SJF, IC, Hartwick.....maybe even Alfred in a stretch. Way back in the mid to late 80's, the East was a 2 horse race in U.NY - Ithaca and Union (at least as far as "academically oriented" schools are concerned). The world has changed since the 90s....lots more parity. However, the expansion to a 32 team field and an AQ for the LL has helped. From RT's perspective, it's a heck of a lot easier to make the NCAAs then it was when RT was running around Troy from 1990-94. In this present format, RT thinks that RPI would have made it as an at large 1 or 2 years...for example, take RT's 5th year, 1994 or even 1993

1994
Overall Record: 7-2-0 (235-139)
Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 17 Coast Guard W 28-17 New London
Sep. 24 Kean W 9-12% Troy ....Kean was ranked #1 in the east region and we lost by 3 but had oppty's to win
Oct. 1 WPI W 21-14 Troy
Oct. 8 Siena W 34-7 Colonie
Oct. 15 Union L 8-23 Schenectady ...... 10-8 at half. About 8000 people at that game. Tough 2nd half
Oct. 22 Hartwick W 30-24 Troy
Oct. 29 St. John Fisher W 25-15 Troy
Nov. 5 St. Lawrence W 41-7 Troy
Nov. 12 Hobart W 41-20 Geneva

hell, this is a pretty bad-azz schedule. You've got an NJAC top dog that year and, what is now E8 (SJF and Wick). The only patsy was Siena. Seems to be a tougher schedule then today but who knows....

This team didn't even get an ECAC bid! Some stiff comp back in the day.

This was kind of a fun exercise, actually. For giggles, go to this site http://www.augenblick.org/rpi/f_05yr.html and look at RPI's results from 1992-1999. There's at least 2 teams in there prior to 1999 (RPI's first NCCA appearance) that could've, in RT's opion, gone to the NCAA's in today's format and done some damage.

[Senor RedTackle]

So how does one "show support"?...that's a subjective statement. RT likens how to turn the U around with the question of how to turn the economy around.  It needs to be done but seems like a daunting and hazy task

But, you can put money into a program and have the team struggle. Just look at RPI's men's ice hockey team right now. I'm sure the program is well funded but the product on the ice has not translated into wins. Sure there's some great players - Helfrich and Polacek, but the team has been floundering in the lower half of the league recently while Union, a school without a great Division I hockey tradition (D-I since the early 90s) has flourished over the last year or so.

Lo and behold, a Johnnie Mac sighting....and talking hockey to boot!! The voice of Cornell Hockey has spoken!!

good to here from you, my baseball radio partner (and also lightning delayed FB partner)

[Frank Rossi]

I think if you look at on the field performance, Union has pretty much stayed even with RPI, with no clear winner, though RPI has clearly been more consistent on a WL record basis (but that may be a function of schedule).  And I'm with U89--the sky's not falling.  I think Union will continue to stay even with RPI, based on great alumni support and coaching, and continue to make an NCAA run about once a cycle.  I think we are right on schedule for our next great team next year.

But, if you look at program commitment, RPI is clearly out ahead.  Other than the stadium upgrade--which the administration was actually disgruntled with when Union supporters simply got together on their own to give money for that express purposes--the program has gotten less and less support, beginning with an AD early in the decade who cannibalized all athletics for the sake of the hockey program, followed by another AD that supported a broader array of programs but again at football's expense.  Although he did not go to a Stagg bowl, Audino was actually more consistently successul during the Sakala (Union former, and fantastic, AD) years that Bagnoli.

With that said, I actually do not think that it the $ support that matters most, but the college and athletic department's commitment to football (and other sports) in the admissions process.  This is clearly a vastly different game for Union than it was in the 90s (and a different planet from the 80s).  Union is a very, very small school, where 30 recruits are actually statistically significant, and there is simply no support for anything help to the sports program that would drive down the SAT/ACT averages.  The one expection to this was a year under Belmonte where they put in a Penn-style admissions system (with different bands) and the result a few years later was the stellar 2005 team.

Now, I am NOT saying that RPI has looser standards, but they certainly have a lot more room in a larger class size to look past the numbers for potential recruits and recognize (absolutely rightly) that a kid may have more to offer the campus community than a sparkly SAT score.

To me, as a loyal Union guy, I find the trend sad even beyond the football field.  That kind of an admissions approach tends to look past all the non-number factors that make a kid great on campus and succesful after college. It's not a coincidence that Union hasn't been able to find a student in 10 years interested in broadcasting a football game, because that's precisely the kind of interesting kid that you'd have to read below the SAT scores to identify and admit.  (They just got luck with Rossi--his SAT scores were stellar, I'm sure.  )

Ummmm... They were OK

Here's the problem -- football at Union every year involves about 7% of the incoming freshman class.  That's no small number.  Yet, when I ask how frequently the coaching staff has been able to discuss their issues and ideas for a more streamlined system with Admissions so that football is not wasting money on recruiting (so they can afford a tenth game or ECAC games in the future), the answer is pretty much that there has been no communication ALLOWED.

Audino is a great recruiter -- he was a trailblazer in the Florida, New Orleans and other areas before schools like RPI even considered such areas.  He still finds some prize assets in kids across the country -- but he has his hands tied from my point of view.  As an alum, I've offered money to his recruiting efforts if he needed an extra Florida trip to help fill up the roster, etc. -- but there's a problem there since that type of scenario is easily avoided with COMMUNICATION.  He deals with 1/14th of the freshman class, and gets no access to discuss these issues except for a "liaison" to admissions?  There's no need for a liaison when he is that intricately involved -- or at least, the liaison should be a secondary layer of communication for the less-important issues.

Here's the biggest problem that I think is happening, and Unionfan touched on it:  Admissions is not giving any decent amount of resume boost to prospective freshmen who play football in high school.  That sort of extracurricular commitment by the student is supposed to allow for a subjectivity that more often than not, especially if a long-time staff member like Audino recommends it, allows for the admission of that player.  Remember, the football program is not aiming to fill the school with 99 stud football players.  They are attempting to find some game changers at certain positions and to REFILL those positions as they need to.  The football program knows what they need on the field and has frequently found great prospective players for those slots.  However, between the lack of communication with Admissions and the financial aid packages coming back pretty barebones compared to the packages that Hobart and RPI offer the same student (which would mean that Union's financial aid is missing something or not maximizing their packages), Union ends up rolling snake-eyes too often.

It's not rocket science, but it's pretty clear that someone is trying to turn it into rocket science -- and to place those rockets on a men's hockey program that has never won a playoff round and a women's hockey program that is still looking for its first win this season.  Money well spent, if you ask me (/sarcasm ends here).  Money isn't the only resource at issue here -- it's also a control issue and a communication issue.  There's truly no need for this type of environment.  None.

[Edit:  Let me be fully honest here.  I wouldn't have gotten into Harvard Law School had Harvard used the same criteria that Union is currently using when evaluating the worth of geographic diversity and extracurriculars in an applicant's resume.  I had the lowest LSAT score in my graduating class at Harvard, I believe, but I did just fine there.  Sometimes it takes a commitment to find well-rounded students that will work twice as hard once at the school to make their entry to the institution look like the right decision.  If Harvard Law School can look past an ugly number to see the forest for the trees in my case, then why can't Union do the same in the case of its applicant pool?]

[Frank Rossi]

It is nice to see this board get back on track. I was reading post from the last few days and I couldn't help but think the LLPP really sucks the big one now.

Union's last game of the season is Saturday.  It will take a miracle for them to get another game this season.  Thank God the 'discussion' about Union vs. Curry is over.  It is not going to happen. At least not this year.

RT brings up many great points and TGP has most of the answers.  I think the rest of the teams in the region have caught up.

Anyone remember the talk of Union moving up to 1AA back in the mid to late 80s?  

Miracles aren't 75% chances, by definition, Garnet.  They actually have a decent shot of the ECAC game if they win.  It's more a question of figuring out how two Pool B/C teams make their way into the playoffs from the ECAC Northwest/Northeast regions.  Kean can beat Montclair.  Ithaca can beat Cortland.  Ithaca could still get consideration if Cortland beats Ithaca.  Husson could still garner some level of consideration if any Pool B teams lose this weekend unexpectedly.  It's not a miracle scenario -- and these were just the games that affect Pool C that are being played in the East Region -- there are games in other regions that are important, too.

[dlippiel]

I think if you look at on the field performance, Union has pretty much stayed even with RPI, with no clear winner, though RPI has clearly been more consistent on a WL record basis (but that may be a function of schedule).  And I'm with U89--the sky's not falling.  I think Union will continue to stay even with RPI, based on great alumni support and coaching, and continue to make an NCAA run about once a cycle.  I think we are right on schedule for our next great team next year.

But, if you look at program commitment, RPI is clearly out ahead.  Other than the stadium upgrade--which the administration was actually disgruntled with when Union supporters simply got together on their own to give money for that express purposes--the program has gotten less and less support, beginning with an AD early in the decade who cannibalized all athletics for the sake of the hockey program, followed by another AD that supported a broader array of programs but again at football's expense.  Although he did not go to a Stagg bowl, Audino was actually more consistently successul during the Sakala (Union former, and fantastic, AD) years that Bagnoli.

With that said, I actually do not think that it the $ support that matters most, but the college and athletic department's commitment to football (and other sports) in the admissions process.  This is clearly a vastly different game for Union than it was in the 90s (and a different planet from the 80s).  Union is a very, very small school, where 30 recruits are actually statistically significant, and there is simply no support for anything help to the sports program that would drive down the SAT/ACT averages.  The one expection to this was a year under Belmonte where they put in a Penn-style admissions system (with different bands) and the result a few years later was the stellar 2005 team.

Now, I am NOT saying that RPI has looser standards, but they certainly have a lot more room in a larger class size to look past the numbers for potential recruits and recognize (absolutely rightly) that a kid may have more to offer the campus community than a sparkly SAT score.

To me, as a loyal Union guy, I find the trend sad even beyond the football field.  That kind of an admissions approach tends to look past all the non-number factors that make a kid great on campus and succesful after college. It's not a coincidence that Union hasn't been able to find a student in 10 years interested in broadcasting a football game, because that's precisely the kind of interesting kid that you'd have to read below the SAT scores to identify and admit.  (They just got luck with Rossi--his SAT scores were stellar, I'm sure.  )

Ummmm... They were OK

Here's the problem -- football at Union every year involves about 7% of the incoming freshman class.  That's no small number.  Yet, when I ask how frequently the coaching staff has been able to discuss their issues and ideas for a more streamlined system with Admissions so that football is not wasting money on recruiting (so they can afford a tenth game or ECAC games in the future), the answer is pretty much that there has been no communication ALLOWED.

Audino is a great recruiter -- he was a trailblazer in the Florida, New Orleans and other areas before schools like RPI even considered such areas.  He still finds some prize assets in kids across the country -- but he has his hands tied from my point of view.  As an alum, I've offered money to his recruiting efforts if he needed an extra Florida trip to help fill up the roster, etc. -- but there's a problem there since that type of scenario is easily avoided with COMMUNICATION.  He deals with 1/14th of the freshman class, and gets no access to discuss these issues except for a "liaison" to admissions?  There's no need for a liaison when he is that intricately involved -- or at least, the liaison should be a secondary layer of communication for the less-important issues.

Here's the biggest problem that I think is happening, and Unionfan touched on it:  Admissions is not giving any decent amount of resume boost to prospective freshmen who play football in high school.  That sort of extracurricular commitment by the student is supposed to allow for a subjectivity that more often than not, especially if a long-time staff member like Audino recommends it, allows for the admission of that player.  Remember, the football program is not aiming to fill the school with 99 stud football players.  They are attempting to find some game changers at certain positions and to REFILL those positions as they need to.  The football program knows what they need on the field and has frequently found great prospective players for those slots.  However, between the lack of communication with Admissions and the financial aid packages coming back pretty barebones compared to the packages that Hobart and RPI offer the same student (which would mean that Union's financial aid is missing something or not maximizing their packages), Union ends up rolling snake-eyes too often.

It's not rocket science, but it's pretty clear that someone is trying to turn it into rocket science -- and to place those rockets on a men's hockey program that has never won a playoff round and a women's hockey program that is still looking for its first win this season.  Money well spent, if you ask me (/sarcasm ends here).  Money isn't the only resource at issue here -- it's also a control issue and a communication issue.  There's truly no need for this type of environment.  None.

Well said Frank but what can be done about this? I know this school can be incredibly stubborn in the admissions area. Is there anything that can change? I would be very curious to hear Audino's thoughts on this. If this is the case it must be very frustrating for him year in and year out. This administration always seems to make boneheaded decisions. As a hockey fan also (heart will always be with the football team though) many ask how the hell U could go to division 1, expect to be successful, yet not do the things everyone knows need to be done to be successful. How can you compete without full athletic scholarships. **** the hockey team doesn't even have a ****ing band? I don't know this school can really piss me off some times.

[Senor RedTackle]

I think if you look at on the field performance, Union has pretty much stayed even with RPI, with no clear winner, though RPI has clearly been more consistent on a WL record basis (but that may be a function of schedule). 

Since 2001.....RPI 5 Wins, Union 3 Wins

2001 Oct. 13   RPI*   W 32-29   Troy
2001 Oct. 12   Union*   W14-32   Schenectady
2003 Oct. 11   RPI*   W 33-7   Troy
2004 Nov. 13   Union*   W 13-18   Troy
2005 Nov. 12   Union*   W 42-49   Schenectady
2006 Nov. 11   RPI*   W 24-19   Troy
2007 Nov. 10   RPI*   W 20-14   Schenectady

2008 Nov 1   RPI   W25-12   Troy

[bigdvs]

unionfan and frank covered what bigdvs had to add,


bigdvs would ask FR though is Tom McClaughlin helping with this or is he trying to not appear biased towards football and doing to little? He would seem to be where Audino should have some leverage with him being a former player and a coach on Audino's staff for the 96-97 seasons.

[Senor RedTackle]

It is nice to see this board get back on track. I was reading post from the last few days and I couldn't help but think the LLPP really sucks the big one now.

Union's last game of the season is Saturday.  It will take a miracle for them to get another game this season.  Thank God the 'discussion' about Union vs. Curry is over.  It is not going to happen. At least not this year.

RT brings up many great points and TGP has most of the answers.  I think the rest of the teams in the region have caught up.

Anyone remember the talk of Union moving up to 1AA back in the mid to late 80s?  

Miracles aren't 75% chances, by definition, Garnet.  They actually have a decent shot of the ECAC game if they win.  It's more a question of figuring out how two Pool B/C teams make their way into the playoffs from the ECAC Northwest/Northeast regions.  Kean can beat Montclair.  Ithaca can beat Cortland.  Ithaca could still get consideration if Cortland beats Ithaca.  Husson could still garner some level of consideration if any Pool B teams lose this weekend unexpectedly.  It's not a miracle scenario -- and these were just the games that affect Pool C that are being played in the East Region -- there are games in other regions that are important, too.

come on Frank, you know you'd rather root for a Cortland win (and a SJF win) because that scenario likely has RPI heading to Alliance as an 8 seed to face #1 MUC