World Cup and European leagues

[foul_language]

I like the substitution without being penalized as a substitution for a REAL injury, and I suspect players will stay honest (not diving just to bring on fresh legs), because they usually want to play.

I thought dangerous play had to be from behind; tackles from the front or side weren't labelled 'dangerous' even though they could inflict some serious pain and/or damage. Am I off?

[ScotsFan]

The bottom line was that the US came up a goal short.  Even if the ref hadn't called the penalty, we would still not have made it.

This is true, but IMO, the game would have been much different if the US goes into the half tied.  They were forced to press the entire 2nd half and it really took them out of their game.

In regards to the bogus PK call, had Bocanegra just cleard the ball out of bounds instead of vollying the ball straight up and then losing the ensuing header, Ghana would have had no shot at drawing that phantom call in the first place!

In a sport where its standard practice to push the ball out of bounds when a player is hurt, you would think they'd avoid abusing the gentlemenly play by diving all over the place.

The refs do make judgement calls in terms of whether or not they feel a player is really hurt or faking an injury to stall.  I saw this in one of the earlier games (I can't remember which one) but the ref basically waved play on and kept signalling the faker to get up and play on.  I know is suppsedly "gentlemenly" to kick the ball out when an opposing player is down, but when you need 2 goals and have less than 15 minutes and the opposing players are constanly flopping, I say, let them flop and take it to them with a man down.  Maybe that will teach them not to flop!

I also thought that the refs were supposed to be tougher on callling out players for diving.  I have seen no evidence of that.

Normally, you would be hard-pressed to place a lot of blame on the final outcome of any game in any sport on officiating.  But in these last 2 US matches, it's hard not to.  I just think it's too bad that you wait 4 years for this build up of the World Cup and it comes to a crashing halt thanks to a card happy ref that used to be on the take in the Venezuelan league and one horrible PK call.  

The US put themselves in that position though when they came out and laid an egg vs. the Czechs.  Had they at least shown up for that game, this World Cup might still be going for them.  As a diehard Cubs and Indians fan, I know the saying well, only as a  soccer fan it's, "There's always 4 years from now... "

[ScotsFan]

Just thought I'd add that I too will continue to follow the WC and I will now be cheering hard for England!  Wooster's head soccer coach is English and he's a good guy, so The Three Lions will have my support the rest of the way!  GO ENGLAND!!!

[Pistol Pete]

I'm no soccer expert, but having watched all three U.S. matches, these were my impressions:

1.  Give credit to Ghana.  They were the better team today, and I wouldn't write them off against Brazil, if that's their next match.

2.  The U.S. squad, across all three games, seemed to lack both quickness and speed.  Especially against Ghana, the opponents seemed always to get to the ball or the key spot first.

3.  I was underwhelmed by the skill levels of the U.S. players, compared to those of every team they played.  In particular, the U.S. always came up short in the "red zone" -- either the service passes were inaccurate, or on the rare occasions (other than Beasley's great pass after a defensive lapse by Ghana) when the pass was on the money, the U.S. couldn't make the play to capitalize.

4.  Team Golden Boy Landon Donovan didn't play -- at least in these games -- like a guy who is supposed to be leading his team at this level of competition.  He didn't play much when he was on a German team, and made comments suggesting either anti-American prejudice or an animus against the U.S. World Cup team, but maybe there's a simpler explanation...

I do think, though, that the team probably was good enough to advance in an easier group, and I expect the U.S. to be better in four years.

[Greek Tragedy]

I am like most of you. 

Change the rule that stops play when a player goes down.  Play on around him.  One attendant may go to him.  In the meantime, the teams play on and they are like the referee, just part of the playing pitch.

I don't think there is an actual rule that says stop play when a player goes down.  The opposing team just kicks the ball out, one of those unwritten rules of soccer.  The ref does have the discretion to blow the play dead if he feels the injury is serious.

In an English Premier League game, that happened.  Two Arsenal players basically took each other out, one layed on the ground for sometime.  Tottenham continued play and scored.  They didn't hear the end of it.  But, the ref didn't blow the whistle dead and since the Arsenal players took each other out, Tottenham felt they weren't obligated to kick the ball out.

Another contraversy involving Arsenal, ironically, happened during an FA Cup game vs [I forgot].  An opposing player got hurt so that team kicked the ball out.  Arsenal's throw.  Instead of giving the ball back, they threw it in and scored right away!  They felt bad enough after the "miscommunication" that I believe they actually scored on themselves purposely...thus resulting in a replay, which Arsenal went on to win.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

1.  Give credit to Ghana.  They were the better team today, and I wouldn't write them off against Brazil, if that's their next match.

I would have totally agreed until watching Brazil play this afternoon.  They've finally gotten on form and will once again be the favorites going into knock-out play.

2.  The U.S. squad, across all three games, seemed to lack both quickness and speed.  Especially against Ghana, the opponents seemed always to get to the ball or the key spot first.

I think this is very true.  I'm not sure if replacing Arena is the answer, but we need to play differently.  Guys like Dempsey and Johnson who have not gotten much run, need to be in the game more.  Donovan and Beasley came up so early they've missed out on the creativity and aggressiveness that this "next generation" in bringing.  It's wierd to talk about it that way since they are all about the same age, but those guys look like the traditional US soccer player and not the future as they were dubbed four years ago.

3.  I was underwhelmed by the skill levels of the U.S. players, compared to those of every team they played.  In particular, the U.S. always came up short in the "red zone" -- either the service passes were inaccurate, or on the rare occasions (other than Beasley's great pass after a defensive lapse by Ghana) when the pass was on the money, the U.S. couldn't make the play to capitalize.

Again, our player development isn't lacking, but our coaching strategies may be.  We obviously don't have the ability to compete for World Cup titles yet, but we should have been able to put on a better show than this.  Hopefully four years in Europe can do a lot for Convey and Onyewu (who's going to get a sweet transfer this summer... guaranteed) and the continual development of the young guys will progress.  We have some really great talent on the under 20 side.

4.  Team Golden Boy Landon Donovan didn't play -- at least in these games -- like a guy who is supposed to be leading his team at this level of competition.  He didn't play much when he was on a German team, and made comments suggesting either anti-American prejudice or an animus against the U.S. World Cup team, but maybe there's a simpler explanation...

We need guys in Europe badly.  I don't care what anyone says: its crazy for Donovan to be in the States, or at least, if he does stay in MLS, he needs to understand that his starting spot in midfield is not secure.

[mybleedinghands]

[

4.  Team Golden Boy Landon Donovan didn't play -- at least in these games -- like a guy who is supposed to be leading his team at this level of competition.  He didn't play much when he was on a German team, and made comments suggesting either anti-American prejudice or an animus against the U.S. World Cup team, but maybe there's a simpler explanation...

We need guys in Europe badly.  I don't care what anyone says: its crazy for Donovan to be in the States, or at least, if he does stay in MLS, he needs to understand that his starting spot in midfield is not secure.

I was jsut watching around the horn and bill plaschke brought up a point ath i thought was pretty good. he basically said that the reason the international basketball teams are getting better is because they are playing overseas in the NBA, playing against the best talent in the world. then he basically went on to say that the US will never be any good at soccer until our players do the same.

another point he brought up was teh lack of diversity on the team. he basically said where are all the asian-americans, mexicans, etc? this country is a melting pot of cultures yet everyone looks the same (other than a couple african-americans). so i guess his point was that the team needs to look like its more than just composed of a bunch of white guys who grew up in white suburbia with soccer moms.

[cawcdad]

Ghana played well and had a great trapping defense in the first half. Everytime a U.S. player had the ball, especially near the sideline there were three Ghana players quickly surrounding him. This coupled with the fact that the U.S. seemed to react very slowly to this kept them from doing much in the first half. In the second half the U.S. passes were quicker but seemed to be very much off the mark.

In the Italy game and in the Ghana game, when we bring in an extra striker and press forward, the U.S. can dominate games. I realize that many times the other team is hanging back, but I have always felt that the Americans play too defensive a game and need to press the attack more, early in the game.

WOW, that last 20 minutes of the Australia-Croatia game was something else. I'm still catching my breath.  

[Pistol Pete]

another point he brought up was teh lack of diversity on the team. he basically said where are all the asian-americans, mexicans, etc? this country is a melting pot of cultures yet everyone looks the same (other than a couple african-americans). so i guess his point was that the team needs to look like its more than just composed of a bunch of white guys who grew up in white suburbia with soccer moms.

[Pistol Pete]

Sorry -- blew the quote function.

In response to Scottie, I'm not sure I agree about a lack of "diversity" on the U.S. team.  Pope, Beasley, Johnson, Onyewu, Reyna...  I'm not sure how many World Cup teams are MORE diverse.

I do agree with you, though, on the need for all of these guys to get more top-flight international competition.  You don't become a better tennis player by only playing guys at or below your current level.

[foul_language]

I think there's something to be said for the relatively brief history of soccer in this country--not that it hasn't been played here long enough, but not enough people have played it for long enough. We haven't absorbed the game; we don't grow up playing soccer, watching soccer, living and breathing soccer. I suspect it will take at least another generation before the United States can compete on a resepctable level internationally. We're too slow, too calculated, too unnatural. We don't sense the game, yet. Maybe instead of piecing together a team from good players from several teams, we need to get the best team and groom it for play. Part of the game is knowing where your teammates are likely to be in a given situation. The United States just isn't that smooth.

Of course, other countries piece their teams together, but they already have absorbed the game so well, they seem to understand what to do and what others are supposed to do.

Once the kids who grew up playing soccer get around to coaching kids who are growing up playing soccer and are the children of kids who grew up playing soccer, things may improve. I don't feel that bad about being the sloppy team, though. I'm not that crazy about the U.S. dominating everything. I even enjoy seeing the Japanese whup us at baseball. Or the Puerto Ricans. The U.S. team qualified; that's a great start. We're out there, we're taking our lumps. Let's hope we can translate lumps into improvement. We've got two years before qualifying starts again.

[mybleedinghands]

Sorry -- blew the quote function.

In response to Scottie, I'm not sure I agree about a lack of "diversity" on the U.S. team.  Pope, Beasley, Johnson, Onyewu, Reyna...  I'm not sure how many World Cup teams are MORE diverse.

I do agree with you, though, on the need for all of these guys to get more top-flight international competition.  You don't become a better tennis player by only playing guys at or below your current level.

sure we may be diverse than most other teams, but look at all the good countries, they aren't diverse to begin with and their guys are getting the job done. the white kids from the suburbs aren't.

[Hoosier Titan]

There was a brief cautionary piece in the Chicago Tribune before the WC matches started.  In essence, it said that the kids who stay with soccer in the U.S. are those who aren't big enough for American football, tall enough for basketball, or fast enough for either.  Thus, we shouldn't expect a great deal of success yet.  I'm not sure it will take another entire generation, however.

With the exception of the Beasley-Dempsey goal (a thing of beauty and, yes, joy), the U.S. just looked way too slow and plodding.  Their play reminded me of the line from Hoosiers:  "How many times are you gonna pass the ball before you shoot?"  You don't always have to pass it the extra time.

I saw no foul on Reyna; he should have cleared the ball.  Yes, there shouldn't have been a penalty kick awarded (that ref was the same one who wanted an Aussie player, Harry Kewell, banned from playing today because after the game the ref said Kewell had cursed at him.  FIFA said the ref was inconsistent and refused the ban.)  So the game should have ended 1-1, which still wouldn't have been enough for the U.S.

Teams still in that I like:  England (who haven't played their best yet), Australia, and Spain
Teams that scare me:  Argentina
Team that don't scare me as much as I thought they would:  Brazil and Italy

[Mr. Ypsi]

Scottie,

I think you are painting with WAY to broad a brush.  I don't know if they are suburban kids, but Eddie Lewis, Brian McBride, and Casey Kellar (and maybe I've overlooked one or two others) played just fine!  (Kellar, in particular, had a few saves against Italy that I'm not certain ANY other keeper would have made.)

foul_language,

I think you've got an excellent point - even for the second-generation soccer kids, it just isn't 'in the bones' yet.  But I think you may be pessimistic - I like our chances of at least the semis by 2010!  Many of the key players SHOULD just be hitting their prime by then, and the next wave (Freddy Adu and comrades) should be ready to contribute.  I'm just sorry that IF that transpires, Kellar, Reyna, and Pope (and apologies to whoever I left out!) will probably not be a part of it.

Hoops Fan,

I'm a big fan of MLS, and would hate to lose some of the key young players, but I agree with you - either make MLS truly MAJOR League Soccer, or encourage Adu and the other rising players to get the h*** out of this country for their futbol!  The national team would be much better off if they all were already familiar with Ronaldinho, Nedved, etc.  Scouting on tape is one thing; actually playing them is another.

[Mr. Ypsi]

There was a brief cautionary piece in the Chicago Tribune before the WC matches started.  In essence, it said that the kids who stay with soccer in the U.S. are those who aren't big enough for American football, tall enough for basketball, or fast enough for either.  Thus, we shouldn't expect a great deal of success yet.  I'm not sure it will take another entire generation, however.

I saw no foul on Reyna; he should have cleared the ball.  Yes, there shouldn't have been a penalty kick awarded (that ref was the same one who wanted an Aussie player, Harry Kewell, banned from playing today because after the game the ref said Kewell had cursed at him.  FIFA said the ref was inconsistent and refused the ban.)  So the game should have ended 1-1, which still wouldn't have been enough for the U.S.

Sorry, I prematurely hit the post button!

The Tribune probably has it about right, but, except for physical 'freaks' like the 6'8" Czech striker, futbol players worldwide would not be well-suited for American football or basketball (except, POSSIBLY, as receivers, db's (and kickers, obviously!) or guards (in bball).  Undoubtedly we do lose a higher percentage of potentially great soccer players than other countries to the higher profile (and higher paying) sports, just because in many of the other countries futbol IS the higher profile (and paying) sport.

I'll try the Draman-Reyna thing one more time, then I'll get off my soapbox.  A straight-ahead knee (accelerating towards full speed) to the side of an opponent's knee strikes me as a good definition of 'dangerous play'.  My experience is that that designation is usually a euphemism for 'high-kick' (at least on the youth soccer game reports I'm familiar with, 'tackle from behind' is a separate category of yellow card).  But if 'front-of-knee to side-of-knee' is not 'dangerous play', what is?  That can end careers!

I want to make it clear that I am not accusing Draman of deliberately injuring Reyna, just that I think he engaged in 'dangerous play'.

Even if you are correct about Draman-Reyna, might not a 1-1 rather than 1-2 halftime score dramatically changed the second half?  (And thanks for the info on the ref trying to ban Kewell - I hadn't heard about that.)