World Cup and European leagues

[foul_language]

You have my permission to pull for Italy

Would that I could, but I can't. So, I won't. Although it would be easier for me to get behind Italy than Brazil, those opportunistic southerners.

Barn-en flambe'

That was a good game (France-Spain), and I pulled for the French (I've had a soft spot for them ever since someone referred to the French as 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys'), so I must be losing my touch. Germany IS still in this thing, right? Sometimes I think perhaps I've dozed off and reawakened in a different Cup year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

This may sound crazy since Brazil won 3-0, but Ghana was the better team today (I have no doubt Brazil is generally the better team, and probably has a better chance to go deep than Ghana would, but TODAY Ghana out-Brazilled Brazil).  The final score was totally misleading - let me elaborate:

Ronaldo's goal was a legitimate thing of beauty, resulting from Ghana's only SERIOUS defensive mistake of the match.  Adriano was clearly offside (the replays were absolutely clear about that); moreover, the man who passed it to Adriano had himself been CLEARLY offside.  For the AR to miss two offsides on the same goal is inexcusable.  Therefore the score should have only been 1-0 rather than 2-0 when the other decisive call came along (79th? minute) - the red card (second yellow) to the Ghanaian player for 'diving' in the box.  Unfortunately this was not replayed a half dozen times (like the 2nd goal), so I'm less certain, but I THINK he WAS actually tripped, rather than taking a dive.  Especially if the score was only 1-0, the difference between a red card (thus Ghana playing the rest of the game down a man) and a PK can hardly be overestimated.  Even at 2-1, if at full strength, Ghana is still very much in it.  Even at 2-0, if at full strength, Ghana still has a prayer.  At 2-0 and down a man, the match ended with that call.  (Brazil's third goal was a sweet one, but only served to make the final score highly misleading.)

Also, Ghana had to play the second half without their coach, who was red carded during halftime for (correctly) protesting Adriano's goal.  Since this occurred out of anyone's sight, I can't say whether or not the red card was justified, but I do know that Ghana's coach was right!

France's winning goal was also dubious, IMO.  It came as a direct result of a free kick following a penalty (and yellow card) against Spain.  Again, there alas were no replays, so I'm not absolutely certain, but I'm fairly sure the penalty was called the wrong way.  The French player pushed down the Spaniard, then fell to the ground holding his face.  The ref bought it, but I saw NO contact with the French face and think he took a dive to cover for his own penalty.  IF things played out the same way as, in fact, they did, Zidane's goal would render the result moot.  But of course, if the score had been 1-1 instead of 2-1, things probably would not have played out the same way.

Both games were hugely enjoyable, but would the refs PLEASE give the Cup back to the players?!

BTW, Grahame L. Jones of the L.A.Times had a column today arguing that the Italy-Australia result was a FIFA-directed conspiracy as a payback to Italy for the FIFA-directed conspiracy of South Korea over Italy in 2002 (where they were eager to keep the home team in as long as possible).  I'm not big on conspiracy theories (never have been, and Oliver Stone ended any temptations I may ever have had in that direction!), but he actually lays out at least a semi-compelling case.  (Sorry I can't provide a link; being a troglodyte, I actually read it on paper! )

[ScotsFan]

Hello again.  Wooster was hammered by Mother Nature yet again and my power has been off since last Thursday (just turned back on last night).  This marks the 3rd power outage at my home of more than 5 days in the last 3 years and all as a result of Mother Nature! 

Anywho, I have missed a lot of soccer action over the past few days and I am thankful that I can get back to following the action live instead of waiting for the results in the paper the following day!  Glad to see the boys from GB still in it, although I didn't get to see their game (and from what I've read in here, I might be glad I missed it)


Another common theme that seems to be coming up more and more is the poor officiating.  FIFA has got some MAJOR work ahead of them to fix these problems of inconsistent and downright horrible (at times) officiating that has been taking place during this World Cup.  People's focus after matches should be on the run of play, not on the terrible officiating.  It seems every game has at least one and sometimes more than one contreversial call by the official and in many intances these bad calls are basically determining the outcome of games?!  Players should be determining the outcomes, not the referees!

Germany is turning out to be an interesting story.  Many, including their own fans were leaving them dead in the water before the Cup.  They were booed off the field by their own fans at the end of the 1st half in a friendly with the US just before the Cup started.  Of course they went on to thrash the US 4-1, but they had some questionable results in some other friendlies leading up to the Cup.  And if this conspiracy theory that Ypsi is bringing up holds any weight, this can do nothing but help the Germans' cause to go far in this Cup!  Not to mention that they are playing some extremely good football at the moment which doesn't hurt either!

Lastly,

..and I pulled for the French (I've had a soft spot for them ever since someone referred to the French as 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys')

foul, sorry, but it's the truth and that's exactly why I can never pull for the French!


Oh, and I too hate listening to what Marcelo Balboa has to say as an anylist!

[Mr. Ypsi]

SF,

I totally agree with you.  I am really sorry to be posting almost more about refs than matches, but the refs really are stealing the Cup.  I think at least half of the round-of-16 games have been altered by officiating.  I was very impressed with how well the ref kept control of the France-Spain match despite NO cards until fairly late, yet the officiating STILL arguably determined the match.

SOMETHING has got to be done!  Unfortunately, I have no idea what.  Switzerland-Ukraine, for example, had only one yellow - but that was an OVERreaction to the 16 yellow, 4 red, of the day before, since there should have been 3-4 yellows (and one borderline red).

I'll give FIFA credit for one innovation - all refs and ARs must speak the same language, so they can work as a team, but that has proved to be obviously insufficient.  I wonder if it is time for instant replay?

With a running clock, that should obviously be used only for game-altering situations, but in such cases the replay official could probably render a verdict before a PK (or even free kick) is even kicked, or before a 'goal-scoring' team has even stopped celebrating.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

This may sound crazy since Brazil won 3-0, but Ghana was the better team today (I have no doubt Brazil is generally the better team, and probably has a better chance to go deep than Ghana would, but TODAY Ghana out-Brazilled Brazil).

Yes, Ronaldo was offsides.  No, the player was not tripped in the box; he slipped and when he realized he wasn't going to make the ball, he dove.  That one was obvious. (On a side note: I think they could cut down on all of this card madness if they would buck up and actually give more cards for diving.  If players knew there was a 50-50 chance they would get a card for going down erroneously instead of a 95-5 chance, then they might think twice about doing it).  My point is that Brazil is good enough, we can all agree on that, to have actually played better in the second half if they needed to.  If the calls had gone the other way and it was a closer match in the second half, you would have seen a different Brazil.  All of that being said, Ghana played this game exactly as they needed to.  They came out strong, attacked, peppered Dida with shots and their goalie came up big more times than I can remember.  Quality match, they just weren't the equal of Brazil.

France's winning goal was also dubious, IMO.  It came as a direct result of a free kick following a penalty (and yellow card) against Spain.  Again, there alas were no replays, so I'm not absolutely certain, but I'm fairly sure the penalty was called the wrong way.  The French player pushed down the Spaniard, then fell to the ground holding his face.  The ref bought it, but I saw NO contact with the French face and think he took a dive to cover for his own penalty.  IF things played out the same way as, in fact, they did, Zidane's goal would render the result moot.  But of course, if the score had been 1-1 instead of 2-1, things probably would not have played out the same way.

When I saw that play live, I thought for sure Puyol had intentionally elbowed Henry in the face, which worried me, because I figured that would be at least a Red Card, which would have really thrown off the tone of the match.  Upon the review, both players were fighting for the ball, both well within the rules.  Puyol did toss an elbow, although probably more as a clear out move (still a foul, but not card worthy) and caught Henry in the chest.  He just did a fantastic job of selling it.  At that speed and at that angle, there was no way the ref would have know different.  I don't think you can fault him for that.  The main person at fault was whichever Spanish defender decided to run away from Viera and leave the tallest man on the field unmarked on the goal line.  Nothing would have come from that if everyone had stayed with their mark.

By the way, Zindane's goal was incredible.  It will probably be his last in international competition and what a way to go out.  I'm pretty confident in saying he's been the best footballer in the history of the sport.  Some argue "what about Pele?" or some other great.  I respond, it's gotta be a midfielder; strikers miss out on such a huge part of the game to be considered the best ever.  Ronaldinho might get there someday, but right now its Zidane's title.  He led his country to its first ever World Cup and defined a generation both in international and club play.  None of his teams were anything when he wasn't on the pitch.  I don't think France has much chance against Brazil; I think this match was a fitting way for him to go out.  Hopefully we'll see him in MLS in a couple of years.

BTW, Grahame L. Jones of the L.A.Times had a column today arguing that the Italy-Australia result was a FIFA-directed conspiracy as a payback to Italy for the FIFA-directed conspiracy of South Korea over Italy in 2002 (where they were eager to keep the home team in as long as possible).  I'm not big on conspiracy theories (never have been, and Oliver Stone ended any temptations I may ever have had in that direction!), but he actually lays out at least a semi-compelling case.  (Sorry I can't provide a link; being a troglodyte, I actually read it on paper!

I actually read on ESPN where people are saying Silvio Berlusconi bought off the refs to let Italy win the Cup.  The Australia game was so blatant and they tossed one Italian against the Americans so they could be somewhat justified about tossing two Americans.  I'd say its crazy speculation, but with everything going on at Juventus and the fact that Berlusconi is rediculously rich and thinks he's God, it just might be possible.

[Browneagle64]

Ypsi

Your're absolutely right. Most of the refs have been horrible throughout the 1st round. The fact that there were more yellow and red cards issued in the first round just lets you know that there are problems here.

In my opinion, Fifa should let teams "challenge the calls" like they do in the NFL. Sure it would make the games a little longer, but this is the worlds stage that we are talking about.

Germany-Agrentina should be a good game.

The Ghaninans really woke up the brazilains until late in the 1st half. My hats off to that team.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

They are designing a ball that would relay information about location to the refs (ie whether its out of bounds or whether it crossed the goal line).  It was supposed to be ready for this Cup, but didn't make it.

It was also highly controversial.  Much like the hardliners in baseball, most people invovled in football around the world enjoy the human element of the game.  There was very little talk of overall poor officiating in Japan/Korea.  I think we're more in a lull of officiating than that is has truly become worse.  A lot of good refs are getting junked because of the mandatory retirement age of 45.  Pierluigi Collina is probably refing youth soccer in suburban Milan right now, when he should be at the World Cup.  They just need to work on training and helping these guys understand exactly what they are looking for.

[Browneagle64]

Hoops--- You're right. Couldn't have said it any better myself about the refs. I just hope that those that are waiting in line for reffing the 2010 cup will learn from these mistakes and don't repeat them.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

They sent Graham Poll home today.  Which means out of the top five refs from 2002, only one remains: Germany's Markus Merk.  He wasn't assigned to any of the quarterfinal games and he can't ref any of Germany's games.  He didn't have the best showing in the first round either.  I doubt he even sees the field at any point.

Maybe someone really good can emerge from this cup.  We need a new Collina (did you know they even gave away bobble heads of him in Serie A stadiums?)

[Mr. Ypsi]

They are designing a ball that would relay information about location to the refs (ie whether its out of bounds or whether it crossed the goal line).  It was supposed to be ready for this Cup, but didn't make it.

While I would support use of such a ball, it would be irrelevant for all but one of the complaints that have appeared on this board (the likely goal by France vs. S. Korea, where IMO the Korean keeper stopped the ball only after it had totally crossed the line).  All other complaints have involved fouls (or lack thereof), dives (or lack thereof), or offsides (or lack thereof).

Do you have any opinion concerning the feasibility (or desirability) of a replay official?

[Stinger]

Just got home from a 3 day meeting, and just watched the Spain /France game. Oh, Henry, you are now an official member of the infamous flop club.  I lost a ton of respect for him based on that play alone. What a joke.  I love Zizou, but I really hope France flames out Saturday.

Let me ask you guys this, Do you ever see English players go down trying to beg a call?  Hell no. You know when they go down, it's a foul, and if they hold their shin, foot, etc, that there's legitimate pain there.   They play the game right in that aspect.

Tomorrow's Germany, Argentina match should be a beauty. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Everybody sells legitimate fouls.  Henry's was not a dive, in that it wasn't a foul.  When we complain about the Iberians or the South Americans diving, it's because they go down without being fouled.  Milking a call is part of the game and it always has been.  Milking it to the point where they have to bring the stretcher out, that's underhanded, but often you have to sell the call to get the foul.

Henry got hit in the chest, a legitimate foul, but because of the angle, it wouldn't be called if he stayed on his feet.  He went down, got the foul call, which was the right call (the card was probably overkill, but it didn't affect the outcome, so no harm done) and they solidified their lead.

And the English and even the Americans milk those calls, just like anyone else.  Only they pop back up as soon as the call is made.  You can't say that there's enough pain to legitimize guys wincing and grabbing their legs or ankles.  Think about all the contact in the NBA, where guys never show pain unless its tremendously bad.  It's the same way in soccer.  It might hurt, but those guys would never grab their foot unless they were trying to solidify the foul.

Like I said.  Going down untouched is bush league and the Spaniards are kings.  Staying down too long is also bush, and the Africans put on a good display of that at this cup.

I compare it to the two trips to the mound to give the reliever more time to warm up in baseball.  Using that time is an accepted part of the game, but instructing your catcher to go out after every pitch would be over the top.  Managers used to abuse it themselves until they put the two trips rule in.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I guess I missed the question from Ypsi.  I am not in favor of any sort of replay in soccer.  It's not a sport where you have natural stoppages of time (like american "gridiron" football).  You need to keep the game moving as quickly as possible.  I think the best remedy is better trained officials and more cards for diving.  A lot of the poor cards shown in this tournament have come because the refs are letting players get away with diving, so they do it more, making things seem worse and thus producing the cards.  If you have a good, confident official, who is not afraid to stand up to these guys without resorting to cards at every offense, then this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Greek Tragedy]

It's obviously been a little slow on the World Cup stage the last day and today because no games were played.  With the Quarters finally getting on their tomorrow, I hope we can get back to the games!    No offense to anyone here, but I'm getting tired of reading about the refs! lol.

Anyway, my last point about the USA team.  I'm very disappointed about Bruce and his remarks about the MLS.  Four years ago, it was the MLS-based players that helped us get to the quarters and without the MLS the USA would not have been where it was and we wouldn'thave made the quarters without it.  Now, it's the MLS's fault.  He claimed we should have more players playing in Europe if we're going to have a chance in the future. 

What a joke.  The USA team was a bit disappointing in it's performance in the World Cup.  Many of the players didn't show up as expected (Beasley, IMO, deserves the most criticism).  I think with Arena ripping the MLS, though he didn't actually come out and say "MLS", he's looking for a way out.

The reffing has been pretty bad...but I don't think it's been as bad as published.  The real reason it looks so bad is because refs are handing out yellow cards on regular fouls, no break aways, not injury-intended fouls etc...just fouls that happen.  That's the worst part of it.  Granted, there are yellow cards that are deserved, but not the 200+ we've seen.

Good luck this weekend to the eight remaining teams.  I'm still an England fan, so I'll cheer them on no matter how "boring" they might be! (j/k Hoosier Titan).  Germany looks real good, as does Brazil.

Here are my picks.

Germany over Argentina 3-2
Italy over Ukraine 1-0
England over Portugal 1-1 aet (England wins 3-2 PKs)

Game of the Weekend

Brazil over France 2-2 aet (Brazil win 4-2 PKs)

[Hoosier Titan]

In large part, I agree with OS--time to get back to the games.  Withdrawal is hitting hard! 

It's been fun posting here.  I don't post a lot over on the hoops board because, working at one of the D3 schools, I teach the players and I work with the coaches.  It would be uncomfortable if they knew I was going to be posting, so I wouldn't hear as much good dirt!

I think that any sort of replay would really change the nature of soccer.  I, too, am not sure that the reffing has been as bad as people say.  I really felt for the ref in the Portugal-Holland match--that one was just plain nasty from the start. I don't think any of the cards that were given were not deserved.  So if anyone has ideas for how the ref could have gotten control of the match early, please pass them on to Fifa.

One call that really changed a game was the Italy-Australia penalty kick; the Italian clearly just fell over the Aussie.  But there's always going to be one or two like  that.

About the US--I really hate to see a coach call the players out in public.  Maybe sometimes it's necessary, but it makes me uncomfortable and I don't think it works most of the time.  I don't watch enough MLS to know whether it deserves the knocks it's gotten.  There was a pretty scathing piece about Landon Donovan on the ESPN soccernet page; evidently he has said something about being more "comfortable" playing here than in Europe.  The writer took him to task for wanting to be comfortable ahead of becoming a truly great soccer player.  Maybe those who have watched both a lot of MLS and European/South American soccer could say whether that's fair or not. 

Here's hoping the English make it through.  I still feel they are better than they've shown; the whole has definitely been less than the sum of the parts so far.  Perhaps the return of Gary Neville on defense will settle the side.  OS, I don't blame anyone for calling them "boring," although watching these games waiting for England to score is painful to me, not boring.

I am finding it hard to support either Brazil or France; Brazil because of their frontrunner status, and France because of, first, Henry's dive (yes, he was fouled, but he wasn't hit in the head), and second, his comment from earlier in the year that "Maybe next time I'll learn to dive, but I'm not a woman."  So this is one I'd like to see both teams lose.  I think Brazil will prevail.  Italy's led a charmed (protected?) life, but I don't think Ukraine can knock them out.  I pick Argentina over Germany, narrowly.